B-17 Involved in a Midair Collision at Dallas Airshow
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Last: 5 days ago by Eliminatus
Was a CAF B-17. But was Sentimental Journey.
P.H. Dexippus said:
I still find this way too symbolic of what happened this week and the ongoing dismantling and obliteration of the achievements of the Greatest Generation's legacy in this decade.
In the "Parade of Bombers" act, which they have done since the early 80's at the CAF shows there typically is not any close risky manuevers. They merely fly a large circle pattern in trail with the fighters coming by in a straight downwind pattern as well. The Tora Tora Tora act has a lot more going by far than the trailing parade of bombers.
You being a commercial pilot have probably had a lot more traffic in a pattern at a busy airport than what was going on in that act.
For the number of airshows that the CAF has done over the last 4 decades they have a very steller safety record. I dont beleive they have ever had a mid air collision that I can recollect.......and I sure could be wrong....
You being a commercial pilot have probably had a lot more traffic in a pattern at a busy airport than what was going on in that act.
For the number of airshows that the CAF has done over the last 4 decades they have a very steller safety record. I dont beleive they have ever had a mid air collision that I can recollect.......and I sure could be wrong....
I don't think they should be banned. But I do think they are essentially a version of "Hey y'all, watch this!"
You do have a valid point there.
NTSB Member Michael Graham briefs the media on the Nov. 12, mid-air collision between a Boeing B-17G and a Bell P-63F near Dallas, Texas; https://t.co/5NnxWm2mRZ
— NTSB Newsroom (@NTSB_Newsroom) November 13, 2022
Most of those pilots are airline pilots with thousands of hours or military aviation hours, many with combat experience.....highly proffessional in what they do and the flying they do for the CAF. Hardly do they do those shows with a "Hey Watch This Attitude". Imho.. your comment is in very poor taste considering the circumstances...
About 10 years ago, I got to fly the CAF's 2 seater P-51 into formation with one of their B-17's, in Shreveport. It was a highlight of my private flying career. Earlier, I was blessed to fly, as a passenger in the CAF B-17 and in the Collins Foundation's B-24. I also got to fly in a T-6 Texan in a simulated dog fight with another T-6.
Quite a thrill and appreciation of history.
Quite a thrill and appreciation of history.
Last of the Old Army
Awesome! Experiences you will never forget for a lifetime. Well done sir!
I have been to a lot of airshows throughout my life and for the warbird "reenactment" acts like Tora, don't they generally "channelize" the different planes as they fly their paths around the airfield? Meaning to a person watching from the flight line and thus watching the profile of the planes as they fly past it all appears to be very close in a 2 dimensional sense, but if you were to watch from say the end of the runway (or from above looking down on to the airfield) you would see that the planes are all flying down what are essentially channels or lanes adjacent to each other and decently spaced apart, without crossing over in front of each other often if ever.Gunny456 said:
In the "Parade of Bombers" act, which they have done since the early 80's at the CAF shows there typically is not any close risky manuevers. They merely fly a large circle pattern in trail with the fighters coming by in a straight downwind pattern as well. The Tora Tora Tora act has a lot more going by far than the trailing parade of bombers.
You being a commercial pilot have probably had a lot more traffic in a pattern at a busy airport than what was going on in that act.
For the number of airshows that the CAF has done over the last 4 decades they have a very steller safety record. I dont beleive they have ever had a mid air collision that I can recollect.......and I sure could be wrong....
If this is the case, my curiosity is if one of the two planes involved got out of their lane for whatever reason and into the lane of the other plane and if this happened, why?
I follow a lot of warbird and aviation groups on Facebook and I read that the audio from the pilot of the P-63 indicated he was given permission by the Air Boss to overtake the B-17. Not sure how that may or may not have contributed to the situation.
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. It's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill
Sadly is this was an all to common occurrence over the skies of England and Germany during WWII. Many collisions between planes as hundreds of aircraft filled the skies to head in bombing runs against the Axis. There's a reason more men were killed in the air over Europe than the USMC lost fighting the Japanese. Deadly enemy and any mishap was potentially a 10 man crew going down
You are correct sir. In the Tora act that is how it is planned and briefed as you described.
The other acts : Arsenal of Democracy, Parade of Trainers and Liasion, Parade of Bombers, Battle of Midway, Hell Rained Down on Hitler, etc. ..... all of them are choreographed and planned that same way.
The " Parade" acts are simple trailing flight paths down the center of the designated " air show box".... while maintaining safe designated spacing from the plane in front of you. They are even grouped by capable air speeds so you don't have fast planes overtaking slow planes.
I myself have flown my L bird in the show in Harlingen and our flight path was briefed as to holding a designated altitude and flying down the center of the runway while maintaining standard VFR and safe spacing in a trailing pattern.
Pretty simple and safe.
The other acts : Arsenal of Democracy, Parade of Trainers and Liasion, Parade of Bombers, Battle of Midway, Hell Rained Down on Hitler, etc. ..... all of them are choreographed and planned that same way.
The " Parade" acts are simple trailing flight paths down the center of the designated " air show box".... while maintaining safe designated spacing from the plane in front of you. They are even grouped by capable air speeds so you don't have fast planes overtaking slow planes.
I myself have flown my L bird in the show in Harlingen and our flight path was briefed as to holding a designated altitude and flying down the center of the runway while maintaining standard VFR and safe spacing in a trailing pattern.
Pretty simple and safe.
91AggieLawyer said:
This is going to be unpopular, if not downright insensitive, but it isn't meant that way. I'm not a fan of airshows and I think they shouldn't exist. Ever since the one in Germany in '87 or '88 where 70 or 80 people died, I've said these things are dangerous. If they're going to exist, they need to be one plane at a time.
Yes, these accidents are rare, but they're always fatal and have the added risk of ground casualties.
I agree I am Persian full of freedom so I'm not for outright bands but why do you have these they're extremely dangerous one minor error causes deaths
I guess they have the right to make money like everybody else but I don't know.
As the one person said it makes a lot more sense to have 1 airplane or have the maneuvers be far separating each other
IMO, a reasonable analysis.
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
in our soft society- imagine what you just saw happening OVER 500 TIMES.fire09 said:
It's really hard to tell from that angle, but my guess is the mustang pilot likely never saw the 17 until it was too late to correct.
He appeared to be in a higher angle turn, meaning b17 would be obstructed by nose and wings.
Tragic.
except there would be 10 men in each B-17.
because that's the reality from 1941-45.
Yep. People talk in disbelief about Japanese pilots flying to their certain deaths. Bombers crews had to make their 25 (I think?) runs before they could cycle out. With attrition rates at times as high as 25%/sortie, they knew the odds were almost a guarantee that they'd get hit, yet they flew anyway.LMCane said:in our soft society- imagine what you just saw happening OVER 500 TIMES.fire09 said:
It's really hard to tell from that angle, but my guess is the mustang pilot likely never saw the 17 until it was too late to correct.
He appeared to be in a higher angle turn, meaning b17 would be obstructed by nose and wings.
Tragic.
except there would be 10 men in each B-17.
because that's the reality from 1941-45.
Thank god for the P-51 and it's extended range.
Nobody cares. Work Harder
The CAF is a flying museum that is dedicated to the restoring and flying of these vintage aircraft. It also is a education based organization to teach our generations about our history and to perpetuate the memory of the sacrifices that have been made by so many.
It is not a profit based business. The cost of producing and putting on those air shows is hardly a large profit event considering the cost involved in putting on the shows.
I know I am biased in my opinion but the safety record of the CAF over 4 decades of shows is remarkable.
6 Souls perished in the tragedy.... so now an outcry of some to "OMG ban these shows",
Or fly one plane at a time etc etc... while we kill 3800 people a year with texting while driving and triple that in auto accidents every year in the US.
So surely we should maybe only allow one car per stretch of Highway at a time and ban cell phones totally if in a vehicle.
Accidents happen. You can't sterilize life so they don't.
As Canyon said. More folks are killed by cows than air show accidents....
It is not a profit based business. The cost of producing and putting on those air shows is hardly a large profit event considering the cost involved in putting on the shows.
I know I am biased in my opinion but the safety record of the CAF over 4 decades of shows is remarkable.
6 Souls perished in the tragedy.... so now an outcry of some to "OMG ban these shows",
Or fly one plane at a time etc etc... while we kill 3800 people a year with texting while driving and triple that in auto accidents every year in the US.
So surely we should maybe only allow one car per stretch of Highway at a time and ban cell phones totally if in a vehicle.
Accidents happen. You can't sterilize life so they don't.
As Canyon said. More folks are killed by cows than air show accidents....
LMCane said:in our soft society- imagine what you just saw happening OVER 500 TIMES.fire09 said:
It's really hard to tell from that angle, but my guess is the mustang pilot likely never saw the 17 until it was too late to correct.
He appeared to be in a higher angle turn, meaning b17 would be obstructed by nose and wings.
Tragic.
except there would be 10 men in each B-17.
because that's the reality from 1941-45.
I've seen estimates that as many as 15,000 men and women (WASPs) were killed in stateside training and transport accidents during WWII.
A hazardous and unforgiving profession, especially using 1930s-1040s technology, as we were then.
Holy moly. Brings it into perspective for sure. Thanks for sharing.
Quote:
6 Souls perished in the tragedy.... so now an outcry of some to "OMG ban these shows",
Or fly one plane at a time etc etc... while we kill 3800 people a year with texting while driving and triple that in auto accidents every year in the US.
I've probably overshared that our daughter flies Vipers for the USAF. She's been a student in Diamond aircraft, T-6 Texan IIs, and 50-year-old T-38s. instructed primary pilots in T-6s, done IFF in old T-38s, trained in F-16s, and served two tours in F-16 squadrons. About 1500 hours so far, mostly in high-performance aircraft.
Obviously we worry about her all the time.
But what incident came closest to killing her? A drunk driver on an Alabama highway.
Humans really are lousy at understanding risk.
When I went to Flight Safety Officer school in the Air Force they briefed us that more aircrew lives were lost in training than in combat in WW2. It's one of the primary reasons the Air Force Safety Agency was created.CanyonAg77 said:LMCane said:in our soft society- imagine what you just saw happening OVER 500 TIMES.fire09 said:
It's really hard to tell from that angle, but my guess is the mustang pilot likely never saw the 17 until it was too late to correct.
He appeared to be in a higher angle turn, meaning b17 would be obstructed by nose and wings.
Tragic.
except there would be 10 men in each B-17.
because that's the reality from 1941-45.
I've seen estimates that as many as 15,000 men and women (WASPs) were killed in stateside training and transport accidents during WWII.
A hazardous and unforgiving profession, especially using 1930s-1040s technology, as we were then.
I forgot, was she ever able to fly again after that?
Thanks for asking. Was out of the cockpit for 18 months, fought her way back in. Completed F-16 B School and two different Viper squadrons since. Right ankle will never be the same (compound fracture right above the ankle) where she was cramming on the brake at impact.The Fife said:
I forgot, was she ever able to fly again after that?
She's tougher than I ever could be.
My wife had her right ankle broken the same way, foot on the brake pedal. Had several surgeries, tried an ankle replacement surgery that didn't work for her, had to get an ankle fusion.
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
New World Ag said:
My wife had her right ankle broken the same way, foot on the brake pedal. Had several surgeries, tried an ankle replacement surgery that didn't work for her, had to get an ankle fusion.
Our daughter thinks she might have been better off had the surgeon in the ER simply amputated, rather than tried to fix the bones.
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CanyonAg77 said:LMCane said:in our soft society- imagine what you just saw happening OVER 500 TIMES.fire09 said:
It's really hard to tell from that angle, but my guess is the mustang pilot likely never saw the 17 until it was too late to correct.
He appeared to be in a higher angle turn, meaning b17 would be obstructed by nose and wings.
Tragic.
except there would be 10 men in each B-17.
because that's the reality from 1941-45.
I've seen estimates that as many as 15,000 men and women (WASPs) were killed in stateside training and transport accidents during WWII.
A hazardous and unforgiving profession, especially using 1930s-1040s technology, as we were then.
My dad was Airborne and performed aircraft maintenance at Bad Tolz during early Vietnam era. He is a huge WWII and airplane buff.
I offered him one of these tourist flights as a gift and he told me hard pass. He knows what is under the hood of many of these antique aircrafts and would prefer to admire them while parked safely on the tarmac.
New World Ag said:
IMO, a reasonable analysis.
This guy misses some concepts that make me question his understanding of aviation. It seems like the P-63 got sucked and with a much less capable aircraft was trying to catch up. As someone else mentioned, he may have crossed the centerline or other demarcation between the bombers and fighters. If the air boss told him to overtake the B-17, that's another complicating factor.
I've read that in multiple histories, as well.AgNav93 said:When I went to Flight Safety Officer school in the Air Force they briefed us that more aircrew lives were lost in training than in combat in WW2. It's one of the primary reasons the Air Force Safety Agency was created.CanyonAg77 said:LMCane said:in our soft society- imagine what you just saw happening OVER 500 TIMES.fire09 said:
It's really hard to tell from that angle, but my guess is the mustang pilot likely never saw the 17 until it was too late to correct.
He appeared to be in a higher angle turn, meaning b17 would be obstructed by nose and wings.
Tragic.
except there would be 10 men in each B-17.
because that's the reality from 1941-45.
I've seen estimates that as many as 15,000 men and women (WASPs) were killed in stateside training and transport accidents during WWII.
A hazardous and unforgiving profession, especially using 1930s-1040s technology, as we were then.
In addition, I suspect that more aircrew lives were lost in theater due to mechanical issues rather than in combat. In my uncle's squadron that flew off of Guadalcanal, only one or two pilots survived the war. In reading the squadron's war diary, most of the deaths were due to mechanical failures. It occurred to me that in those days aircraft were simply not very reliable, and the pilots and were flying them over hundreds of miles of open ocean where any significant mechanical failure was essentially a death sentence. Even if you successfully bailed out, you'd just be floating in the middle of hundreds of miles of open ocean with virtually no hope of rescue.
For example, my uncle died because his radio receiver quit working. He was separated from his squadron by a storm (during an attack on Rendova if memory serves me right), night set in, and he was able to locate a nearby island with a Marine pilot stationed on it with a radio to help out pilots such as my uncle. That pilot called me sometime in the 90s to tell me that he had heard my uncle radioing for guidance assistance and tried to respond, but it was clear that my uncle could not hear him. The rest of the squadron heard the exchange as well. The pilot on the ground could also hear my uncle's plane circling overhead and then eventually heading off in the general direction of Guadalcanal. My uncle was never seen or heard from again. The gentleman who called me was weeping as he recounted those events over the phone.
BTW, my uncle started at A&M but dropped out to fly. He was class of '41 or '42, I believe.
And of perhaps some interest, we have my uncle's letters back to my grandmother. It appears that most of the pilots despised Pappy Boyington. It was so bad that my uncle's tentmate, who almost made it to the end of the war and was an ace himself, beat the crap out of Boyington after they had all returned from some raid.
You can never "overshare" to us on here about your daughter! And that DNA in her that came from you, her dad, has a lot to do with who she is.....and her tenacity to survive and succeed. Sounds like quite the young lady and you absolutely should be proud of her. A lot of us on here are because of our association with you for sure.
You are blessed my friend!
You are blessed my friend!
Thank your dad for his service sir.
Many, if not all, of the aircraft have very low time engines in them and are built now to a much higher standard and care than the mass produced engines during the 1940's. The airframes are meticously restored/rebuilt/inspected before ever getting a sniff of a Airworthiness Certificate.
My dad was an AP Mechanic then a crew cheif on B-25's during WWII. We could not keep him outa flying in the CAF birds of any type. He worked on many restorations and knew of the care and attention to fine detail that is prevelant in those restorations and felt very confident in the work.
I owned and flew a Interstate L-6 that was built in November of 1943 that has been completety restored and low time. I felt a lot safer flying her than I did my 1990 vintage PA-28 Piper Warrior that only had 1560 hours on it.
Guess it depends on the mind set.
Many, if not all, of the aircraft have very low time engines in them and are built now to a much higher standard and care than the mass produced engines during the 1940's. The airframes are meticously restored/rebuilt/inspected before ever getting a sniff of a Airworthiness Certificate.
My dad was an AP Mechanic then a crew cheif on B-25's during WWII. We could not keep him outa flying in the CAF birds of any type. He worked on many restorations and knew of the care and attention to fine detail that is prevelant in those restorations and felt very confident in the work.
I owned and flew a Interstate L-6 that was built in November of 1943 that has been completety restored and low time. I felt a lot safer flying her than I did my 1990 vintage PA-28 Piper Warrior that only had 1560 hours on it.
Guess it depends on the mind set.
Gunny456 said:
Thank your dad for his service sir.
Many, if not all, of the aircraft have very low time engines in them and are built now to a much higher standard and care than the mass produced engines during the 1940's. The airframes are meticously restored/rebuilt/inspected before ever getting a sniff of a Airworthiness Certificate.
My dad was an AP Mechanic then a crew cheif on B-25's during WWII. We could not keep him outa flying in the CAF birds of any type. He worked on many restorations and knew of the care and attention to fine detail that is prevelant in those restorations and felt very confident in the work.
I owned and flew a Interstate L-6 that was built in November of 1943 that has been completety restored and low time. I felt a lot safer flying her than I did my 1990 vintage PA-28 Piper Warrior that only had 1560 hours on it.
Guess it depends on the mind set.
Gunny thanks for pointing all this out. It can be frustrating to read some of the opinions on this incident or on warbirds in general by folks that don't realize they are held to the same standards as everything else in the air. I'm sure anyone who thinks these performances are done for money would be shocked if they were around when the typical Annual bill was due. Further to your point, of all the old planes out there, CAF and similar orgs probably have the most experienced staff and pilots supporting them.
It does not take a lot of modern tech, outside of the required transponder, to fly an oval pattern just above an airport. Would be surprised if the NTSB found a mechanical reason for this incident.
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I do understand that these aircraft are meticulously maintained. I was surprised at the time of my dad's response. Now that he is 81 he is kinda fratchety. :-)
My grandfather flew the China-Burma-India Hump and my great-uncle flew a P-47 on D-day. I could not be more proud of the bravery and brass cojones possessed by this generation of flyers under any circumstance. With gratitude, they both lived to a ripe old age.
My grandfather flew the China-Burma-India Hump and my great-uncle flew a P-47 on D-day. I could not be more proud of the bravery and brass cojones possessed by this generation of flyers under any circumstance. With gratitude, they both lived to a ripe old age.