We put cages on some our stuff to defend against RPG's in Iraq. The idea is sound but it doesn't seem to be working in this case.
***Russian - Ukraine War Tactical and Strategic Updates*** [Warning on OP]
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dtkprowler said:That's a joke right? Javelin missile made to pierce tank armor and they hope a welded together metal cage is going to protect them? I really hope they are that stupid.baron_von_awesome said:You can see the metal cage on the top of the tank, they are installing those to try and defeat Javelin attacks. Which has nothing to do with the propaganda angle, just I have been seeing videos and stuff on the Russian fear of top down missile anti-tank missile attacks for a couple of months.SidsBurnerAccount said:🇺🇦Equipment abandoned by the Russian army in the area of responsibility of the 128th brigade of the Armed Forces of #Ukraine. pic.twitter.com/7PygVS1gHJ
— Ukraine News 🇺🇦 (@UkraineNews0) March 2, 2022
There are numerous videos of abandoned equipment and captured Russians soldiers all over twitter. I'm not posting all of them, but the volume indicates that the general tenor of what the Ukes are saying is true even if there are obvious propaganda stories being put out.
Not sure if the metal cages work or not, but they should
It works against RPGs with EFP warheads. Assume they're applying the same principle here.
HEAT warhead in the Jav, right? Trying to emulate some of the external cage defenses we've seen on AMRAPs, Strikers, etc?dtkprowler said:That's a joke right? Javelin missile made to pierce tank armor and they hope a welded together metal cage is going to protect them? I really hope they are that stupid.baron_von_awesome said:You can see the metal cage on the top of the tank, they are installing those to try and defeat Javelin attacks. Which has nothing to do with the propaganda angle, just I have been seeing videos and stuff on the Russian fear of top down missile anti-tank missile attacks for a couple of months.SidsBurnerAccount said:🇺🇦Equipment abandoned by the Russian army in the area of responsibility of the 128th brigade of the Armed Forces of #Ukraine. pic.twitter.com/7PygVS1gHJ
— Ukraine News 🇺🇦 (@UkraineNews0) March 2, 2022
There are numerous videos of abandoned equipment and captured Russians soldiers all over twitter. I'm not posting all of them, but the volume indicates that the general tenor of what the Ukes are saying is true even if there are obvious propaganda stories being put out.
Not sure if the metal cages work or not, but they should
Nobody cares. Work Harder
dtkprowler said:That's a joke right? Javelin missile made to pierce tank armor and they hope a welded together metal cage is going to protect them? I really hope they are that stupid.baron_von_awesome said:You can see the metal cage on the top of the tank, they are installing those to try and defeat Javelin attacks. Which has nothing to do with the propaganda angle, just I have been seeing videos and stuff on the Russian fear of top down missile anti-tank missile attacks for a couple of months.SidsBurnerAccount said:🇺🇦Equipment abandoned by the Russian army in the area of responsibility of the 128th brigade of the Armed Forces of #Ukraine. pic.twitter.com/7PygVS1gHJ
— Ukraine News 🇺🇦 (@UkraineNews0) March 2, 2022
There are numerous videos of abandoned equipment and captured Russians soldiers all over twitter. I'm not posting all of them, but the volume indicates that the general tenor of what the Ukes are saying is true even if there are obvious propaganda stories being put out.
Not sure if the metal cages work or not, but they should
It has to do with how the javelin pierces armor. If the warhead detonates early by hitting the cage at the top, the shaped charge meant to penetrate the armor won't because it needs to make contact to be effective. At least that's the thinking.
BlueSmoke said:HEAT warhead in the Jav, right? Trying to emulate some of the external cage defenses we've seen on AMRAPs, Strikers, etc?dtkprowler said:That's a joke right? Javelin missile made to pierce tank armor and they hope a welded together metal cage is going to protect them? I really hope they are that stupid.baron_von_awesome said:You can see the metal cage on the top of the tank, they are installing those to try and defeat Javelin attacks. Which has nothing to do with the propaganda angle, just I have been seeing videos and stuff on the Russian fear of top down missile anti-tank missile attacks for a couple of months.SidsBurnerAccount said:🇺🇦Equipment abandoned by the Russian army in the area of responsibility of the 128th brigade of the Armed Forces of #Ukraine. pic.twitter.com/7PygVS1gHJ
— Ukraine News 🇺🇦 (@UkraineNews0) March 2, 2022
There are numerous videos of abandoned equipment and captured Russians soldiers all over twitter. I'm not posting all of them, but the volume indicates that the general tenor of what the Ukes are saying is true even if there are obvious propaganda stories being put out.
Not sure if the metal cages work or not, but they should
Correct. The idea is that the slats absorb and/or deflect the explosively formed penetrator warhead. It's essentially trying to create enough stand off distance so that the warhead doesn't have enough energy to penetrate into the ammo magazine
Thanks for the insight all! Still seems like a very ineffective and impractical way of protecting against these. Even if it detonates earlier, I feel like it is still going to disable a tank as well as all those inside. But I am no expert and have no experience.
Yep. That's been my experience in mainland EuropeAggieLit said:Hitchhiking works pretty well in that part of the world.wangus12 said:I would assume these teams would operate under some sort of foreign forces branch. While they may not know Ukrainian, the people who are probably organizing these units will probably know English.jabberwalkie09 said:tamuags08 said:How does something like this work and reduce the risk of friendly fire? This is starting to sound like a video game battle royale with different factions being in the same area (although sharing a common enemy). I fear accidental deaths for some of these folks.12th Man Stan Account said:
Interesting comment from a US Navy veteran:I'm noticing a shitload of former OEF/OIF combat vets who are signing up for the international Ukrainian defense force.
— Christopher David (@Tazerface16) March 1, 2022
Some are even forming up their own 50 person platoons and coming over enmass so that they have some autonomy.
Wow!
Godspeed!
I've been wondering how they're going to be able to effectively communicate. Japan has reported some people volunteering and now we have some Americans. I'm sure there's going to be some other countries that volunteers come from. But how will all these groups actually speak to each other? I doubt they know Ukrainian.
Another problem is when will they actually get there. The battle is raging now.
Also in terms of getting there. I can buy a flight from DFW to Krakow, Poland right now and be there in a day or two. Then public transport to Rzeszow and finding a vehicle to get the last 60 miles to the border. Wouldn't shock me if the Polish people would help get you there. They keep saying men are getting over the border to fight
True, the F-22 is designed to take out its opponents before they ever see it, but it is also designed to be highly maneuverable in the event it does get into a dogfight. That's why it still has a 20mm cannon as part of armament.one MEEN Ag said:
Isn't the whole point of the F22 that they don't do dogfights any more? The air to air missiles get launched over the horizon.
aeroag14 said:JobSecurity said:Air wars: Ukrainian military says a "fierce air battle" took place last night in the Kyiv region between a pair of MiG-29 fighters and a pair of Russian Su-35s. Both Russian jets were destroyed and 1 MiG-29 survived.
— Larisa Brown (@larisamlbrown) March 2, 2022
Wild if true. No reason an SU-35 should be anywhere close to a scenario where it could get shot down by a mig29.
Not trying to downplay the Uke pilots feats. But and advanced 4.5 gen air superiority fighter shouldn't be losing any kind of fight to a 4th gen multi role fighter.
Would be the equivalent of an F-15E losing a fight to an 80s national guard F-16.
The Mig is slower, can't climb as fast, can't accelerate as fast, can't carry as many weapons, can't climb as high and has a weaker radar
These reports are almost certainly fake. If there is no video it didn't happen, that should be what everyone's philosophy is for this war when looking at anything from either side.
Warriors of different languages have been fighting side by side for thousands of years. Gun fire to or from is another universal language.
“You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me.”
- Alexander Solzhenitsyn
- Alexander Solzhenitsyn
SidsBurnerAccount said:The shipment of Danish anti-tank weapons for #Ukraine has now been delivered 🇩🇰 🇺🇦 #StandWithUkraine @Forsvarsmin pic.twitter.com/u2tC43Jutk
— Denmark MFA 🇩🇰 (@DanishMFA) March 2, 2022
once this enters 'insurgency' stage then watch out.
the Russkies will have to shut the Polish/Slovak border down to stop incoming supplies of weapons
how will they do that?
RebelE Infantry said:BlueSmoke said:HEAT warhead in the Jav, right? Trying to emulate some of the external cage defenses we've seen on AMRAPs, Strikers, etc?dtkprowler said:That's a joke right? Javelin missile made to pierce tank armor and they hope a welded together metal cage is going to protect them? I really hope they are that stupid.baron_von_awesome said:You can see the metal cage on the top of the tank, they are installing those to try and defeat Javelin attacks. Which has nothing to do with the propaganda angle, just I have been seeing videos and stuff on the Russian fear of top down missile anti-tank missile attacks for a couple of months.SidsBurnerAccount said:🇺🇦Equipment abandoned by the Russian army in the area of responsibility of the 128th brigade of the Armed Forces of #Ukraine. pic.twitter.com/7PygVS1gHJ
— Ukraine News 🇺🇦 (@UkraineNews0) March 2, 2022
There are numerous videos of abandoned equipment and captured Russians soldiers all over twitter. I'm not posting all of them, but the volume indicates that the general tenor of what the Ukes are saying is true even if there are obvious propaganda stories being put out.
Not sure if the metal cages work or not, but they should
Correct. The idea is that the slats absorb and/or deflect the explosively formed penetrator warhead. It's essentially trying to create enough stand off distance so that the warhead doesn't have enough energy to penetrate into the ammo magazine
actually the Javelin is able to be used with DUAL warheads
one to take the active armor out, the second to penetrate the target.
For those interested, here's a 2-month old video of Ukrainians testing Javelins against a tank w/ cage armor:
It seems to do less damage, but the tank was still disabled.
It seems to do less damage, but the tank was still disabled.
Slats aren't active armor
They won't be able to by conventional means, anyway. Why I have said repeatedly the invasion is the easy part. The occupation is a different matterLMCane said:SidsBurnerAccount said:The shipment of Danish anti-tank weapons for #Ukraine has now been delivered 🇩🇰 🇺🇦 #StandWithUkraine @Forsvarsmin pic.twitter.com/u2tC43Jutk
— Denmark MFA 🇩🇰 (@DanishMFA) March 2, 2022
once this enters 'insurgency' stage then watch out.
the Russkies will have to shut the Polish/Slovak border down to stop incoming supplies of weapons
how will they do that?
LMCane said:RebelE Infantry said:BlueSmoke said:HEAT warhead in the Jav, right? Trying to emulate some of the external cage defenses we've seen on AMRAPs, Strikers, etc?dtkprowler said:That's a joke right? Javelin missile made to pierce tank armor and they hope a welded together metal cage is going to protect them? I really hope they are that stupid.baron_von_awesome said:You can see the metal cage on the top of the tank, they are installing those to try and defeat Javelin attacks. Which has nothing to do with the propaganda angle, just I have been seeing videos and stuff on the Russian fear of top down missile anti-tank missile attacks for a couple of months.SidsBurnerAccount said:🇺🇦Equipment abandoned by the Russian army in the area of responsibility of the 128th brigade of the Armed Forces of #Ukraine. pic.twitter.com/7PygVS1gHJ
— Ukraine News 🇺🇦 (@UkraineNews0) March 2, 2022
There are numerous videos of abandoned equipment and captured Russians soldiers all over twitter. I'm not posting all of them, but the volume indicates that the general tenor of what the Ukes are saying is true even if there are obvious propaganda stories being put out.
Not sure if the metal cages work or not, but they should
Correct. The idea is that the slats absorb and/or deflect the explosively formed penetrator warhead. It's essentially trying to create enough stand off distance so that the warhead doesn't have enough energy to penetrate into the ammo magazine
actually the Javelin is able to be used with DUAL warheads
one to take the active armor out, the second to penetrate the target.
Correct. Very similar to a TOW as I understand it. (I am not experienced with the Javelin but was a TOW gunner)
Man, if the main counter defense against javelins is a steel pergola, the javelin is still going to punch through it.
No, its not a joke, its sort of like reactive armor or tank skirts, they hope it will cause it to explode OUTSIDE the tank, which is smart. Will it work? I was hoping we would get to find out after a few Russian tanks get hitdtkprowler said:That's a joke right? Javelin missile made to pierce tank armor and they hope a welded together metal cage is going to protect them? I really hope they are that stupid.baron_von_awesome said:You can see the metal cage on the top of the tank, they are installing those to try and defeat Javelin attacks. Which has nothing to do with the propaganda angle, just I have been seeing videos and stuff on the Russian fear of top down missile anti-tank missile attacks for a couple of months.SidsBurnerAccount said:🇺🇦Equipment abandoned by the Russian army in the area of responsibility of the 128th brigade of the Armed Forces of #Ukraine. pic.twitter.com/7PygVS1gHJ
— Ukraine News 🇺🇦 (@UkraineNews0) March 2, 2022
There are numerous videos of abandoned equipment and captured Russians soldiers all over twitter. I'm not posting all of them, but the volume indicates that the general tenor of what the Ukes are saying is true even if there are obvious propaganda stories being put out.
Not sure if the metal cages work or not, but they should
agent-maroon said:
All of this abandoned/captured armament. Like someone posted a while back - where are the IED's?
I can answer this one. Explosives and anti armor stuff was a large portion of my young adult life.
IEDs are actually not the easiest to do. You need pretty decent knowledge and experience to make effective ones and even then it is still dangerous as hell. Will never forget the guy trying to plant one on a foot bridge as I was observing from a post. I was calling it in when he pink misted himself. "Golf CoC, the target has ummm....neutralized himself."
Honestly, the two biggest reasons I see is supplies and PR. You need raw explosives and detonators and that is surprisingly hard to get in most conflicts. In the USMC, we were generally pretty free small arms wise...just ask or take. But C4 and blasting caps? that stuff was treated like unobtanium. It was a pain in the ass to get, and I was specially trained in it's use and had all the right certifications and training and experience. I doubt there is much free Semtex floating around Ukraine right now. You can disassemble munitions but again, REALLY have to know what you are doing there. HME, home made explosives is an option but frankly the net explosive weight of that stuff sucks and generally not worth it. Especially against armor.
Then the PR. Russians start getting popped by IEDs near a village....much greater chance that village dies in fire. Despite all the fierce fighting we are seeing, I still think it is only uniformed Ukes truly fighting. Even if militia. IEDs really starting blurring the lines of warfare....
Maybe so, but it still might work to defeat the attacks.one MEEN Ag said:
Man, if the main counter defense against javelins is a steel pergola, the javelin is still going to punch through it.
wangus12 said:I would assume these teams would operate under some sort of foreign forces branch. While they may not know Ukrainian, the people who are probably organizing these units will probably know English.jabberwalkie09 said:tamuags08 said:How does something like this work and reduce the risk of friendly fire? This is starting to sound like a video game battle royale with different factions being in the same area (although sharing a common enemy). I fear accidental deaths for some of these folks.12th Man Stan Account said:
Interesting comment from a US Navy veteran:I'm noticing a shitload of former OEF/OIF combat vets who are signing up for the international Ukrainian defense force.
— Christopher David (@Tazerface16) March 1, 2022
Some are even forming up their own 50 person platoons and coming over enmass so that they have some autonomy.
Wow!
Godspeed!
I've been wondering how they're going to be able to effectively communicate. Japan has reported some people volunteering and now we have some Americans. I'm sure there's going to be some other countries that volunteers come from. But how will all these groups actually speak to each other? I doubt they know Ukrainian.
Another problem is when will they actually get there. The battle is raging now.
Also in terms of getting there. I can buy a flight from DFW to Krakow, Poland right now and be there in a day or two. Then public transport to Rzeszow and finding a vehicle to get the last 60 miles to the border. Wouldn't shock me if the Polish people would help get you there. They keep saying men are getting over the border to fight
The first part makes sense, thanks. The second part of how I understand. The border between Poland and Ukraine is still open and I've seen the reports of men going back across to fight. My comment was more so of when will this fighting force actually arrive on the field. I understand you could get a flight over in short order, but then there's the part of getting people to their assigned locations and equipped.
Just some thoughts I've had as they have started requesting foreign fighters.
Other than typical "the war is going well" what kind of propaganda is the Russian side even going to put out. They claim they are liberating the people from Nazis. They would need Ukranian celebrations in squares or like "discovering the camps where the Russians are being held" or some other nonsense.
Great post.
It also kind of ties in with the madness of encouraging civilians to attack armored columns with Molotov cocktails.
It also kind of ties in with the madness of encouraging civilians to attack armored columns with Molotov cocktails.
JJxvi said:
Other than typical "the war is going well" what kind of propaganda is the Russian side even going to put out. They claim they are liberating the people from Nazis. They would need Ukranian celebrations in squares or like "discovering the camps where the Russians are being held" or some other nonsense.
Curiously enough, they're really not. Besides their initial saber rattling about Nazis and whatnot (Azov guys don't really help to dispel this btw) the Russian MoD has been more or less quiet.
There are some Twitter accounts that get labeled Russian propaganda but mostly they're trying to give objective tactical updates and confirming as best they can.
Yeah the crazy videos of drive by molotovs is just that crazy.RebelE Infantry said:
Great post.
It also kind of ties in with the madness of encouraging civilians to attack armored columns with Molotov cocktails.
Why would you use an IED when you have a Javelin? They seems to have thousands coming in from lots of countries. Sucks to be a Russian tank crew right now.
And whoever heard of a column without a supporting ground force in front? Do Russians really suck that bad at war or do they really not have the troops to do it?
And whoever heard of a column without a supporting ground force in front? Do Russians really suck that bad at war or do they really not have the troops to do it?
The fact that you believe this says a lot.RebelE Infantry said:JJxvi said:
Other than typical "the war is going well" what kind of propaganda is the Russian side even going to put out. They claim they are liberating the people from Nazis. They would need Ukranian celebrations in squares or like "discovering the camps where the Russians are being held" or some other nonsense.
Curiously enough, they're really not. Besides their initial saber rattling about Nazis and whatnot (Azov guys don't really help to dispel this btw) the Russian MoD has been more or less quiet.
There are some Twitter accounts that get labeled Russian propaganda but mostly they're trying to give objective tactical updates and confirming as best they can.
The reason the Russians are mostly quiet is because they know they have no leg to stand on in justifying their actions.
Could this be more heartbreaking? Such beautiful music in the midst of such suffering! Pray!
Gig'em, Ole Army Class of '70
Build It said:
Why would you use an IED when you have a Javelin? They seems to have thousands coming in from lots of countries. Sucks to be a Russian tank crew right now.
Lol, yes. Also that. Easier to get and use dedicated anti armor weapons like that.
Though the beauty of IEDs is that you don't have to expose yourself to use.
Kinda surprised we are not seeing/hearing more about mines. Those things are awesome on the defense. Cheap, easy to use, damn effective at snaring up attackers....
baron_von_awesome said:Maybe so, but it still might work to defeat the attacks.one MEEN Ag said:
Man, if the main counter defense against javelins is a steel pergola, the javelin is still going to punch through it.
Appears to be using a SPACED armor and REACTIVE armor approach to top attack. Spaced armor gets the initial clearing warhead to detonate while the reactive armor deals with the second warhead.
Should work in theory, don't know in actual practice...
12thFan/Websider Since 2003
Seems like you are exposing yourself to your own IED while you are building/deploying it. The range of a Javelin is over a mile, so that is not very exposed at all in comparison.Eliminatus said:Build It said:
Why would you use an IED when you have a Javelin? They seems to have thousands coming in from lots of countries. Sucks to be a Russian tank crew right now.
Lol, yes. Also that. Easier to get and use dedicated anti armor weapons like that.
Though the beauty of IEDs is that you don't have to expose yourself to use.
Kinda surprised we are not seeing/hearing more about mines. Those things are awesome on the defense. Cheap, easy to use, damn effective at snaring up attackers....
I saw a great Twitter thread yesterday going into detail about this. The gist of it was that the Russian soldiers were told they were liberating the Ukrainians from Nazi control, and expected to be greeted as heroes. Instead, they're being told "go **** yourself," and this is causing low morale in the frontline troops. That information is trickling back into Russia now, but I don't know if it will be enough to cause a groundswell of support to oust Vlad.JJxvi said:
Other than typical "the war is going well" what kind of propaganda is the Russian side even going to put out. They claim they are liberating the people from Nazis. They would need Ukranian celebrations in squares or like "discovering the camps where the Russians are being held" or some other nonsense.
I want what's in those cases…
Eliminatus said:
Honestly, the two biggest reasons I see is supplies and PR. You need raw explosives and detonators and that is surprisingly hard to get in most conflicts. In the USMC, we were generally pretty free small arms wise...just ask or take. But C4 and blasting caps? that stuff was treated like unobtanium. It was a pain in the ass to get, and I was specially trained in it's use and had all the right certifications and training and experience. I doubt there is much free Semtex floating around Ukraine right now. You can disassemble munitions but again, REALLY have to know what you are doing there. HME, home made explosives is an option but frankly the net explosive weight of that stuff sucks and generally not worth it. Especially against armor.
I have watched SEVERAL movies set in post-cold war Eastern Europe and according to that research the Ukraine is one giant warehouse for storing surplus explosives and weapons.
So Russia can just do what it wants and threaten nuclear war if interfered with?
Time to level the Kremlin
Time to level the Kremlin
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