Earlier this year ...

How many read the "You can do it" in your Arnold Schwarzenegger voice?

Yeah - I just don't see how this is "tearing down" Strug.

TXTransplant said:

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I've been following this story and these threads, and I think everyone is misinterpreting that guy's take on the events.

It's not a "tearing-down" of Kerri Strug. She is unarguably the "hero" of the situation. I remember watching it live, and it was one of those moments that just gives you chills and brings tears to your eyes.

It's pointing out the intimidation by a much older adult/authority figure of an 18 year old girl. And while 18 might ~technically~ be an adult, she was being intimidated by a coach who had pretty much controlled her entire life during her teenaged years. Who knows what all went on behind the scenes between those girls and the coaches in the years leading up to that one moment we saw on tv. We probably don't want to know.

I'm all for a great perseverance story. But gymnastics is not track and field or swimming. If you lose your focus in a sprint, you just lose to someone who is faster.

A split second loss of focus or a fraction of a misstep in gymnastics could mean paralysis or death. Runners and swimmer simply don't face that risk.

Several of the gymnasts who were coached under the Karolyis have come out and said the environment was physically and emotionally abusive - not including the sexual abuse many of them endured by the team doctor.

Dominique Moceanu has been particularly outspoken about how her body wasn't hers and she was pressured to compete when she was injured.

Kerri Strug herself has come out in support of Biles. You've got to recognize that this is about these girls now being able to assert themselves and make decisions for themselves and their bodies without fear of retribution.

Being an elite athlete is not easy and requires a lot of sacrifice. But no one should have to endure abuse of any kind to win a gold medal. And I think that's exactly what these women are saying.

They are making their own decisions, rather than trying to make their coaches, parents, or the American public happy. Because in a few weeks or months, no one is going to care that Simone Biles pulled out of the competition. She is the only one who has to come to terms with that decision. And if she honestly felt the risk (which realistically included death or paralysis) wasn't worth the reward, she should be free to make that choice for herself without having to answer to anyone.

I think this sport (and probably quite a few others) has a very dark underside that includes child abuse, given how young these kids are when they start elite training. That needs to change, and the only way that it will change will be for these girls and women to have and be supported in their autonomy.

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Perhaps....but his "hot take" is flying through the internet as though it is the story of Kerri Strug.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But let us hear it from Strug herself and not this sitzpinkler.

It's one thing to sit out at the lower levels of competition, but to do it at the higher level of competition and still be called the GOAT is wrong. I don't have a problem with Simone Biles sitting out for her safety, but she could have explained that she was feeling disoriented instead of focusing on ourselves. I especially don't like how the media is making her a hero for doing it. Ordinary US citizens face various types of psychological or mental issues in their jobs, but they don't get to step away when they want to.

TXTransplant said:

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They are making their own decisions, rather than trying to make their coaches, parents, or the American public happy.

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Seems to me that most of the criticism she has received is a reaction to the immediate and focused attempt to lionize her.

All the "ThEy dOn'T Owe yOU" people are missing the point. I don't think most Americans care whether Biles performed or not; rather, they are fed up with the media/celebrity/political complex's willingness to gaslight everyone at the drop of a hat.

So when the blue checkmark brigade circled the wagons around her almost as if by plan, lots of regular folks reacted the other way -- instinctively.

Also, there is something about the growing use of "mental health" as an excuse from celebrities and athletes that puts people off. Lots of folks working at HEB or driving a truck have issues, too. They don't get to drop that line to get out of responsibility.

And again, just admit you were not up to it at that moment and had to make a snap decision. If you are a driver or flier saying are going to "take some time off" and some kind of systemic outlook DO THAT before queuing up on a runway.

Like many things that are all or nothing, I think this story and the Simone Bile story fits. My hot takes:

1. The Strug vault while courageous, was not a make-or-break ass on the line for the gold moment. Had she not done it she would have still gotten the gold. Asking someone to vault on a broken leg with no change to the expected payoff isn't courageous, it's toxic. I think it's ok to reevaluate what coaches asked an 18 year old to do and why they asked her to do it. If that was my daughter, I would be pissed.

2. Simone Biles can quit for her mental health. I have zero problems with that except...

3. You quit before you get to the Olympics. The second you sign up and take the spot, money, is the second you commit to being a competitor. Nobody forced her to do that. Quitting literally during the finals is peak selfishness. I have zero sympathy for someone that commits to something that high stakes and pulls out when faced with adversity.

Tl;dr - Rethinking the toxic culture of what Kerri did does not make what Biles did ok.

Kerri Strugg thinks Simone is the GOAT.

Just to re-adjust and re-direct the thread....this isn't about Biles....this thread is about the active revision of history that robs Kerri Strug of her own agency and her heroic feats to fit a contemporary narrative.

Squadron7 said:

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Just to re-adjust and re-direct the thread....this isn't about Biles....this thread is about the active revision of history that robs Kerri Strug of her own agency and her heroic feats to fit a contemporary narrative.

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No, it's a new lens from which to view the same facts.

1. How much agency did she really have in that toxic culture?
2. How heroic is it to vault on a broken foot when the outcome, winning, is the same no matter what? Is it heroism or foolishness?

Kerri Strug competed at the 1996, which was essentially the first post-Cold War Olympics. The rivalries with the Soviet-era athletes was still very real, particularly in gymnastics. While still important, the Olympics don't have that same sense of urgency they did during the Cold War and right after. Especially in a time where professional athletes compete in the Games.

What's this I hear that it was the IOC that told her she'd have to do more than everyone else to win? Is that proven or just a rumor?

agdaddy04 said:

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What's this I hear that it was the IOC that told her she'd have to do more than everyone else to win? Is that proven or just a rumor?

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Doesn't anyone who wants to win 1st place in any event have to "do more than everyone else"?

Malibu2 said:

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Squadron7 said:

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Just to re-adjust and re-direct the thread....this isn't about Biles....this thread is about the active revision of history that robs Kerri Strug of her own agency and her heroic feats to fit a contemporary narrative.

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No, it's a new lens from which to view the same facts.

1. How much agency did she really have in that toxic culture?
2. How heroic is it to vault on a broken foot when the outcome, winning, is the same no matter what? Is it heroism or foolishness?

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Screw the "new lens". That is a crap excuse to interject ourselves into the story. Strug is still alive. We should ask her instead of some internet hand-wringer.

rgag12 said:

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agdaddy04 said:

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What's this I hear that it was the IOC that told her she'd have to do more than everyone else to win? Is that proven or just a rumor?

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Doesn't anyone who wants to win 1st place in any event have to "do more than everyone else"?

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No I mean that her "points" would count less than everyone elses. The comparison was telling Tom Brady his touchdowns would only be worth 4 points when everyone else still gets 6.

GAC06 said:

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"Forced her retirement at 18"

Doesn't virtually every female Olympic gymnast retire around then?

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Not Biles. She's 24.

TXTransplant said:

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A split second loss of focus or a fraction of a misstep in gymnastics could mean paralysis or death. Runners and swimmer simply don't face that risk.

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Can you show us where a gymnast was killed or paralyzed? And, interesting you pick runners & swimmers as comparisons.

Why did she wait until AFTER having a performance that wasn't what SHE expected to quit? Why not quit BEFORE going across the world to compete? Seems a bit selfish on her part IMO.

Malibu2 said:

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Like many things that are all or nothing, I think this story and the Simone Bile story fits. My hot takes:

1. The Strug vault while courageous, was not a make-or-break ass on the line for the gold moment. Had she not done it she would have still gotten the gold. Asking someone to vault on a broken leg with no change to the expected payoff isn't courageous, it's toxic. I think it's ok to reevaluate what coaches asked an 18 year old to do and why they asked her to do it. If that was my daughter, I would be pissed.

2. Simone Biles can quit for her mental health. I have zero problems with that except...

3. You quit before you get to the Olympics. The second you sign up and take the spot, money, is the second you commit to being a competitor. Nobody forced her to do that. Quitting literally during the finals is peak selfishness. I have zero sympathy for someone that commits to something that high stakes and pulls out when faced with adversity.

Tl;dr - Rethinking the toxic culture of what Kerri did does not make what Biles did ok.

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She didn't know that at the time of the vault. This is revisionist b.s. You are trying to take away one of the greatest moments in sports history.

I imagine Suni Lee's phone is blowing up today with offers.

Squadron7 said:

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Malibu2 said:

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Squadron7 said:

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Just to re-adjust and re-direct the thread....this isn't about Biles....this thread is about the active revision of history that robs Kerri Strug of her own agency and her heroic feats to fit a contemporary narrative.

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No, it's a new lens from which to view the same facts.

1. How much agency did she really have in that toxic culture?
2. How heroic is it to vault on a broken foot when the outcome, winning, is the same no matter what? Is it heroism or foolishness?

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Screw the "new lens". That is a crap excuse to interject ourselves into the story. Strug is still alive. We should ask her instead of some internet hand-wringer.

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Our values and mores change with the times, and our judgment of the same facts change with them. I don't see why that point is worth arguing.

Your point on using Strug as a primary source is well taken and I think should be the end of the discussion on this issue.

12thMan9 said:

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TXTransplant said:

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A split second loss of focus or a fraction of a misstep in gymnastics could mean paralysis or death. Runners and swimmer simply don't face that risk.

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Can you show us where a gymnast was killed or paralyzed? And, interesting you pick runners & swimmers as comparisons.

Why did she wait until AFTER having a performance that wasn't what SHE expected to quit? Why not quit BEFORE going across the world to compete? Seems a bit selfish on her part IMO.

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https://www.wfsb.com/sports/gymnastics-deaths-are-rare-but-previous-disasters-have-prompted-safety-changes/article_d0b6cda8-e484-5e43-877e-a16dc930346b.html

TXTransplant said:

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I've been following this story and these threads, and I think everyone is misinterpreting that guy's take on the events.

It's not a "tearing-down" of Kerri Strug. She is unarguably the "hero" of the situation. I remember watching it live, and it was one of those moments that just gives you chills and brings tears to your eyes.

It's pointing out the intimidation by a much older adult/authority figure of an 18 year old girl. And while 18 might ~technically~ be an adult, she was being intimidated by a coach who had pretty much controlled her entire life during her teenaged years. Who knows what all went on behind the scenes between those girls and the coaches in the years leading up to that one moment we saw on tv. We probably don't want to know.

I'm all for a great perseverance story. But gymnastics is not track and field or swimming. If you lose your focus in a sprint, you just lose to someone who is faster.

A split second loss of focus or a fraction of a misstep in gymnastics could mean paralysis or death. Runners and swimmer simply don't face that risk.

Several of the gymnasts who were coached under the Karolyis have come out and said the environment was physically and emotionally abusive - not including the sexual abuse many of them endured by the team doctor.

Dominique Moceanu has been particularly outspoken about how her body wasn't hers and she was pressured to compete when she was injured.

Kerri Strug herself has come out in support of Biles. You've got to recognize that this is about these girls now being able to assert themselves and make decisions for themselves and their bodies without fear of retribution.

Being an elite athlete is not easy and requires a lot of sacrifice. But no one should have to endure abuse of any kind to win a gold medal. And I think that's exactly what these women are saying.

They are making their own decisions, rather than trying to make their coaches, parents, or the American public happy. Because in a few weeks or months, no one is going to care that Simone Biles pulled out of the competition. She is the only one who has to come to terms with that decision. And if she honestly felt the risk (which realistically included death or paralysis) wasn't worth the reward, she should be free to make that choice for herself without having to answer to anyone.

I think this sport (and probably quite a few others) has a very dark underside that includes child abuse, given how young these kids are when they start elite training. That needs to change, and the only way that it will change will be for these girls and women to have and be supported in their autonomy.

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While I don't think any rational human being would advocate for abuse, you are victimizing these athletes to score points on the internet rather than celebrating their accomplishments. We can talk about abuse and mental health...sure...but thats not why you brought this up. You brought this up to somehow minimize what they were able to do...To victimize them...to say their true accomplishments weren't their own. This is pathetic.

Squadron7 said:

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I imagine Suni Lee's phone is blowing up today with offers.

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And she attended the world championships in 2019 while her dad, just a day or two before was in a horrible accident that left him in a wheelchair.

She should have just quit I suppose. Mental stuff is hard.

rgag12 said:

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agdaddy04 said:

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What's this I hear that it was the IOC that told her she'd have to do more than everyone else to win? Is that proven or just a rumor?

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Doesn't anyone who wants to win 1st place in any event have to "do more than everyone else"?

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Generally, but even a battle or a war, sometimes one contender "wants it far more" than the other, and is less willing to tolerate obstacles let alone any kind of show up and mail-it-in approach (which Rangers seem to be doing because Daniels does not inspire).

For those unfamiliar (like me) with the "twisties" this is a good article with examples of other gymnasts injuring themselves from it. It's basically doing extra twists or flips when you don't need to

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57986166

Tex117 said:

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Malibu2 said:

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Like many things that are all or nothing, I think this story and the Simone Bile story fits. My hot takes:

1. The Strug vault while courageous, was not a make-or-break ass on the line for the gold moment. Had she not done it she would have still gotten the gold. Asking someone to vault on a broken leg with no change to the expected payoff isn't courageous, it's toxic. I think it's ok to reevaluate what coaches asked an 18 year old to do and why they asked her to do it. If that was my daughter, I would be pissed.

2. Simone Biles can quit for her mental health. I have zero problems with that except...

3. You quit before you get to the Olympics. The second you sign up and take the spot, money, is the second you commit to being a competitor. Nobody forced her to do that. Quitting literally during the finals is peak selfishness. I have zero sympathy for someone that commits to something that high stakes and pulls out when faced with adversity.

Tl;dr - Rethinking the toxic culture of what Kerri did does not make what Biles did ok.

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She didn't know that at the time of the vault. This is revisionist b.s. You are trying to take away one of the greatest moments in sports history.

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Revisionist history should be avoided. If I'm factually wrong that she didn't know whether or not her vault was necessary, let's let it all be out. I don't want to twist the play by play and what did we know and when did we know it to make a point.

After we do that though, it's worth asking whether or not that should still be considered the greatest moment in sports history, or a cautionary tale of toxic culture and the sacrifice of life and limb.

People make references to Rudder. I'm suggesting a better analogy may be the WW1 soldiers at the beginning of the war, medals glistening bayonets polished, charging against the machine gun. Valor and heroism are worth defending, always. Pointless sacrifice is not.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/kerri-strug-usa-gold/

According to this it was not known at the time if the USA would have won gold without Strug's vault.

StandUpforAmerica said:

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It's called the pussification of America.

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And if Strug would have collapsed the landing with a double compound leg fracture???

Proud to know my children are gonna dominate all these pathetic liberal betas infesting this country

Horn_in_Aggieland said:

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https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/kerri-strug-usa-gold/

According to this it was not known at the time if the USA would have won gold without Strug's vault.

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1) Lol snopes

2) Great point. So let's remove the "this was all pointless" from the argument and view it from what actually happened.

My Name Is Judge said:

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Proud to know my children are gonna dominate all these pathetic liberal betas infesting this country

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All it's going to take is five gold medals for your kids to stick it to Biles.