Your dads not wrong though. What's under the hood during war time half way around the world especially during WWII is probably a very different animal than a museum piece that gets white glove treatment.

(73) Wings Over Dallas Mid-Air Collision 12 Nov. 2022 - YouTube

I will be the first to admit I am biased here. I have been around those guys and watched the training, the professionalism, the attention to detail, the inspections, the briefings and planning etc. etc.

I have helped on maintenance and restoration work and know the level of expertese that the people overseeing and inspecting/performing the work have....and the attention to detail and how meticulous they are in assuring things are done correctly.

You are so right in how on the money as usually they, if they are lucky, just break even at the end of the year on cost.

I have my own oppinion as to what happened....and it is only an oppinion.....My bet is that something medically happened to the P-63 pilot...heart attack, anurism or something that incapacitated him. We may never know.

We can hold on to the fact that they were all doing what they loved to do when they passed.....I hope I am so lucky.

They were truly the greatest generation. Thanks to your family members we still speak English instead of Japanese or German. They literally saved the free world.

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My grandfather flew the China-Burma-India Hump

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That was one of the most dangerous flight assignments in WWII, and not because of enemy action.

My piece on the tragedy

Saturday, there was a tragic loss of a national treasure named "Texas Raiders" at an air show in Dallas. Here's a pilot's perspective on what the loss means. https://t.co/CTeCsIyJAS

— San Angelo Live (@SanAngeloLIVE) November 14, 2022

Just a guess but from flight path info available it appears the P63 got a little wider on his turn than either he or one of the P51s had previously flown. Know I'm stating the obvious but available data still interesting.

Maybe Gunny can opine but guessing the plan for the show was to have fast movers west of the runway center line and B17 on center.

1st image is the P63 last flight I believe. It appears tracking cuts off prior to his turn to final. This is only screenshot I could find on N6763 and that tail num doesn't show up with any results on my FlightRadar app. Scrubbed by NTSB?? Who knows but I believe it shows one north bound pass west of the centerline.


This flight is one of the P51s in the show at the accident time, 5428V. This flight is still available on my app with playback. He makes a couple of north bound passes well west of center. After the accident he heads to Lancaster and lands.



Finally here is the flight path of the B17 on what I believe is a flight just before the accident. Again guessing the actual last flight has been scrubbed. Anyway his north bound show pass is right over the runway and to the east of the above fighter passes.

titan said:

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On the 9/11 thread didn't an Iranian airline go down in a dense urban area after a collision? The risk from airlines is not any less than an air show centered over an airdrome.

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Been plenty of commercial crashes into urban areas. The AA flight ion Queens in 2001, there was another commuter flight that crashed into a house due to ice on wings, and was recently reminded of PSA 182 in San Diego in 1978.

Though I do not recommend for anyone but the morbidly curious, the ending scenes of the original Faces of Death contains unedited footage of the aftermath of PSA 182 crashing into a residential neighborhood. The aftermath of any crash, but particularly airplane crashes is horrific.

Its been pointed out numerous times already, but the risk of death from an airshow incident is extremely remote. No need for COVID lockdowns following an accident like this.

Continue prayers for the friends and families of those lost.

80sGeorge said:

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Just a guess but from flight path info available it appears the P63 got a little wider on his turn than either he or one of the P51s had previously flown. Know I'm stating the obvious but available data still interesting.

Maybe Gunny can opine but guessing the plan for the show was to have fast movers west of the runway center line and B17 on center.

1st image is the P63 last flight I believe. It appears tracking cuts off prior to his turn to final. This is only screenshot I could find on N6763 and that tail num doesn't show up with any results on my FlightRadar app. Scrubbed by NTSB?? Who knows but I believe it shows one north bound pass west of the centerline.

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The tower radio chatter also kept saying N6763. They also initially said it was a p51. I looked it up within 5 min of the incident and there wasnt a record of it. the correct tail number was N6769.


edit: i had that backwards. tower was saying 6769 instead of 6763.

Not finding any records for 6769

This is supposedly a pic of the P63 and I believe N6763 is correct. Doesn't explain why flight data is missing other than NTSB has scrubbed it.




Should say just because my free FlightRadar app doesn't show flights or flight playback for N6763 doesn't mean no info is available. Flightaware does list a record of the final 6 minute flight. Maybe if someone with paid subscription could see if more final flight info is available??

Gunny456 said:

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First off it's aerobatics not acrobatics.
Fun to watch but you can only watch so many hammerheads, split "s", and aileron rolls .....

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I've worked a number of air shows because we had a marketing simulator for our FBW helicopter we were developing.

I saw some bad ass stuff during that time.

Watching an A380 do a slow turn at about a roll angle of 60 deg was crazy. Watching the 787 do a takeoff roll of about 75 degrees was too.

Saw the Su-27 do it's Cobra maneuver.

But, the best was when I saw an F-22 do a thrust vectoring "loop". As an aerospace engineer, it was almost mind boggling.

80sGeorge said:

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Not finding any records for 6769

This is supposedly a pic of the P63 and I believe N6763 is correct. Doesn't explain why flight data is missing other than NTSB has scrubbed it.




Should say just because my free FlightRadar app doesn't show flights or flight playback for N6763 doesn't mean no info is available. Flightaware does list a record of the final 6 minute flight. Maybe if someone with paid subscription could see if more final flight info is available??

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Icould be mistaken, but i don't think the flight tracker websites pick you up unless you've got a flight plan filled with the FAA. Those flights were most likely flown VFR with no filed flight plan. Nothing nefarious.

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Icould be mistaken, but i don't think the flight tracker websites pick you up unless you've got a flight plan filled with the FAA. Those flights were most likely flown VFR with no filed flight plan. Nothing nefarious.

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You are mistaken. Those flight tracker sites use a combo of FAA Radar data, and ADS-B out, which almost every plane has now. Flight plan does not matter. You can even build a Raspberry Pi receiver for about 100 bucks and see the flights yourself.

What you won't see is all the military traffic. Pretty common to see trainers, tankers and transports, even AF1. What is very rare to see are fighters, attack aircraft, and bombers.

https://www.adsbexchange.com/

I believe they pick up all the traffic with ADS-B data whether VFR or IFR. Planes have to have that equipment to operate in the Class B. Planes operating such as these at an airshow would be busting IFR separation minimums.

The P51 track above is from the actual time of the accident.

If you fly a Cub or whatever out of say Brenham and never go in the Class B then sure you won't show up.

is audio available anywhere of the coms from this show? Can a link be posted if so?

Gunny456 said:

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I will be the first to admit I am biased here. I have been around those guys and watched the training, the professionalism, the attention to detail, the inspections, the briefings and planning etc. etc.

I have helped on maintenance and restoration work and know the level of expertese that the people overseeing and inspecting/performing the work have....and the attention to detail and how meticulous they are in assuring things are done correctly.

You are so right in how on the money as usually they, if they are lucky, just break even at the end of the year on cost.

I have my own oppinion as to what happened....and it is only an oppinion.....My bet is that something medically happened to the P-63 pilot...heart attack, anurism or something that incapacitated him. We may never know.

We can hold on to the fact that they were all doing what they loved to do when they passed.....I hope I am so lucky.

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Gunny-

I too have been around the vintage aviation community, but probably not anywhere close to what you have.

My first thought was maybe a medical incident. I just could not believe an experienced pilot would not clear his path before making a sharp turn like that.

Last night, I saw another camera angle from in front of the planes that showed the P38 in formation on the turn with a couple other planes (a huge amount of space between planes, but obvious his path was intentional/choreographed). So now I dont think the P38 was necessarily at fault.

Is it possible the B17 was flying on the wrong line/altitude?

CanyonAg77 said:

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Quote:

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Icould be mistaken, but i don't think the flight tracker websites pick you up unless you've got a flight plan filled with the FAA. Those flights were most likely flown VFR with no filed flight plan. Nothing nefarious.

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You are mistaken. Those flight tracker sites use a combo of FAA Radar data, and ADS-B out, which almost every plane has now. Flight plan does not matter. You can even build a Raspberry Pi receiver for about 100 bucks and see the flights yourself.

What you won't see is all the military traffic. Pretty common to see trainers, tankers and transports, even AF1. What is very rare to see are fighters, attack aircraft, and bombers.

https://www.adsbexchange.com/

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This is correct. I fly VFR a bunch and those ADSB tracking sites ALWAYS find me.

Thanks!

I tried listening in on LiveATC app about 15 mins after and App said the freq was "down"

Just tried going to the archive at LiveATC and the 30 minute file during the crash time is only 10 minutes of white noise.

Tried the previous 30 minute file and it's 30 minutes of same static.

I think just like the flight data the NTSB has this all locked down to protect the innocent I'm sure.

I'm guessing it was a medical issue OR the B-17 was at the wrong place.

As I mentioned earlier, I've been on the engineering team for several of these aircraft. And I too would take a hard pass if offered a ride.

Having been on the design teams for fighters (F-16, 22 & 35), transports (C-17 and 130) and bombers (B-1 & 2) for the last 38 years, getting on a 70 year old airframe to fly around isn't appealing to me at all.

What was the altitude at impact? Is it known or just an estimate?

wbt5845 said:

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I'm guessing it was a medical issue OR the B-17 was at the wrong place.

As I mentioned earlier, I've been on the engineering team for several of these aircraft. And I too would take a hard pass if offered a ride.

Having been on the design teams for fighters (F-16, 22 & 35), transports (C-17 and 130) and bombers (B-1 & 2) for the last 38 years, getting on a 70 year old airframe to fly around isn't appealing to me at all.

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Or the P63 was in the wrong place and didn't see the B17

wbt5845 said:

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I'm guessing it was a medical issue OR the B-17 was at the wrong place.

As I mentioned earlier, I've been on the engineering team for several of these aircraft. And I too would take a hard pass if offered a ride.

Having been on the design teams for fighters (F-16, 22 & 35), transports (C-17 and 130) and bombers (B-1 & 2) for the last 38 years, getting on a 70 year old airframe to fly around isn't appealing to me at all.

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Incline strongly to a sudden medical issue too.

One of the reasons why is the way they just "come together" no last minute wild gyration of the fighter to change course, even if too late. It looked more like how a robot drone would just continue.

Just an impression.

GAC06 said:

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The simplest and most likely explanation is that the pilot that hit the B-17 was fixated on the two aircraft he was following in the turn. He was maneuvering and maintaining altitude, which is completely inconsistent with being incapacitated.

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This.

P-63 pilot was fixated on getting back into position. The P-51 flight's wing he was flying off of turned right, likely with the groundtrack that was briefed. P-63 guy was hauling a** with lots of smash. He was making a lag into the P-51 flight and his belly was up to the B-17 and he didn't see it.

I wonder if the P-51 flight was a "diamond" formation of 3 aircraft? You can't tell from the videos I saw online.

Have to agree with the previous two. P-63 guy appeared to be hauling (butt), faster than the P-51s that went by earlier. Seemed to be puling hard to get back on his line, and possibly the high-G turn was much wider than he intended.

Belly up to the -17, combined with the terrible visibility from that plane, he had no clue where the -17 was.

On review after those posts, agree, this seems extremely plausible. If he hadn't seen the B-17 just prior, he wouldn't see it in the turn.

But what happened to all the preflight briefings and safety protocols etc that everyone earlier on this thread insisted made the CAF totally safe?

If the P-63 did as y'all said, he either slept through those briefings and/or ignored the safety protocols in place, which is supposed to be impossible since all these pilots have 20,000 hours on the stick.

OR - maybe these older pilots (and every one of them appeared over 60) make mistakes, even though they have so many hours under their belt.

1) No one ever said it was totally safe.

2) Humans make mistakes. Film at 11.

This CAF veteran said the mistake you guys are describing can't happen.

Gunny456 said:

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I have been in the CAF for 31 years. Have flown multiple times in the B-17 Texas Raiders.

The flights paths are planned out for each act and formation for each show day. At briefings before each of the shows the flight paths of each aircraft in that act are choreographed and drawn out on a chart. Every pilot is briefed with that. They practice that act many times during the year.

It is not a bunch of random flying around.

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Do you just not understand the meaning of the word "mistake"?

When we brought up pilot error on Saturday, we got lots of lectures on how that wasn't possible.

Pilot error is possible and the likely cause of two perfectly fine planes colliding like that. Surely you have some examples of people saying it's not possible right? Not like above where you claimed that's what was said then offered a quote saying no such thing?

JB!98 said:

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Gunny456 said:

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This is not meant to call you out on this.
The guy flying that Corsair owns many high performance aircraft. He flies some of them in the Reno air races every year. A very accomplished military fighter pilot.
On high humidity days it is not uncommon for a performance prop fighter to display vapor formation off of high lift flight surfaces.
As I have posted those acts are well planned and well briefed before each and every show.
All CAF pilots that fly in the shows have to attend mandatory training and flying every year to be " air show qualified" for any act.
There is a pre flight briefing every morning before the show begins. Each and every flight path and position of each aircraft is drawn out and discussed. FAA reps attend those briefings and approve the flights.
Then there is de briefings after the show that afternoon.
To the crowds the acts and flights might look close or dangerous.... but are well planned and thought out for the upmost of safety.
Accidents certainly can happen and as long as humans are alive there are things that are going to happen.

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Thank you for your reply and I am sorry for the loss of your friends in such a tragic manner. The corsair is has been my favorite plane since the Baa Baa Black Sheep TV series, so was following it around the circuit every time. Not to be argumentative, but what I saw was not a normal part of the show. His exit from the pattern and exit from the show was not a normal. This would have been around 2009-2010 at the big airshow held at Randolph. After the dust settles it would be great if you could ask him about it. I am sure he still remembers it as it is not something I have or will forget.

Once again, not being belligerent by any means. I respect your posts on the outdoor board and depth of knowledge.

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I've been a corsair junky also since Baa Baa Black Sheep. Built an attack formation of 4 models that I hung in my room as a kid. My oldest son loved the Skipper corsair in Disney's Planes (me too). He got to see his first corsair up close at WOH, then even closer on the Midway in San Diego. Then again at WOH. Just the coolest plane ever.

Coincidentally, the RC corsair we ordered just arrived in the mail yesterday.