A declining population means their current geography is not defensible. Putting an even greater urgency on the push to defensible terrain.

You keep saying they're going to stop in Ukraine like you know. They didn't stop in Georgia. They risked NATO provocation in Syria. They didn't stop in Crimea. Why do you think they stop in Kiev or Transnistria?

Zobel said:

---

A declining population means their current geography is not defensible. Putting an even greater urgency on the push to defensible terrain.

You keep saying they're going to stop in Ukraine like you know. They didn't stop in Georgia. They risked NATO provocation in Syria. They didn't stop in Crimea. Why do you think they stop in Kiev or Transnistria?

---

Because they are already getting their asses kicked in Ukraine and already retreated from Kiev a few months ago. Syria and Crimea weren't NATO. What makes you think they can take on NATO on a direct conflict?

Do you know more than Ash Carter and Alex Younger (former MI6) both of whom said in February that Putins plans were Ukraine, KStan, and Moldova and not NATO countries?

You seem to be the know it all here. Why don't you tell us his plans.

Why and how are they getting their asses kicked in Ukraine? What is making that possible?

If Russia had waltzed into Ukraine, taken Kiev, and installed their puppet government, if NATO stood idly by and bickered about economic impacts and energy supply, Russia very well may have decided to take another bite elsewhere.

Of course the opposite happened. Russia got punched in the mouth and bogged down. Now they're scrambling to avoid a total collapse. NATO is more united than ever.

Oh and with a nuclear deterrent Russia never needed a buffer state to deter a fantastical NATO invasion.

Teslag said:

---

Why and how are they getting their asses kicked in Ukraine? What is making that possible?

---

I'm obviously aware as to what is making that possible. Taking the fight to him via proxy war in a non-NATO country is separate from people assuming Putin was ever going to attack NATO in the first place.

GAC06 said:

---

If Russia had waltzed into Ukraine, taken Kiev, and installed their puppet government, if NATO stood idly by and bickered about economic impacts and energy supply, Russia very well may have decided to take another bite elsewhere.

Of course the opposite happened. Russia got punched in the mouth and bogged down. Now they're scrambling to avoid a total collapse. NATO is more united than ever.

Oh and with a nuclear deterrent Russia never needed a buffer state to deter a fantastical NATO invasion.

---

Point taken, but is it too much to ask the freeloading Euros to spend Euros to take care of Euro problems? Seems like that would be a big problem FOR THEM if Russia succeeded. Not so much for us.

Not sure why we have to foot the bill for the notoriously corrupt Uke gov't.

They are taking a much larger hit to their economies due to their energy policies than we are giving military aid, much of it surplus or aging anyway.

The energy policies that our POTUS correctly called out 3 or 4 years ago and was laughed at?

**** em, they're ******s. Not sure why you or I (or our children) have to pay for it.

Let them print their own fake money.

GAC06 said:

---

If Russia had waltzed into Ukraine, taken Kiev, and installed their puppet government, if NATO stood idly by and bickered about economic impacts and energy supply, Russia very well may have decided to take another bite elsewhere.

Of course the opposite happened. Russia got punched in the mouth and bogged down. Now they're scrambling to avoid a total collapse. NATO is more united than ever.

Oh and with a nuclear deterrent Russia never needed a buffer state to deter a fantastical NATO invasion.

---

I can play the if scenarios as well.

If Russia had waltzed into Ukraine, taken Kiev, and installed their own puppet government as opposed to NATO's, Russia power would have increased. Fewer Ukrainians would have died. Fewer would be displaced by being in a warzone. Less devastation to agriculture output. More optimistic outlook for gas prices. Far fewer billions funneled to Ukraine and thus funneled back to politicians/elites.

Great we have damaged Russia. But at the same time we have mutually destroyed the middle class of America/Western Europe. I know it seems unamerican to not want to fight against bad nations, but it is vital to make sure your efforts aren't making things worse. I'd argue they do.

That mistake has been exposed. We are in the process of neutering Russias conventional military for pennies on the dollar, and stand to benefit greatly from supplying energy to Europe in the future. This saga is shaping up to be a huge win, but some people seem to be entirely motivated against the political party currently in power instead of objectively analyzing the situation.

texagbeliever said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

If Russia had waltzed into Ukraine, taken Kiev, and installed their puppet government, if NATO stood idly by and bickered about economic impacts and energy supply, Russia very well may have decided to take another bite elsewhere.

Of course the opposite happened. Russia got punched in the mouth and bogged down. Now they're scrambling to avoid a total collapse. NATO is more united than ever.

Oh and with a nuclear deterrent Russia never needed a buffer state to deter a fantastical NATO invasion.

---

I can play the if scenarios as well.

If Russia had waltzed into Ukraine, taken Kiev, and installed their own puppet government as opposed to NATO's, Russia power would have increased. Fewer Ukrainians would have died. Fewer would be displaced by being in a warzone. Less devastation to agriculture output. More optimistic outlook for gas prices. Far fewer billions funneled to Ukraine and thus funneled back to politicians/elites.

Great we have damaged Russia. But at the same time we have mutually destroyed the middle class of America/Western Europe. I know it seems unamerican to not want to fight against bad nations, but it is vital to make sure your efforts aren't making things worse. I'd argue they do.

---

First of all, no we have not destroyed the middle class. That's a flat out lie.

Second, the vast majority of the economic, supply chain, and inflation problems we are currently facing are from the two year idiotic response to covid. Ukraine is barely a blip compared to that.

GAC06 said:

---

That mistake has been exposed. We are in the process of neutering Russias conventional military for pennies on the dollar, and stand to benefit greatly from supplying energy to Europe in the future. This saga is shaping up to be a huge win, but some people seem to be entirely motivated against the political party currently in power instead of objectively analyzing the situation.

---

That's because the political party in power is entirely responsible for the situation we find ourselves in. And have been actively raking in millions of dollars, laundered as Foreign Aid, from the corrupt Uke government for at least a decade.

And the political party in power impeached a former POTUS for asking about it...

Sorry for noticing.

texagbeliever said:

---

I can play the if scenarios as well.

If Russia had waltzed into Ukraine, taken Kiev, and installed their own puppet government as opposed to NATO's, Russia power would have increased. Fewer Ukrainians would have died. Fewer would be displaced by being in a warzone. Less devastation to agriculture output. More optimistic outlook for gas prices. Far fewer billions funneled to Ukraine and thus funneled back to politicians/elites.

Great we have damaged Russia. But at the same time we have mutually destroyed the middle class of America/Western Europe. I know it seems unamerican to not want to fight against bad nations, but it is vital to make sure your efforts aren't making things worse. I'd argue they do.

---

Are you seriously claiming a decrease in Ukraine agricultural output and gas prices have destroyed the middle class of America/Western Europe?

You do realize the US also has this 'agriculture'? You do realize gas prices were going down to pre-war prices before the hurricane came along?

Sad some poor suckers are so completely brainwashed in conspiracy theories that sending Ukraine surplus, mostly older weapons is draining the US. Might as well claim water is being corrupted into resurrecting the ghosts of pirates past.

Oh and completely ignore the fact that this war is also the biggest commercial ever of US weapons. The sales in arms alone as the entire world realizes how superior our weapons are will be more than the aid we send them.

GAC06 said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

If Russia had waltzed into Ukraine, taken Kiev, and installed their puppet government, if NATO stood idly by and bickered about economic impacts and energy supply, Russia very well may have decided to take another bite elsewhere.

Of course the opposite happened. Russia got punched in the mouth and bogged down. Now they're scrambling to avoid a total collapse. NATO is more united than ever.

Oh and with a nuclear deterrent Russia never needed a buffer state to deter a fantastical NATO invasion.

---

I can play the if scenarios as well.

If Russia had waltzed into Ukraine, taken Kiev, and installed their own puppet government as opposed to NATO's, Russia power would have increased. Fewer Ukrainians would have died. Fewer would be displaced by being in a warzone. Less devastation to agriculture output. More optimistic outlook for gas prices. Far fewer billions funneled to Ukraine and thus funneled back to politicians/elites.

Great we have damaged Russia. But at the same time we have mutually destroyed the middle class of America/Western Europe. I know it seems unamerican to not want to fight against bad nations, but it is vital to make sure your efforts aren't making things worse. I'd argue they do.

---

First of all, no we have not destroyed the middle class. That's a flat out lie.

Second, the vast majority of the economic, supply chain, and inflation problems we are currently facing are from the two year idiotic response to covid. Ukraine is barely a blip compared to that.

---

GAS PRICES. That is the driver in our inflation issue. Yes dumb policies from Biden and co are making it worse. Yes dumb progressive policies like ESG are making it worse. But this is 100% a cost of energy (transportation and power) issue.

Have destroyed is wrong you are right. In the process of destroying is the correct phrasing. Such a big difference (eyeroll).

We first gave lethal aid to Ukraine during the Trump administration. Obama gave humvees and blankets and such.

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=emm_epm0_pte_nus_dpg&f=m

CondensedFogAggie said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

I can play the if scenarios as well.

If Russia had waltzed into Ukraine, taken Kiev, and installed their own puppet government as opposed to NATO's, Russia power would have increased. Fewer Ukrainians would have died. Fewer would be displaced by being in a warzone. Less devastation to agriculture output. More optimistic outlook for gas prices. Far fewer billions funneled to Ukraine and thus funneled back to politicians/elites.

Great we have damaged Russia. But at the same time we have mutually destroyed the middle class of America/Western Europe. I know it seems unamerican to not want to fight against bad nations, but it is vital to make sure your efforts aren't making things worse. I'd argue they do.

---

Are you seriously claiming a decrease in Ukraine agricultural output and gas prices have destroyed the middle class of America/Western Europe?

You do realize the US also has this 'agriculture'? You do realize gas prices were going down to pre-war prices before the hurricane came along?

Sad some poor suckers are so completely brainwashed in conspiracy theories that sending Ukraine surplus, mostly older weapons is draining the US. Might as well claim water is being corrupted into resurrecting the ghosts of pirates past.

Oh and completely ignore the fact that this war is also the biggest commercial ever of US weapons. The sales in arms alone as the entire world realizes how superior our weapons are will be more than the aid we send them.

---

The US is giving billions in aide to Ukraine. The Ukranians in turn buy US weapons with the billions in aide. Now the US is profiting how exactly? It surely isn't the middle class paying the bill.

Grocery costs are up 30% or so. Fast food costs up. Gas costs up. Energy costs are nearly double. That has a significant impact on the sustainability of small business and on the ability for individuals to save in order to start their own small businesses or just save.

Stop saying gas prices are going down when they are only going down because we have drained most of our strategic oil reserves so that the democrats can have low gas prices during election season. That is temporary and not a long term solution.

Here is the thinking by the left posters on this thread.

Trump is a Russia apologist because the media told me so.
Ergo Russia is literally the devil and anything against the devil must be good.
Anyone who questions whether or not pro-longed war is good for the ukranians or that there are economic impacts due to Ukraine must be pro-Russia and therefore in favor evil.

It is funny how simple the logic on display is.

It's also funny that you assume every anti Russia poster is a leftist

Inflation is happening because of the trillions we handed out during covid. Not the billions mostly in military hardware going to Ukraine. To claim otherwise is freaking ludicrous.

texagbeliever said:

---

CondensedFogAggie said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

I can play the if scenarios as well.

If Russia had waltzed into Ukraine, taken Kiev, and installed their own puppet government as opposed to NATO's, Russia power would have increased. Fewer Ukrainians would have died. Fewer would be displaced by being in a warzone. Less devastation to agriculture output. More optimistic outlook for gas prices. Far fewer billions funneled to Ukraine and thus funneled back to politicians/elites.

Great we have damaged Russia. But at the same time we have mutually destroyed the middle class of America/Western Europe. I know it seems unamerican to not want to fight against bad nations, but it is vital to make sure your efforts aren't making things worse. I'd argue they do.

---

Are you seriously claiming a decrease in Ukraine agricultural output and gas prices have destroyed the middle class of America/Western Europe?

You do realize the US also has this 'agriculture'? You do realize gas prices were going down to pre-war prices before the hurricane came along?

Sad some poor suckers are so completely brainwashed in conspiracy theories that sending Ukraine surplus, mostly older weapons is draining the US. Might as well claim water is being corrupted into resurrecting the ghosts of pirates past.

Oh and completely ignore the fact that this war is also the biggest commercial ever of US weapons. The sales in arms alone as the entire world realizes how superior our weapons are will be more than the aid we send them.

---

The US is giving billions in aide to Ukraine. The Ukranians in turn buy US weapons with the billions in aide. Now the US is profiting how exactly? It surely isn't the middle class paying the bill.

Grocery costs are up 30% or so. Fast food costs up. Gas costs up. Energy costs are nearly double. That has a significant impact on the sustainability of small business and on the ability for individuals to save in order to start their own small businesses or just save.

Stop saying gas prices are going down when they are only going down because we have drained most of our strategic oil reserves so that the democrats can have low gas prices during election season. That is temporary and not a long term solution.

---

Wait.....you ACTUALLY think the war in Ukraine is the cause of our problems?!

Wow...

You do realize that Europe can buy weapons from us with their own currency, not bilked from taxpayers across the pond, correct?

Only a leftist would claim its a good deal to send money to people to use to to buy **** from us with and claim that somehow that's a win.

They've been riding on our shoulders for 80 years now. When **** gets dicey over there, THEY need to fix it.

Sell them the weapons, fine. peace. But they need to pay for it with their own money, not the allowance money that daddy gives them.

Guarantee you any general in the pentagon would say this is a cheap proxy war against Russia and we are getting our money's worth.

This should not even be political.

nhamp07 said:

---

Guarantee you any general in the pentagon would say this is a cheap proxy war against Russia and we are getting our money's worth.

This should not even be political.

---

The pentagon is full of transsexual culture warriors

Silian Rail said:

---

nhamp07 said:

---

Guarantee you any general in the pentagon would say this is a cheap proxy war against Russia and we are getting our money's worth.

This should not even be political.

---

The pentagon is full of transsexual culture warriors

---

And they'd still skull **** Putin

nhamp07 said:

---

Guarantee you any general in the pentagon would say this is a cheap proxy war against Russia and we are getting our money's worth.

This should not even be political.

---

Well, of course they would....wolf guarding the henhouse. Not that they aren't wrong in this case.

War is political by default.

Teslag said:

---

Silian Rail said:

---

nhamp07 said:

---

Guarantee you any general in the pentagon would say this is a cheap proxy war against Russia and we are getting our money's worth.

This should not even be political.

---

The pentagon is full of transsexual culture warriors

---

And they'd still skull **** Putin

---

Yeah, which is why the "Russia is a threat to us" argument is garbage. The only threat is their nuclear capabilities, which they're not likely to use on us unless we threaten them.

Eliminatus said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

CondensedFogAggie said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

I can play the if scenarios as well.

If Russia had waltzed into Ukraine, taken Kiev, and installed their own puppet government as opposed to NATO's, Russia power would have increased. Fewer Ukrainians would have died. Fewer would be displaced by being in a warzone. Less devastation to agriculture output. More optimistic outlook for gas prices. Far fewer billions funneled to Ukraine and thus funneled back to politicians/elites.

Great we have damaged Russia. But at the same time we have mutually destroyed the middle class of America/Western Europe. I know it seems unamerican to not want to fight against bad nations, but it is vital to make sure your efforts aren't making things worse. I'd argue they do.

---

Are you seriously claiming a decrease in Ukraine agricultural output and gas prices have destroyed the middle class of America/Western Europe?

You do realize the US also has this 'agriculture'? You do realize gas prices were going down to pre-war prices before the hurricane came along?

Sad some poor suckers are so completely brainwashed in conspiracy theories that sending Ukraine surplus, mostly older weapons is draining the US. Might as well claim water is being corrupted into resurrecting the ghosts of pirates past.

Oh and completely ignore the fact that this war is also the biggest commercial ever of US weapons. The sales in arms alone as the entire world realizes how superior our weapons are will be more than the aid we send them.

---

The US is giving billions in aide to Ukraine. The Ukranians in turn buy US weapons with the billions in aide. Now the US is profiting how exactly? It surely isn't the middle class paying the bill.

Grocery costs are up 30% or so. Fast food costs up. Gas costs up. Energy costs are nearly double. That has a significant impact on the sustainability of small business and on the ability for individuals to save in order to start their own small businesses or just save.

Stop saying gas prices are going down when they are only going down because we have drained most of our strategic oil reserves so that the democrats can have low gas prices during election season. That is temporary and not a long term solution.

---

Wait.....you ACTUALLY think the war in Ukraine is the cause of our problems?!

Wow...

---

I liken it to this: a person is sick with the flu. It is dangerous and could kill him but most likely won't. Now if that person develops pneumonia then that person is at serious risk.
Person=America
Flu= progressive policies
Pneumonia = Ukraine war

Absent all the covid spending and progressive energy madness we wouldn't be in that big of trouble economically with this Ukrainian conflict. However adding the Ukraine conflict on top of the past 2 years, creates an opportunity for a truly devastating outcome. That is the entire reason Russia has decided it is worth pursuing. Because America and western Europe are weak.

Also worth noting energy as a goods costs are up not because of inflation but because of supply constraints (by policy and ukraine). The only thing keeping natural gas prices lower is that demand is being killed by a falling economy. If natural gas prices double, energy bills double.

texagbeliever said:

---

Eliminatus said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

CondensedFogAggie said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

I can play the if scenarios as well.

If Russia had waltzed into Ukraine, taken Kiev, and installed their own puppet government as opposed to NATO's, Russia power would have increased. Fewer Ukrainians would have died. Fewer would be displaced by being in a warzone. Less devastation to agriculture output. More optimistic outlook for gas prices. Far fewer billions funneled to Ukraine and thus funneled back to politicians/elites.

Great we have damaged Russia. But at the same time we have mutually destroyed the middle class of America/Western Europe. I know it seems unamerican to not want to fight against bad nations, but it is vital to make sure your efforts aren't making things worse. I'd argue they do.

---

Are you seriously claiming a decrease in Ukraine agricultural output and gas prices have destroyed the middle class of America/Western Europe?

You do realize the US also has this 'agriculture'? You do realize gas prices were going down to pre-war prices before the hurricane came along?

Sad some poor suckers are so completely brainwashed in conspiracy theories that sending Ukraine surplus, mostly older weapons is draining the US. Might as well claim water is being corrupted into resurrecting the ghosts of pirates past.

Oh and completely ignore the fact that this war is also the biggest commercial ever of US weapons. The sales in arms alone as the entire world realizes how superior our weapons are will be more than the aid we send them.

---

The US is giving billions in aide to Ukraine. The Ukranians in turn buy US weapons with the billions in aide. Now the US is profiting how exactly? It surely isn't the middle class paying the bill.

Grocery costs are up 30% or so. Fast food costs up. Gas costs up. Energy costs are nearly double. That has a significant impact on the sustainability of small business and on the ability for individuals to save in order to start their own small businesses or just save.

Stop saying gas prices are going down when they are only going down because we have drained most of our strategic oil reserves so that the democrats can have low gas prices during election season. That is temporary and not a long term solution.

---

Wait.....you ACTUALLY think the war in Ukraine is the cause of our problems?!

Wow...

---

I liken it to this: a person is sick with the flu. It is dangerous and could kill him but most likely won't. Now if that person develops pneumonia then that person is at serious risk.
Person=America
Flu= progressive policies
Pneumonia = Ukraine war

Absent all the covid spending and progressive energy madness we wouldn't be in that big of trouble economically with this Ukrainian conflict. However adding the Ukraine conflict on top of the past 2 years, creates an opportunity for a truly devastating outcome. That is the entire reason Russia has decided it is worth pursuing. Because America and western Europe are weak.

---

Ukraine isn't making anything a truly devastating outcome.

And I cant help but read that last sentence in Trumps voice. lol

Silian Rail said:

---

Teslag said:

---

Silian Rail said:

---

nhamp07 said:

---

Guarantee you any general in the pentagon would say this is a cheap proxy war against Russia and we are getting our money's worth.

This should not even be political.

---

The pentagon is full of transsexual culture warriors

---

And they'd still skull **** Putin

---

Yeah, which is why the "Russia is a threat to us" argument is garbage. The only threat is their nuclear capabilities, which they're not likely to use on us unless we threaten them.

---

But we didn't know that until we threw a bunch of weapons for the Ukes to use, which is precisely why it was and is a good idea. It was a unique opportunity to cheaply ascertain the effectiveness of our weapons against a near peer adversary. We've been able to do that and show the world that Russia has no teeth. Don't think China isn't taking note of what our weapons are capable of.

Silian Rail said:

---

Teslag said:

---

Silian Rail said:

---

nhamp07 said:

---

Guarantee you any general in the pentagon would say this is a cheap proxy war against Russia and we are getting our money's worth.

This should not even be political.

---

The pentagon is full of transsexual culture warriors

---

And they'd still skull **** Putin

---

Yeah, which is why the "Russia is a threat to us" argument is garbage. The only threat is their nuclear capabilities, which they're not likely to use on us unless we threaten them.

---

Nobody is threatening Russia's existence unless they decide to go nuclear. This justifying of their nuclear sabre rattling is ridiculous and disingenuous.

When people start marching directly to Moscow and actually pointing their nukes at Russia, then you can have this point. Your logic would see them never lose a conflict again because you would submit at the first mention of nuclear weapons.

Waffledynamics said:

---

Silian Rail said:

---

Teslag said:

---

Silian Rail said:

---

nhamp07 said:

---

Guarantee you any general in the pentagon would say this is a cheap proxy war against Russia and we are getting our money's worth.

This should not even be political.

---

The pentagon is full of transsexual culture warriors

---

And they'd still skull **** Putin

---

Yeah, which is why the "Russia is a threat to us" argument is garbage. The only threat is their nuclear capabilities, which they're not likely to use on us unless we threaten them.

---

Nobody is threatening Russia's existence unless they decide to go nuclear. This justifying of their nuclear sabre rattling is ridiculous and disingenuous.

When people start marching directly to Moscow and actually pointing their nukes at Russia, then you can have this point. Your logic would see them never lose a conflict again because you would submit at the first mention of nuclear weapons.

---

I have no problem with Ukraine defending themselves against Russia. I have no problem with Ukraine taking Moscow in revenge for them invading Ukraine. I have a problem with us involving ourself in yet another global quagmire.

But we really aren't all that involved. We are just providing weapons, some we don't even intend to use anymore. You act like we are throwing 50,000 troops to their death in Vietnam.

Consider this a training exercise

Silian Rail said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

Silian Rail said:

---

Teslag said:

---

Silian Rail said:

---

nhamp07 said:

---

Guarantee you any general in the pentagon would say this is a cheap proxy war against Russia and we are getting our money's worth.

This should not even be political.

---

The pentagon is full of transsexual culture warriors

---

And they'd still skull **** Putin

---

Yeah, which is why the "Russia is a threat to us" argument is garbage. The only threat is their nuclear capabilities, which they're not likely to use on us unless we threaten them.

---

Nobody is threatening Russia's existence unless they decide to go nuclear. This justifying of their nuclear sabre rattling is ridiculous and disingenuous.

When people start marching directly to Moscow and actually pointing their nukes at Russia, then you can have this point. Your logic would see them never lose a conflict again because you would submit at the first mention of nuclear weapons.

---

I have no problem with Ukraine defending themselves against Russia. I have no problem with Ukraine taking Moscow in revenge for them invading Ukraine. I have a problem with us involving ourself in yet another global quagmire.

---

This Motte and Bailey stuff you're doing is old. All of you making these arguments know the outcome of what you want to happen. Some of you have explicitly cheered on Russia and jeered Ukraine. When called on it, you retreat back to a "oh I'm just looking out for the poor middle class taxpayer" shtick.

Nobody believes it.

Waffledynamics said:

---

Silian Rail said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

Silian Rail said:

---

Teslag said:

---

Silian Rail said:

---

nhamp07 said:

---

Guarantee you any general in the pentagon would say this is a cheap proxy war against Russia and we are getting our money's worth.

This should not even be political.

---

The pentagon is full of transsexual culture warriors

---

And they'd still skull **** Putin

---

Yeah, which is why the "Russia is a threat to us" argument is garbage. The only threat is their nuclear capabilities, which they're not likely to use on us unless we threaten them.

---

Nobody is threatening Russia's existence unless they decide to go nuclear. This justifying of their nuclear sabre rattling is ridiculous and disingenuous.

When people start marching directly to Moscow and actually pointing their nukes at Russia, then you can have this point. Your logic would see them never lose a conflict again because you would submit at the first mention of nuclear weapons.

---

I have no problem with Ukraine defending themselves against Russia. I have no problem with Ukraine taking Moscow in revenge for them invading Ukraine. I have a problem with us involving ourself in yet another global quagmire.

---

This Motte and Bailey stuff you're doing is old. All of you making these arguments know the outcome of what you want to happen. Some of you have explicitly cheered on Russia and jeered Ukraine. When called on it, you retreat back to a "oh I'm just looking out for the poor middle class taxpayer" shtick.

Nobody believes it.

---

Yeah, I have affection for Russia having had an office there for years, and I dislike the amount of progressivism espoused by Ukraine, but it's not important enough for me to care either way. I have constantly argued against American intervention everywhere, we have so many problems at home that need to be fixed before we worry about anyone else.

Russia is zero threat to is if we don't aid Ukraine. The only way they become a threat to us is by doing what we're doing.