***Russian - Ukraine War Tactical and Strategic Updates*** [Warning on OP]

7,640,040 Views | 47868 Replies | Last: 16 hrs ago by 74OA
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GarryowenAg said:

Has anyone posted this yet? It's WILD! This guy is the head of Bellingcat in case you're not aware.




Definitely second the need to read the entire thread. Fascinating. It's a tale of counter-counter-intelligence. A group of Ukrainians put feelers out for Russian pilots to defect and some Russian pilots responded with apparent interest. As the conversations continued it became clear the FSB had been intercepting the Russian pilot communications and had taken over the conversations. Ukrainians figured it out and trolled them. Russia media claiming success of the FSB operation but this thread has all sorts of documentation showing the opposite was actually true.
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Ulysses90
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I agree with you. It's only in hindight that the tipping point becomes obvious. At the beginning, the tipping is so slight that it feels as if the interminably long stalemate is just continuing. Momentum sometimes increases very slowly before it is recognized.
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More on the shakeup of Ukraine's internal security services. TREASON
one MEEN Ag
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agent-maroon said:

one MEEN Ag said:

MouthBQ98 said:

When not drill the bore, then mill the barrel down to the thickness you need with the centerline of the bore already defined by the bore? Don't get me wrong, it's a good thing that QC and manufacturing processes were so poor in the old Warsaw Pact.
If you weren't getting any other tubes, cost wasn't an issue, and the bore would meet spec with the thin diameter all the way around, then for sure. Go turn electricity and labor into a pile of metal chips that far outstrips the cost of a new tube.
If the barrel was forged, wouldn't the internal stresses being relieved asymmetrically induce some uneven strain in the barrel? Seems like you could spend a crap ton of time & money and still have a barrel with garbage accuracy. Trading one manner of suck for another.
Even without forging that is the case. If you have a solid bar that is perfectly straight at room temperature all of the internal stresses that result in a straight bar aren't evenly distributed throughout the bar. So if you start machining the OD or ID of the bar, you could induce warping just by removing a layer of steel that was under a lot of stress/strain to keep the bar straight.

Thats why you A) give yourself margin on raw material compared to the final product B) do a heat treat that tries to even out the internal stresses without getting too hot and ruining your really high strength.

Those barrels might be forged. The type of forging you'd do for a barrel (not sure if they did actually forge it) would be this type of open die forging. Where you have two half circles you're pressing the bar in between.

youtube.com/watch?v=nCw1PKlSEwc

Then you'd trepan the hole out of the middle using a hollow cutting tool (think of a hole saw on steroids).


You'd probably then cut the OD while chucking off the ID, hone the ID to the exact precise ID and then cut the rifling (could be flipped, ask a gunsmith).

Any of those machining processes could change the bend of the whole bar. But the concentricity is related to how it came out of the foundry.

benchmark
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Ulysses90 said:

I agree with you. It's only in hindight that the tipping point becomes obvious. At the beginning, the tipping is so slight that it feels as if the interminably long stalemate is just continuing. Momentum sometimes increases very slowly before it is recognized.
Agreed, and I'd add ... GMLRS can only shift the momentum if they enable Ukraine to regain territory. Otherwise, they're only useful to blunt Russia's momentum and create a stalemate. Sounds obvious - but the US has a limited supply of rockets and we can't resupply Ukraine for an interminably long stalemate. What Ukraine does over the next 4-6 weeks is critical IMO.
74OA
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Don't worry about Putin's feelings: ESTONIA
Waffledynamics
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Quote:

Germany has delivered the promised Mars II MLRS to Ukraine. In addition, three more self-propelled howitzers were handed over, - Defense Minister Christine Lambrecht (SPD) says on Tuesday


https://liveuamap.com/en/2022/26-july-germany-has-delivered-the-promised-mars-ii-mlrs-to
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Quote:

Security Service of Ukraine seized big amount of weapons in Dnipro city


https://liveuamap.com/en/2022/26-july-security-service-of-ukraine-seized-big-amount-of

Uhh, what?
USAFAg
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74OA said:

Don't worry about Putin's feelings: ESTONIA



So much truth in her statements.

12thFan/Websider Since 2003
Faustus
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https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/26/science/russia-space-station.html

Russia says it will quit the ISS by 2024. I post the article for the picture of Putin meeting with the new head of Roscosmos. There had previously been speculation about Putin's health, and in this picture you can see him with a firm grip on the table again, presumably to keep his hand from shaking.


President Vladimir Putin and Yuri Borisov, the new head of Roscosmos, in a Tuesday meeting at the Kremlin.Credit...Pool photo by Mikhail Klimentyev/Sputnik, via Associated Press

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Faustus said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/26/science/russia-space-station.html

Russia says it will quit the ISS by 2024. I post the article for the picture of Putin meeting with the new head of Roscosmos. There had previously been speculation about Putin's health, and in this picture you can see him with a firm grip on the table again, presumably to keep his hand from shaking.


President Vladimir Putin and Yuri Borisov, the new head of Roscosmos, in a Tuesday meeting at the Kremlin.Credit...Pool photo by Mikhail Klimentyev/Sputnik, via Associated Press


His office even screams has been Russian power.
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Waffledynamics said:

Quote:

Security Service of Ukraine seized big amount of weapons in Dnipro city


https://liveuamap.com/en/2022/26-july-security-service-of-ukraine-seized-big-amount-of

Uhh, what?
Outside of a couple anti tank weapons that are like trading cards over there right now, that could be just about any of our safes based on the 2 or 3 photos shown.
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benchmark said:

Ulysses90 said:

I agree with you. It's only in hindight that the tipping point becomes obvious. At the beginning, the tipping is so slight that it feels as if the interminably long stalemate is just continuing. Momentum sometimes increases very slowly before it is recognized.
Agreed, and I'd add ... GMLRS can only shift the momentum if they enable Ukraine to regain territory. Otherwise, they're only useful to blunt Russia's momentum and create a stalemate. Sounds obvious - but the US has a limited supply of rockets and we can't resupply Ukraine for an interminably long stalemate. What Ukraine does over the next 4-6 weeks is critical IMO.
Must have been a big 24 hours for Ukraine. No shortage of russians or russian armor blown to pieces on reddit. This is definitely a momentum shift in UKR favor.

Here is about 2/3 of the new attack links to this info.

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3536865-enemy-command-center-destroyed-48-invaders-eliminated-in-southern-ukraine.html

https://www.reddit.com/r/RussiaUkraineWar2022/comments/w88mbm/ukrainian_forces_worked_over_russian_positions/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

https://www.reddit.com/r/RussiaUkraineWar2022/comments/w875q1/ukrainian_forces_had_heated_battles_with_a_team/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

https://www.reddit.com/r/RussiaUkraineWar2022/comments/w84l7u/budennovsky_district_of_donetsk_after_being/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

https://www.reddit.com/r/RussiaUkraineWar2022/comments/w83gpa/russians_started_to_build_2_pontoon_bridges_near/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

https://www.reddit.com/r/RussiaUkraineWar2022/comments/w8mogc/ukrainian_military_drops_shells_from_a_drone_on/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/w8n3hd/ukrainian_drone_tracking_russian_infantry_and/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
AlaskanAg99
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Drones carrying grenades into RU trenches would just be terrifying. Hyper accurate as compared to arty blowing up a line. I can imagine RU morale just has to be so incredibly low.

Also a lot cheaper than artillery strikes.

Yuri and Igor sitting there *****ing about Putin while having some 20yr old rations, deep behind the lines, and suddenly a grenade falls between them.
ABATTBQ11
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Saw a video recently of a Ukrainian drone dropping a grenade on a Russian taking a ****. Nothing is safe. Nothing is sacred.
Red1
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I don't know if this has been covered. DOD states Ukraine will get 4 more HIMARS for a total of 16. I am waiting to see how HIMARS has first, second, third order effects on the Russian Army. Can they materially change the war? Can they cause severe attrition to ammunition, supplies, and fuel?

I had intimations of Russian vehicles breaking down and the need to repair them. It was confirmed in an article mentioning the Russians lack the requisite capability to meet the demand of the broken vehicles. It is a problem. I don't think it mentioned why this is a problem. I had little faith the Russians had a competent plan for the maintenance of the vehicles. This contributes to attrition.

The Russians running out of fuel and supplies outside Kyiv gave me the strong indication the Russian logistics capacities were inadequate. What is funny is the Russians created their own "Battle of the Bulge" by running out of fuel outside Kyiv. What a bunch of clowns.
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Take the eagle emblems and flags out and you're looking at the partner office at a texas based law firm.
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one MEEN Ag said:

Take the eagle emblems and flags out and you're looking at the partner office at a texas based law firm.


To be fair, the GDP of Texas is bigger than Russia.
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I would love to take a team of half a dozen top grad students and build a drone with a downward facing short barreled AR with a 100 round drum magazine.

It would be nice to be able to hit targets at range, but the math and sensor suite needed to calculate bullet trajectories is significantly simplified when firing vertically.

Add a little AI target detection and some geofencing, then swarm a dozen of them across a battlefield. If not for supply chain unreliability right now, this likely isn't the much more than a 6-8 week project with a high caliber team of engineers and software guys.
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AlaskanAg99 said:

Drones carrying grenades into RU trenches would just be terrifying. Hyper accurate as compared to arty blowing up a line. I can imagine RU morale just has to be so incredibly low.

Also a lot cheaper than artillery strikes.

Yuri and Igor sitting there *****ing about Putin while having some 20yr old rations, deep behind the lines, and suddenly a grenade falls between them.
I was just at my son's High School orientation and part of this was the NJROTC program. The program has a Drone Team and are the #1 team in the nation (from their Chief). Here I thought HS JROTC Orienteering team was awesome.

JROTC training tomorrow for Drone warfare. Tomorrow's battlefield is going to be straight up scary.
Company I-1, Ord-Ords '85 -12thFan and Websider-
black_ice
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lb3 said:

I would love to take a team of half a dozen top grad students and build a drone with a downward facing short barreled AR with a 100 round drum magazine.

It would be nice to be able to hit targets at range, but the math and sensor suite needed to calculate bullet trajectories is significantly simplified when firing vertically.

Add a little AI target detection and some geofencing, then swarm a dozen of them across a battlefield. If not for supply chain unreliability right now, this likely isn't the much more than a 6-8 week project with a high caliber team of engineers and software guys.



Make sure the grad students are not Chinese or Muslims.
one MEEN Ag
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lb3 said:

I would love to take a team of half a dozen top grad students and build a drone with a downward facing short barreled AR with a 100 round drum magazine.

It would be nice to be able to hit targets at range, but the math and sensor suite needed to calculate bullet trajectories is significantly simplified when firing vertically.

Add a little AI target detection and some geofencing, then swarm a dozen of them across a battlefield. If not for supply chain unreliability right now, this likely isn't the much more than a 6-8 week project with a high caliber team of engineers and software guys.
Hundred round drum eh?

When the magazine is empty, the drone just drops the magazine over the target as a dead weight
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black_ice said:

lb3 said:

I would love to take a team of half a dozen top grad students and build a drone with a downward facing short barreled AR with a 100 round drum magazine.

It would be nice to be able to hit targets at range, but the math and sensor suite needed to calculate bullet trajectories is significantly simplified when firing vertically.

Add a little AI target detection and some geofencing, then swarm a dozen of them across a battlefield. If not for supply chain unreliability right now, this likely isn't the much more than a 6-8 week project with a high caliber team of engineers and software guys.



Make sure the grad students are not Chinese or Muslims.
I'm sure DJI probably has a military division or sister company.
MouthBQ98
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A "grenade rack" is much more weight efficient.
Burrus86
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MouthBQ98 said:

A "grenade rack" is much more weight efficient.
Plus less recoil than a rifle set up.
JFABNRGR
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Burrus86 said:

MouthBQ98 said:

A "grenade rack" is much more weight efficient.
Plus less recoil than a rifle set up.
and quieter........up until the boom.
Ulysses90
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one MEEN Ag said:

agent-maroon said:

one MEEN Ag said:

MouthBQ98 said:

When not drill the bore, then mill the barrel down to the thickness you need with the centerline of the bore already defined by the bore? Don't get me wrong, it's a good thing that QC and manufacturing processes were so poor in the old Warsaw Pact.
If you weren't getting any other tubes, cost wasn't an issue, and the bore would meet spec with the thin diameter all the way around, then for sure. Go turn electricity and labor into a pile of metal chips that far outstrips the cost of a new tube.
If the barrel was forged, wouldn't the internal stresses being relieved asymmetrically induce some uneven strain in the barrel? Seems like you could spend a crap ton of time & money and still have a barrel with garbage accuracy. Trading one manner of suck for another.
Even without forging that is the case. If you have a solid bar that is perfectly straight at room temperature all of the internal stresses that result in a straight bar aren't evenly distributed throughout the bar. So if you start machining the OD or ID of the bar, you could induce warping just by removing a layer of steel that was under a lot of stress/strain to keep the bar straight.

Thats why you A) give yourself margin on raw material compared to the final product B) do a heat treat that tries to even out the internal stresses without getting too hot and ruining your really high strength.

Those barrels might be forged. The type of forging you'd do for a barrel (not sure if they did actually forge it) would be this type of open die forging. Where you have two half circles you're pressing the bar in between.

youtube.com/watch?v=nCw1PKlSEwc

Then you'd trepan the hole out of the middle using a hollow cutting tool (think of a hole saw on steroids).


You'd probably then cut the OD while chucking off the ID, hone the ID to the exact precise ID and then cut the rifling (could be flipped, ask a gunsmith).

Any of those machining processes could change the bend of the whole bar. But the concentricity is related to how it came out of the foundry.




This trivia probably doesn't apply to 30mm gun tubes but for larger bore cannons the tube is usually constructed with the inner bore made of carefully machined rifling in hard steel with a thin walls. A much thicker outer barrel sleeve is heated and press-fitted over the inner tube. When it cools, the outer sleeve places the rifled inner tube in compression which it much greater strength when high chamber pressure progressive burning propellants are used.
AgLA06
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And while interesting, hopefully this concludes our tangent on drilling / barrels issues.
74OA
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AgLA06 said:

And while interesting, hopefully this concludes our tangent on drilling / barrels issues.
Indeed.
one MEEN Ag
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AgLA06 said:

And while interesting, hopefully this concludes our tangent on drilling / barrels issues.
ABATTBQ11
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Ulysses90 said:

one MEEN Ag said:

agent-maroon said:

one MEEN Ag said:

MouthBQ98 said:

When not drill the bore, then mill the barrel down to the thickness you need with the centerline of the bore already defined by the bore? Don't get me wrong, it's a good thing that QC and manufacturing processes were so poor in the old Warsaw Pact.
If you weren't getting any other tubes, cost wasn't an issue, and the bore would meet spec with the thin diameter all the way around, then for sure. Go turn electricity and labor into a pile of metal chips that far outstrips the cost of a new tube.
If the barrel was forged, wouldn't the internal stresses being relieved asymmetrically induce some uneven strain in the barrel? Seems like you could spend a crap ton of time & money and still have a barrel with garbage accuracy. Trading one manner of suck for another.
Even without forging that is the case. If you have a solid bar that is perfectly straight at room temperature all of the internal stresses that result in a straight bar aren't evenly distributed throughout the bar. So if you start machining the OD or ID of the bar, you could induce warping just by removing a layer of steel that was under a lot of stress/strain to keep the bar straight.

Thats why you A) give yourself margin on raw material compared to the final product B) do a heat treat that tries to even out the internal stresses without getting too hot and ruining your really high strength.

Those barrels might be forged. The type of forging you'd do for a barrel (not sure if they did actually forge it) would be this type of open die forging. Where you have two half circles you're pressing the bar in between.

youtube.com/watch?v=nCw1PKlSEwc

Then you'd trepan the hole out of the middle using a hollow cutting tool (think of a hole saw on steroids).


You'd probably then cut the OD while chucking off the ID, hone the ID to the exact precise ID and then cut the rifling (could be flipped, ask a gunsmith).

Any of those machining processes could change the bend of the whole bar. But the concentricity is related to how it came out of the foundry.




This trivia probably doesn't apply to 30mm gun tubes but for larger bore cannons the tube is usually constructed with the inner bore made of carefully machined rifling in hard steel with a thin walls. A much thicker outer barrel sleeve is heated and press-fitted over the inner tube. When it cools, the outer sleeve places the rifled inner tube in compression which it much greater strength when high chamber pressure progressive burning propellants are used.


Components of large guns can also be autofretted. They are internally pressurized to the point where the steel in the bore is stretched beyond its elastic limit, but the steel closer to the outside of the tube is not (albeit it is stretched some). This means the steel of the bore is permanently deformed and enlarged, while the steel around it is trying to return to its original dimensions, putting the steel around the bore into permanent compression.
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