aeroag14 said:

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Wild if true. No reason an SU-35 should be anywhere close to a scenario where it could get shot down by a mig29.

Not trying to downplay the Uke pilots feats. But and advanced 4.5 gen air superiority fighter shouldn't be losing any kind of fight to a 4th gen multi role fighter.

Would be the equivalent of an F-15E losing a fight to an 80s national guard F-16.

The Mig is slower, can't climb as fast, can't accelerate as fast, can't carry as many weapons, can't climb as high and has a weaker radar

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Would take some crazy maneuvering from a helluva pilot.

RebelE Infantry said:

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Aggies75455 said:

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Where are all the Molotov Cocktails? Outside of a couple of car drive by videos I haven't seen anyone using them. I keep waiting for windows to open the fury of hell to rain down.

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Most likely not going to happen because the vast majority of people don't want to get shot to pieces.

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I remember seeing a video over the weekend of a large crowd in Kyiv at night throwing them at Russian vehicles.

aeroag14 said:

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GAC06 said:

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Yeah but Russians are overwhelmingly closer to Europe. They'll need more than China

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Besides the >4000 km border they share with China.....

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Yes and like I said the east is pretty empty. The vast majority of Russians are in Europe

Mas89 said:

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Aggies75455 said:

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Where are all the Molotov Cocktails? Outside of a couple of car drive by videos I haven't seen anyone using them. I keep waiting for windows to open the fury of hell to rain down.

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So Ukraine is of the worlds largest agriculture producers. They must have a huge fleet of crop dusters to fly on fertilizers and chemicals for the grain fields. I assume they would have modern turbo prop planes which could haul and drop 2,000 to 4,000 lbs loads with little changes to the tanks. These are high performance machines with very experienced pilots. Just wonder if any are being used to drop bombs.

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As inept as the ruskies have been, I doubt a prop plane would be able to get anywhere close enough to a convoy to even dream of doing this.

But...stranger things have happened in this fight

wangus12 said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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Aggies75455 said:

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Where are all the Molotov Cocktails? Outside of a couple of car drive by videos I haven't seen anyone using them. I keep waiting for windows to open the fury of hell to rain down.

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Most likely not going to happen because the vast majority of people don't want to get shot to pieces.

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I remember seeing a video over the weekend of a large crowd in Kyiv at night throwing them at Russian vehicles.

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That was from 2014

The Shank Ag said:

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aeroag14 said:

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Wild if true. No reason an SU-35 should be anywhere close to a scenario where it could get shot down by a mig29.

Not trying to downplay the Uke pilots feats. But and advanced 4.5 gen air superiority fighter shouldn't be losing any kind of fight to a 4th gen multi role fighter.

Would be the equivalent of an F-15E losing a fight to an 80s national guard F-16.

The Mig is slower, can't climb as fast, can't accelerate as fast, can't carry as many weapons, can't climb as high and has a weaker radar

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Would take some crazy maneuvering from a helluva pilot.

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Well if it got into a dog fight then sure, the Mig would stand a chance.

My point is that the SU has the advantage in virtually every category except for maybe agility in a dog fight. The moment the SU was engaged, he should have disengaged, gone full afterburner and separated himself from the mig, which is easily done as he can out accelerate, out climb and fly faster than the mig.

Then he should have re engaged when he was far enough away to use his medium range missiles (which I dont believe the Ukes have). Would have virtually guaranteed a SU win.

Just shows the horrific training/tactics of the Russians.

SU-35s use thrust vectoring so they are extremely maneuverable. This was one of the Russian responses to the F-22. They knew their own Raptorski was decades away, but they could integrate some of the tech into the SU-27 and give it a fighting change should it get into a dogfight with a F-22, and thus the SU-35 was born.

That said, in the end it all comes down to the skill of the pilots. A mediocre to average pilot in a top tier fighter will be at best evenly matched against an extremely skilled pilot in a less, but still effective fighter.

All that said, the story may be true, it may be false, but it not outside the realm of possibility.

Isn't the whole point of the F22 that they don't do dogfights any more? The air to air missiles get launched over the horizon.

Rapier108 said:

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SU-35s use thrust vectoring so they are extremely maneuverable. This was one of the Russian responses to the F-22. They knew their own Raptorski was decades away, but they could integrate some of the tech into the SU-27 and give it a fighting change should it get into a dogfight with a F-22, and thus the SU-35 was born.

That said, in the end it all comes down to the skill of the pilots. A mediocre to average pilot in a top tier fighter will be at best evenly matched against an extremely skilled pilot in a less, but still effective fighter.

All that said, the story may be true, it may be false, but it not outside the realm of possibility.

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Another possibility to consider, assuming the story is true, is that the Migs were guided by NATO AWACS. Which I presume is superior to the Russian version, but don't really know for sure. Just spitballing

I watch a lot of DCS simulated dogfights now and then and the modeled Mig29 can hold its own in the simulator. It all depends on the range and conditions of the encounter, who has the speed and altitude advantage, the weapon load outs, and which pilot knows the strengths and weaknesses of their own aircraft and the other better.

Rapier108 said:

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SU-35s use thrust vectoring so they are extremely maneuverable. This was one of the Russian responses to the F-22. They knew their own Raptorski was decades away, but they could integrate some of the tech into the SU-27 and give it a fighting change should it get into a dogfight with a F-22, and thus the SU-35 was born.

That said, in the end it all comes down to the skill of the pilots. A mediocre to average pilot in a top tier fighter will be at best evenly matched against an extremely skilled pilot in a less, but still effective fighter.

All that said, the story may be true, it may be false, but it not outside the realm of possibility.

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I agree with everything you have said. If the fight got to a within visual range dog fight, it would come down to skillful pilots.

What I am saying is that basic strategy would say that it should never have been a within visual range dog fight. It shouldnt have come down to the skill of the pilot. The SU pilot should have relied on his superior aircraft and weapon and never put himself or his aircraft at risk.

So, certainly the Uke pilot deserves credit. All I am saying is that the Russian tactics and training are (again) being proven to be horrible. They basically just threw away 2 SU-35s

jabberwalkie09 said:

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tamuags08 said:

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12th Man Stan Account said:

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Interesting comment from a US Navy veteran:

I'm noticing a shitload of former OEF/OIF combat vets who are signing up for the international Ukrainian defense force.

Some are even forming up their own 50 person platoons and coming over enmass so that they have some autonomy.

Wow!

— Christopher David (@Tazerface16) March 1, 2022

Godspeed!

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How does something like this work and reduce the risk of friendly fire? This is starting to sound like a video game battle royale with different factions being in the same area (although sharing a common enemy). I fear accidental deaths for some of these folks.

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I've been wondering how they're going to be able to effectively communicate. Japan has reported some people volunteering and now we have some Americans. I'm sure there's going to be some other countries that volunteers come from. But how will all these groups actually speak to each other? I doubt they know Ukrainian.

Another problem is when will they actually get there. The battle is raging now.

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I would assume these teams would operate under some sort of foreign forces branch. While they may not know Ukrainian, the people who are probably organizing these units will probably know English.

Also in terms of getting there. I can buy a flight from DFW to Krakow, Poland right now and be there in a day or two. Then public transport to Rzeszow and finding a vehicle to get the last 60 miles to the border. Wouldn't shock me if the Polish people would help get you there. They keep saying men are getting over the border to fight

one MEEN Ag said:

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Isn't the whole point of the F22 that they don't do dogfights any more? The air to air missiles get launched over the horizon.

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Sort of. The F-22s stealth allows it to get closer to targets. But for other 4th and 4.5 gen air superiority fighters (F-15, SU-35, etc) the tactics you mention are generally what they go for. Which was my point about how there was no world where a mig 29 should shoot down a su35.

aeroag14 said:

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one MEEN Ag said:

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Isn't the whole point of the F22 that they don't do dogfights any more? The air to air missiles get launched over the horizon.

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Sort of. The F-22s stealth allows it to get closer to targets. But for other 4th and 4.5 gen air superiority fighters (F-15, SU-35, etc) the tactics you mention are generally what they go for. Which was my point about how there was no world where a mig 29 should shoot down a su35.

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Thanks for the info.

I defer to your expertise in this matter.

As you might be able to infer from my username- air combat isn't my specialty.

RebelE Infantry said:

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Rapier108 said:

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SU-35s use thrust vectoring so they are extremely maneuverable. This was one of the Russian responses to the F-22. They knew their own Raptorski was decades away, but they could integrate some of the tech into the SU-27 and give it a fighting change should it get into a dogfight with a F-22, and thus the SU-35 was born.

That said, in the end it all comes down to the skill of the pilots. A mediocre to average pilot in a top tier fighter will be at best evenly matched against an extremely skilled pilot in a less, but still effective fighter.

All that said, the story may be true, it may be false, but it not outside the realm of possibility.

---

Another possibility to consider, assuming the story is true, is that the Migs were guided by NATO AWACS. Which I presume is superior to the Russian version, but don't really know for sure. Just spitballing

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In some capacity, maybe, but not in a sense that could be super useful to the Ukrainian migs. The extent to which they could help is likely limited to verbal communication as to where enemy planes are. The NATO/US assets generally coordinate target tracking data on one of a few messaging systems which the Ukrainian planes do not have. So they have no direct way to receiving target track data. Which means they are likely reliant on their own air radar assets.

BQwolf05 said:

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So it has been asked about the media is reporting and what is the perception in Russia.

Listened to this podcast this morning that interviewed an independent media outlet in Russia.

Today, Explained What Russians think of Putin's war

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Also would recommend listening if you have 25 minutes. Great interview. He estimates that roughly 60% of Russians (usually older citizens) consume mostly state media and are largely unaware of what's going on.

One quote from the independent Russian journalist :
"At this point, my job is basically documenting my country's war crimes"

Why does nato have mig-29 instead of US fighters?

GAC06 said:

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You guys arguing about the supposed aerial engagement:

It's probably propaganda

Situational awareness matters more than any other factor. Rates of climb and maneuverability and what not is neat but not useful if you don't know where the enemy is. It is possible we are helping with AWACS and that would be a huge help although I have my doubts about doctrine and interoperability.

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Rate of climb and ability to disengage ABSOLUTELY matter, especially when your enemy is limited to short range IR missiles. If you can disengage, and accelerate out of the fight, an SU35 can easily out run a short range missile.

wangus12 said:

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jabberwalkie09 said:

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tamuags08 said:

---

12th Man Stan Account said:

---

Interesting comment from a US Navy veteran:

I'm noticing a shitload of former OEF/OIF combat vets who are signing up for the international Ukrainian defense force.

Some are even forming up their own 50 person platoons and coming over enmass so that they have some autonomy.

Wow!

— Christopher David (@Tazerface16) March 1, 2022

Godspeed!

---

How does something like this work and reduce the risk of friendly fire? This is starting to sound like a video game battle royale with different factions being in the same area (although sharing a common enemy). I fear accidental deaths for some of these folks.

---

I've been wondering how they're going to be able to effectively communicate. Japan has reported some people volunteering and now we have some Americans. I'm sure there's going to be some other countries that volunteers come from. But how will all these groups actually speak to each other? I doubt they know Ukrainian.

Another problem is when will they actually get there. The battle is raging now.

---

I would assume these teams would operate under some sort of foreign forces branch. While they may not know Ukrainian, the people who are probably organizing these units will probably know English.

Also in terms of getting there. I can buy a flight from DFW to Krakow, Poland right now and be there in a day or two. Then public transport to Rzeszow and finding a vehicle to get the last 60 miles to the border. Wouldn't shock me if the Polish people would help get you there. They keep saying men are getting over the border to fight

---

Hitchhiking works pretty well in that part of the world.

These aren't NATO MiG-29's they're Ukrainian if this is real. Some former Soviet NATO countries still have Russian made jets

MagnumLoad said:

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Why does nato have mig-29 instead of US fighters?

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Legacy equipment.

aeroag14 said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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Rapier108 said:

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SU-35s use thrust vectoring so they are extremely maneuverable. This was one of the Russian responses to the F-22. They knew their own Raptorski was decades away, but they could integrate some of the tech into the SU-27 and give it a fighting change should it get into a dogfight with a F-22, and thus the SU-35 was born.

That said, in the end it all comes down to the skill of the pilots. A mediocre to average pilot in a top tier fighter will be at best evenly matched against an extremely skilled pilot in a less, but still effective fighter.

All that said, the story may be true, it may be false, but it not outside the realm of possibility.

---

Another possibility to consider, assuming the story is true, is that the Migs were guided by NATO AWACS. Which I presume is superior to the Russian version, but don't really know for sure. Just spitballing

---

In some capacity, maybe, but not in a sense that could be super useful to the Ukrainian migs. The extent to which they could help is likely limited to verbal communication as to where enemy planes are. The NATO/US assets generally coordinate target tracking data on one of a few messaging systems which the Ukrainian planes do not have. So they have no direct way to receiving target track data. Which means they are likely reliant on their own air radar assets.

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That makes sense, thanks. Didn't consider the actual delivery mechanism for the data.

SidsBurnerAccount said:

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🇺🇦Equipment abandoned by the Russian army in the area of responsibility of the 128th brigade of the Armed Forces of #Ukraine. pic.twitter.com/7PygVS1gHJ

— Ukraine News 🇺🇦 (@UkraineNews0) March 2, 2022

There are numerous videos of abandoned equipment and captured Russians soldiers all over twitter. I'm not posting all of them, but the volume indicates that the general tenor of what the Ukes are saying is true even if there are obvious propaganda stories being put out.

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You can see the metal cage on the top of the tank, they are installing those to try and defeat Javelin attacks. Which has nothing to do with the propaganda angle, just I have been seeing videos and stuff on the Russian fear of top down missile anti-tank missile attacks for a couple of months.


Not sure if the metal cages work or not, but they should

aeroag14 said:

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GAC06 said:

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You guys arguing about the supposed aerial engagement:

It's probably propaganda

Situational awareness matters more than any other factor. Rates of climb and maneuverability and what not is neat but not useful if you don't know where the enemy is. It is possible we are helping with AWACS and that would be a huge help although I have my doubts about doctrine and interoperability.

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Rate of climb and ability to disengage ABSOLUTELY matter, especially when your enemy is limited to short range IR missiles. If you can disengage, and accelerate out of the fight, an SU35 can easily out run a short range missile.

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Dude consider your audience please.

It's probably fake, and nerding out on stats and specifications is pretty pointless.

MagnumLoad said:

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Why does nato have mig-29 instead of US fighters?

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Leftovers in some eastern European NATO members (Poland, etc.)

MagnumLoad said:

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Why does nato have mig-29 instead of US fighters?

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Fear of stationing them in a country prone to be taken over/losing 80 million dollar aircraft?

MagnumLoad said:

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Why does nato have mig-29 instead of US fighters?

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This isn't uncommon in the eastern bloc countries. They're leftover Cold War/post fall of the Soviet Union equipment that's usually been upgraded as a stop gap while they figured out what to do equipment wise. Many of these countries will be replacing their old equipment with F-16's and F-35's iirc. Germany had MiG-29's for quite some time and I think they just recently retired them.

baron_von_awesome said:

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SidsBurnerAccount said:

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🇺🇦Equipment abandoned by the Russian army in the area of responsibility of the 128th brigade of the Armed Forces of #Ukraine. pic.twitter.com/7PygVS1gHJ

— Ukraine News 🇺🇦 (@UkraineNews0) March 2, 2022

There are numerous videos of abandoned equipment and captured Russians soldiers all over twitter. I'm not posting all of them, but the volume indicates that the general tenor of what the Ukes are saying is true even if there are obvious propaganda stories being put out.

---

You can see the metal cage on the top of the tank, they are installing those to try and defeat Javelin attacks. Which has nothing to do with the propaganda angle, just I have been seeing videos and stuff on the Russian fear of top down missile anti-tank missile attacks for a couple of months.


Not sure if the metal cages work or not, but they should

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That's a joke right? Javelin missile made to pierce tank armor and they hope a welded together metal cage is going to protect them? I really hope they are that stupid.