First off it's aerobatics not acrobatics.
Fun to watch but you can only watch so many hammerheads, split "s", and aileron rolls .....

Growing up my dad worked with another fella that lived in town who worked with the CAF and were restoring one of these old bombers, pretty sure it was a B-29 though as he was working on the plexiglass for the nose "bubble". Ever since I have always tried to make it to an airshow or see one of these old birds flying around.

Prayers for these folks and their families. And I also grieve for the loss of the aircraft.

For those criticizing whether airshows are safe or should be discontinued, cut back to single plane flyovers, you are ignoring or failing to grasp why we have these, particularly with the war planes.

The airshows provide an education to the public and an inspiration to our youth by displaying our technical capabilities with flight. With the warbirds, it demonstrates the might of our military and strengthens our sense of national pride. Think about the Thunderbirds and Blue Angels flyovers during COVID.

It also provides a glimpse into important moments of our past. Particularly with the CAF and the Tora! Tora! Tora! reenactments. Standing on the tarmac at Ellington Field during many Octobers and hearing those thundering props and explosions was awesome and humbling.

And all that aside, its just really f-ing cool to see these planes up close.

I hope that instead of calling for an end to these it results in renewed interest in preserving and remembering the sacrifices of the Greatest Generation.

CanyonAg77 said:

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Posts here and elsewhere decry the danger and needless deaths.

I can only say, life is risky. And airplanes scare people because 99.99% ride in the back, and have no control over what happens. Add to that the fear of falling, innate to humans. And when you have a public crash like this, fear goes into overdrive.

Just because it's on video and involves airplanes, does not make it less horrific than a crash on the highway with the same death toll.

Single digits of people die in a scary crash on video, and you get calls for ending air shows.

On average, 118 people die every single day in car crashes, and it's an accepted cost of living in a modern culture.

That's the equivalent of two 747's crashing, with no survivors, every week.

Heck three times as many people are killed by cows each year, as died in Dallas.

It's tragic, but let's be reasonable.

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(Italics) Good Lord. Its a good thing that is not dashboarded.

On the bold: What? How -- falling on them? Exceeded the deaths in Dallas?

Are you asking about deaths by cattle? It's pretty much a factor of humans having to work with animals that weigh 1,000+ pounds, and are amazingly strong. I've tried to hold a young calf, and unless you tie it up, it's going to take 3-4 grown men to hold it.

They trample, they head butt, the ones with horns can gore you. Heck, simply getting between a pipe fence and an animal that outweighs you 5:1 is dangerous, even if they aren't intentionally trying to hurt you.

Back to traffic deaths, here's a date to remember: November 7, 2000.

That's the last day Texas went an entire day without a traffic death somewhere in the state.

CanyonAg77 said:

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Are you asking about deaths by cattle? It's pretty much a factor of humans having to work with animals that weigh 1,000+ pounds, and are amazingly strong. I've tried to hold a young calf, and unless you tie it up, it's going to take 3-4 grown men to hold it.

They trample, they head butt, the ones with horns can gore you. Heck, simply getting between a pipe fence and an animal that outweighs you 5:1 is dangerous, even if they aren't intentionally trying to hurt you.

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I understand. And the perils of working with them, just like with horses, I knew.

It was the figure outsripping Dallas deaths that amazed. Its 122 killing alone, and that is not even the accidents in homes, etc.

Not trying to be confusing. About 22 people are killed by cattle each year in the US. So 7 deaths in Dallas yesterday, vs, 22 per year.

And the 118 a day in car crashes is really scary, in a lot of ways. Driving is still pretty safe if you're sober, good weather, and your vehicle is good. But all it takes is one drunk or inattentive idiot, and you may become a statistic, even doing everything right.

I understand that everything is a risk. That's why we take calculated risks. Flying in formation / near other aircraft while performing high speed aerobatic maneuvers isn't managing these risks well. We have a B-17 cut down in half to as an example why that isn't the best idea. Too little room for error. I SUPPORT their right to do so at their own risk and no risk to others.

Already debating cow deaths vs air show deaths?

The normal F16 off ramp has been taken.

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I SUPPORT their right to do so at their own risk and no risk to others that choose to waive that risk of thier own will in turn.

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Italics addition is crucial. Same reason want to be able to ascend a volcano if decide to.

Was lucky enough to work on Col. Thayer's F4U many years ago. Great team that maintained that lovely aircraft.

Also got to consult on the rebuild of the Me262 that's out on the circuit now. Great aircraft and many dedicated people finally got that thing in the air.

Yeah, air shows are risky flying old aircraft around. And yesterday was a great example of that. The guys who do it accept those risks.

wbt5845 said:

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Was lucky enough to work on Col. Thayer's F4U many years ago. Great team that maintained that lovely aircraft.

Also got to consult on the rebuild of the Me262 that's out on the circuit now. Great aircraft and many dedicated people finally got that thing in the air.

Yeah, air shows are risky flying old aircraft around. And yesterday was a great example of that. The guys who do it accept those risks.

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Which in fact were always present. Martin Irons book gives plenty of insight into that. Aircraft in general, but Corsairs especially require a definite patient and respectful handling of their power. Not unlike horses.

Can remember them wringing out the P-51 over the Mercedes rodeo grounds, must have been around '58.

I would catch SW to Harlingen on a Sat. for the CAF show, spend the day and back home on SW that evening. One of my '83 photos has Fifi w/ 2 P-51 escorts, I understand the command pilot that trip was Paul Tibbets. So those 'old' guys were active- would have liked to have met Tex Hill.

Hope they keep flying.

Good post.

Another well said post!

I think this post is relevant to the situation as it goes to show that even the most experienced pilots can make mistakes and become complacent. Dale Snodgrass was a legend in Naval Aviation and was well known on the airshow circuit. He was killed 24 July 2021 in a crash in Idaho. If you read the report he was a very meticulous pilot, his pre-flights would last up to 90 mins. He forgot to remove the control lock and do a control wipeout prior to takeoff and crashed. Blows my mind. If you have ever watched an aircraft takeoff from a carrier the flight controls are dancing all over the place from the pilot checking the controls. How he could not have done it on this flight is a sign that anyone can become complacent or make a mistake.

https://cdn.planeandpilotmag.com/2022/07/Snodgrass-NTSB-Final-Report.pdf?_ga=2.177718561.52201542.1668368759-496600868.1668368757

We were at that show. Got to shake hands with Col. Tibbets. Pretty reserved man.
I took my check ride with a man named Col. Tommy Thompson. Lived in SA and lived next door to Tex Hill and his wife Mamie.
Tommy went to flight school with Tex and they were best of friends. Col. Thompson flew a C-47 on D-Day carrying para troopers.
We became best friends and got to have dinner one night with he and Tex Hill.
Col. Thompson flew my L-6 in the missing man formation for my dads funeral.
Was a great time of my life.

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Yes, these accidents are rare, but they're always fatal and have the added risk of ground casualties.

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For those of similar sentiments, I give you the current air traffic situation over the heavily populated DFW region

CanyonAg77 said:

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Yes, these accidents are rare, but they're always fatal and have the added risk of ground casualties.

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For those of similar sentiments, I give you the current air traffic situation over the heavily populated DFW region

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Good point if those aircraft are flying in formation and doing aerobatic maneuvers.

With all due respect. There has been deaths of spectators at car races, drag boat races, horse races, motorcycle races, air races, etc etc.
I'll go as far to say that I bet you have texted or used your cell phone at least once while driving,,,, so even you were a risk to others.
I am a believer that our God has a plan for our lives. You can't mock or tempt God but when it's your time it's your time.
It can be a heart attack, choking on piece of hard candy, car wreck etc etc.
Folks that attend these events are aware of the possible risk.
You are at a much greater risk everyday by getting killed from somebody texting while driving than being killed as a bystander at any of the above listed events.

Rapier108 said:

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Wanting to ban all airshows after a crash is no different than wanting to ban all guns after a shooting.

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its far worse. There is no malice you are trying to second-guess and prevent. Accidents are accidents.

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Good point if those aircraft are flying in formation and doing aerobatic maneuvers.

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Run out of gas
Pilot has heart attack
Lost in fog
Incompetent pilot
Mechanical failure
etc
etc
etc

The point is a poster is concerned about ground casualties from a few airshows a year.

Somewhere around 600,000 operations take place from DFW alone each year.

On the 9/11 thread didn't an Iranian airline go down in a dense urban area after a collision? The risk from airlines is not any less than an air show centered over an airdrome.

Stolen from another board. Here is an article with some great pictures about Texas Raiders. I assume the incident pilots are the same ones in the pictures. RIP to them. That was a beautifully restored/maintained aircraft from the pics.

https://www.theadvocate.com/acadiana/multimedia/photos/collection_95e90350-b815-11ea-a766-a7f4954f8e2d.html#20

I'm trying my best to be respectful but you are frankly just being obtuse now. Do you have any idea how close aircraft are to one another in normal flight operations in the airspace above DFW or Chicago Ohare at any given hour for an example?

Pics I took at WOH 2015

File5 said:

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Wait 'til you hear about F1 or MMA.

Heck, you wouldn't believe the people we allow to drive cars on public roads these days. Straight up teenagers!

I see where you're coming from but everything has risk in life. It's a big part of what makes it enjoyable and is unavoidable. Let them make their choices and keep the government out of as much as possible.

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I used to fight tournament TKD! Though I never fought MMA exactly (our practices were somewhat similar though with way more padded equipment), I got my butt kicked by the best martial artists out there! Looked silly doing it occasionally (OK, quite often), too, so I know about personal risk. I'm against any kind of regulation or law in this area. So everyone is free to do what they wish, but I'll never attend one of these things. And again, this is probably not the time to have these discussions and I'm just responding to the comments.

The problem with the risk in this case is that a) people don't just get hurt, they end up VERY SERIOUSLY injured or dead and b) often, they are unaware of or not involved in the taking of the risk to begin with, especially if they are spectators or bystanders. Had the impact of the plane happened just a few feet in a different direction, far more people could have been affected. Highway 67 had debris on it; it could have been the spot where the entire crash occurred. So this isn't simply a question about people making choices about their own level of risk.

Explain how you manage that risk? I had no idea an air show was taking place there yesterday. I'm in that area quite a bit, actually. I was a mile and a half from the crash site Friday night. I've also been in the general area about half a dozen times in the last 3 months or so, and I don't live anywhere near there. My point is that this entire event sort of hits home to a LOT of people, not just those directly involved. It could have been much worse.

I just think there are simple ways to better manage these kinds of risks -- single plane flights, for one. Certainly no acrobatic moves, and over areas where those that aren't consulted on whether to take a risk in the first place.

Wasn't the incident aircraft the one used in this iconic commercial?

That is hard to watch. Prayers up for the families of the victims.

Gunny456 said:

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I'm trying my best to be respectful but you are frankly just being obtuse now. Do you have any idea how close aircraft are to one another in normal flight operations in the airspace above DFW or Chicago Ohare at any given hour for an example?

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Yes I do. I'm a commercial pilot.
I also understand that as I pilot I have the freedom to fly and a responsibility to protect that freedom, my life and those in my aircraft and on the ground. So I take risks very carefully because a lot is at stake.

Go back and re-read my posts. I'm not suggesting we do away with airshows. Of course not. I'm suggesting we reevaluate doing some of the high risk maneuvers so that the fine folks that were flying that day don't lose their lives and we dont lose the freedom to continue having awesome airshow. I'm fine if we agree to disagree.