Despite the issues with altitude rules it sounds like the bomber may have been out of position, or the P63, or both. Either way there wasn't 500 ft horizontal separation obviously.

What issues with the altitude rules?

Last para above- no defined altitude deconfliction plans

P63 told to be on 500' line, bombers the 1000'

I'm guessing the 500 is closer to spectators??

Loop of the ADSB flight paths. Could be totally wrong but looks like the P63 was wide, or wider than the fighter (P51?) ahead of him. OR the B17 was in the wrong spot and should have been to the west.

Aggie Jurist said:

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Said there was no defined altitude deconfliction plan and that the air boss told the p63 pilot to overtake the bomber formation.

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Which confirms what Gryder said earlier - that the P63 was told to overtake by the air boss.

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I looked through all of the Gryder "ProbableCause" videos and cannot find where he talks about the air boss.

There is only one mention of the Dallas Air Show when he dismissed the drone theory and said he wasn't going to talk more about the incident.

I have flown in the CAF show in the act that is the same pattern and is called the parade of trainers and Liasion aircraft. Slower planes to the Inside or closest to spectator line and faster planes to outside and maintain distance. 1000' feet from the crowd line for slow planes and an additional 500' or total of 1500 for the faster planes.
That was down in Harlingen years back and at Wings over Houston show.
Odd that it would be different at the Dallas show.... but I don't know.

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I looked through all of the Gryder "ProbableCause" videos and cannot find where he talks about the air boss.

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Gryder pulls his videos after a few days. His first video on this accident showed video of the briefing and discussed the instruction to the P63 to overtake.

Gunny456 said:

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I have flown in the CAF show in the act that is the same pattern and is called the parade of trainers and Liasion aircraft. Slower planes to the Inside or closest to spectator line and faster planes to outside and maintain distance. 1000' feet from the crowd line for slow planes and an additional 500' or total of 1500 for the faster planes.
That was down in Harlingen years back and at Wings over Houston show.
Odd that it would be different at the Dallas show.... but I don't know.

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The racetrack at Wings Over Dallas was away from the spectators not around the spectators. Would that be why? Seems like perhaps the plan is to put slower planes in the inside of the racetrack turns and fast planes in the outside of the turns?

Gryder pulls those videos after a few days so he doesn't get sued. I follow him because it's like a slow motion train wreck I have to watch. He isn't always wrong, he ain't always right- but either way he's all in and totally emphatic. He will absolutely jump to conclusions and call people out - right or wrong - to the point he gets cease and desist orders from people's attorneys.

He did have a video a week or two ago where he called out the air boss and then continued on in his normal fashion with a fair amount of speculation about how he got his job and his qualifications.

Centerpole90 said:

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Gryder pulls those videos after a few days so he doesn't get sued. I follow him because it's like a slow motion train wreck I have to watch. He isn't always wrong, he ain't always right- but either way he's all in and totally emphatic. He will absolutely jump to conclusions and call people out - right or wrong - to the point he gets cease and desist orders from people's attorneys.

He did have a video a week or two ago where he called out the air boss and then continued on in his normal fashion with a fair amount of speculation about how he got his job and his qualifications.

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You mean AQP is total BS? lol

I have no idea, I'm not a pilot, but he does seem to have GA safety as a genuine goal. I was referring more to his dust-ups with Remnant Fellowship Church, Valiant Air Command (TBM ditching), and EAA (said he was asked to leave or left Air Venture in a spat - but never produced a promised video with detials). By his own admission each of those resulted in legal correspondence.

Makes sense.

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I have no idea, I'm not a pilot, but he does seem to have GA safety as a genuine goal. I was referring more to his dust-ups with Remnant Fellowship Church, Valiant Air Command (TBM ditching), and EAA (said he was asked to leave or left Air Venture in a spat - but never produced a promised video with detials). By his own admission each of those resulted in legal correspondence.

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Hadn't heard about the Airventure incident, but I for one appreciate him going out on a limb. He is genuinely concerned about GA safety and AQP is actually a very good program.

Aggie Jurist said:

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Quote:

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I have no idea, I'm not a pilot, but he does seem to have GA safety as a genuine goal. I was referring more to his dust-ups with Remnant Fellowship Church, Valiant Air Command (TBM ditching), and EAA (said he was asked to leave or left Air Venture in a spat - but never produced a promised video with detials). By his own admission each of those resulted in legal correspondence.

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Hadn't heard about the Airventure incident, but I for one appreciate him going out on a limb. He is genuinely concerned about GA safety and AQP is actually a very good program.

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Gryder is a tool. He gets some things right by accident and refuses to entertain anything that contradicts his assertions. He crashed a guy's 150 into a corn field outside Oshkosh in front of a ton of people. Of course it wasn't his fault…

Pinochet said:

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Aggie Jurist said:

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Quote:

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I have no idea, I'm not a pilot, but he does seem to have GA safety as a genuine goal. I was referring more to his dust-ups with Remnant Fellowship Church, Valiant Air Command (TBM ditching), and EAA (said he was asked to leave or left Air Venture in a spat - but never produced a promised video with detials). By his own admission each of those resulted in legal correspondence.

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Hadn't heard about the Airventure incident, but I for one appreciate him going out on a limb. He is genuinely concerned about GA safety and AQP is actually a very good program.

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Gryder is a tool. He gets some things right by accident and refuses to entertain anything that contradicts his assertions. He crashed a guy's 150 into a corn field outside Oshkosh in front of a ton of people. Of course it wasn't his fault…

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Was it a part of his demonstration of AQP?

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Gryder is a tool. He gets some things right by accident and refuses to entertain anything that contradicts his assertions. He crashed a guy's 150 into a corn field outside Oshkosh in front of a ton of people. Of course it wasn't his fault…

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Wasn't that a staged crash?

Good analysis from a retired USAF pilot.


In the comments below this video on YouTube you can read:

Quote:

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Juan, just to give some further context to your excellent reporting, the Air Boss was brand new. This was his first air show as the "Air Boss" and is the son of the former air boss who had retired the year before after a lengthy career as the Wings over Dallas Air Show air boss. According to pilots that were in the briefing prior to the show that day, they report that the briefing was lacking in various substantive and vital information such as altitude deconfliction yet no one including a FAA representative that was in attendance raised any concern about the inadequatenes of the briefing by this new air boss.

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:
Said there was no defined altitude deconfliction plan and that the air boss told the p63 pilot to overtake the bomber formation.

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Aggie Jurist said:
Which confirms what Gryder said earlier - that the P63 was told to overtake by the air boss.I looked through all of the Gryder "ProbableCause" videos and cannot find where he talks about the air

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Say what you will about Gryder, he was correct.

sanangelo said:

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Pinochet said:

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Aggie Jurist said:

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Quote:

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I have no idea, I'm not a pilot, but he does seem to have GA safety as a genuine goal. I was referring more to his dust-ups with Remnant Fellowship Church, Valiant Air Command (TBM ditching), and EAA (said he was asked to leave or left Air Venture in a spat - but never produced a promised video with detials). By his own admission each of those resulted in legal correspondence.

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Hadn't heard about the Airventure incident, but I for one appreciate him going out on a limb. He is genuinely concerned about GA safety and AQP is actually a very good program.

---

Gryder is a tool. He gets some things right by accident and refuses to entertain anything that contradicts his assertions. He crashed a guy's 150 into a corn field outside Oshkosh in front of a ton of people. Of course it wasn't his fault…

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Was it a part of his demonstration of AQP?

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Also not a fan of Flowers. In the soup going into Madison years ago he was in front of me on the approach and told the controller he would maintain best forward speed and immediately slowed down to 65 knots. Caused everyone to get jammed up and some to have to get resequenced because "Mr Aviation" couldn't maintain reasonable forward speed on an ILS to a long ass runway where he was going to break out 500 feet above the minimums anyway.

Gryder is still an ******* who can't admit when he's wrong. He jumps to conclusions on things and won't entertain the idea that he could possibly be off base. After all, he's a big bad airline captain/check airman.

Pinochet said:

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sanangelo said:

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Pinochet said:

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Aggie Jurist said:

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Quote:

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I have no idea, I'm not a pilot, but he does seem to have GA safety as a genuine goal. I was referring more to his dust-ups with Remnant Fellowship Church, Valiant Air Command (TBM ditching), and EAA (said he was asked to leave or left Air Venture in a spat - but never produced a promised video with detials). By his own admission each of those resulted in legal correspondence.

---

Hadn't heard about the Airventure incident, but I for one appreciate him going out on a limb. He is genuinely concerned about GA safety and AQP is actually a very good program.

---

Gryder is a tool. He gets some things right by accident and refuses to entertain anything that contradicts his assertions. He crashed a guy's 150 into a corn field outside Oshkosh in front of a ton of people. Of course it wasn't his fault…

---

Was it a part of his demonstration of AQP?

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Also not a fan of Flowers. In the soup going into Madison years ago he was in front of me on the approach and told the controller he would maintain best forward speed and immediately slowed down to 65 knots. Caused everyone to get jammed up and some to have to get resequenced because "Mr Aviation" couldn't maintain reasonable forward speed on an ILS to a long ass runway where he was going to break out 500 feet above the minimums anyway.

Gryder is still an ******* who can't admit when he's wrong. He jumps to conclusions on things and won't entertain the idea that he could possibly be off base. After all, he's a big bad airline captain/check airman.

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Flowers is just a kid but he needs to get a real flying job so he can gain more experience. A C-172 can't fly much faster than 65 KIAS, no?

I flew into Madison at night in my Mooney this summer to meet up with the Mooney caravan. I have 1000s of hours flying Buffs out of KSAW in the UP. I forgot how bright the "Battlestar Galactica" runway lights were at MSN until I turned them up (tower was closed). The lights are like that to land the airliners during blizzards. It was so darn bright that I flared high. Landing stunk. No one saw it though, so I'm good.

sanangelo said:

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Pinochet said:

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sanangelo said:

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Pinochet said:

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Aggie Jurist said:

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Quote:

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I have no idea, I'm not a pilot, but he does seem to have GA safety as a genuine goal. I was referring more to his dust-ups with Remnant Fellowship Church, Valiant Air Command (TBM ditching), and EAA (said he was asked to leave or left Air Venture in a spat - but never produced a promised video with detials). By his own admission each of those resulted in legal correspondence.

---

Hadn't heard about the Airventure incident, but I for one appreciate him going out on a limb. He is genuinely concerned about GA safety and AQP is actually a very good program.

---

Gryder is a tool. He gets some things right by accident and refuses to entertain anything that contradicts his assertions. He crashed a guy's 150 into a corn field outside Oshkosh in front of a ton of people. Of course it wasn't his fault…

---

Was it a part of his demonstration of AQP?

---

Also not a fan of Flowers. In the soup going into Madison years ago he was in front of me on the approach and told the controller he would maintain best forward speed and immediately slowed down to 65 knots. Caused everyone to get jammed up and some to have to get resequenced because "Mr Aviation" couldn't maintain reasonable forward speed on an ILS to a long ass runway where he was going to break out 500 feet above the minimums anyway.

Gryder is still an ******* who can't admit when he's wrong. He jumps to conclusions on things and won't entertain the idea that he could possibly be off base. After all, he's a big bad airline captain/check airman.

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Flowers is just a kid but he needs to get a real flying job so he can gain more experience. A C-172 can't fly much faster than 65 KIAS, no?

I flew into Madison at night in my Mooney this summer to meet up with the Mooney caravan. I have 1000s of hours flying Buffs out of KSAW in the UP. I forgot how bright the "Battlestar Galactica" runway lights were at MSN until I turned them up (tower was closed). The lights are like that to land the airliners during blizzards. It was so darn bright that I flared high. Landing stunk. No one saw it though, so I'm good.

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I have a PA24-260 and installed one of these on my plane. Excellent device for night flights. Very easy installation.

https://landingheight.com/

His 172 was doing 100 knots until he was told maintain best forward speed.

sanangelo said:

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Good analysis from a retired USAF pilot.


In the comments below this video on YouTube you can read:

Quote:

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Juan, just to give some further context to your excellent reporting, the Air Boss was brand new. This was his first air show as the "Air Boss" and is the son of the former air boss who had retired the year before after a lengthy career as the Wings over Dallas Air Show air boss. According to pilots that were in the briefing prior to the show that day, they report that the briefing was lacking in various substantive and vital information such as altitude deconfliction yet no one including a FAA representative that was in attendance raised any concern about the inadequatenes of the briefing by this new air boss.

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why wouldn't it be SOP for each plane to maintain it's various altitudes the entire time once they start the show?

so the P-51 is always at 2000, the B-17 always at 1000, the P-36 always at 500 during the maneuvers?

wouldn't that have saved everyone?

Pinochet said:

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His 172 was doing 100 knots until he was told maintain best forward speed.

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Yeah, it's a 172, not a Cub

I sold a plane to a guy that's friends with that Flowers guy, he was shocked I had never heard of him. I'm not much for watching videos, especially all the aviation stuff, so I'm behind the times. In another small world type thing, my Uncle flew with Blancolirio in the Air Force and had some funny stories about messing with him.

That would certainly be safer but it's an air show and for the folks on the ground a P51 at 2000 ft isn't near as impressive as one at 500 or even 1000.

I guess that's the big challenge that failed the test here - one of mixing together bombers doing 125 kts with fighters doing 150-200 kts.

I keep going back to the horizontal separation rules and who was supposed to be on the 1000 ft from spectator line and who was supposed to be on the 500 or 1500 or whatever line.

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I keep going back to the horizontal separation rules and who was supposed to be on the 1000 ft from spectator line and who was supposed to be on the 500 or 1500 or whatever line.

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Watch Juan's video - he answers that question for you.

As for the minimum distance from spectator lines, how do the Blue Angels get away with their low sneak pass above the display runway at WOH, which is may 50 yards from the fence (probably less)?

Awesome. Thanks. Wasn't aware he had a 12/1 update.

Sounds like the Boss approved a lane change.

not looking good for the air boss

wbt5845 said:

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But what happened to all the preflight briefings and safety protocols etc that everyone earlier on this thread insisted made the CAF totally safe?

If the P-63 did as y'all said, he either slept through those briefings and/or ignored the safety protocols in place, which is supposed to be impossible since all these pilots have 20,000 hours on the stick.

OR - maybe these older pilots (and every one of them appeared over 60) make mistakes, even though they have so many hours under their belt.

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turns out the air boss was winging it, basically. it wasn't briefed.

Maybe I missed it, but was any of this actually rehearsed beforehand or was it all just made up on the spot?

The Fife said:

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Maybe I missed it, but was any of this actually rehearsed beforehand or was it all just made up on the spot?

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Watch part of Blancolirio's video list night. The rough outline was briefed and the paths were briefed, but apparently the air boss was making up most of it as he went

Investigation completed
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/CEN23MA034.aspx

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