Earlier this year ...
TXTransplant said:
I've been following this story and these threads, and I think everyone is misinterpreting that guy's take on the events.
It's not a "tearing-down" of Kerri Strug. She is unarguably the "hero" of the situation. I remember watching it live, and it was one of those moments that just gives you chills and brings tears to your eyes.
It's pointing out the intimidation by a much older adult/authority figure of an 18 year old girl. And while 18 might ~technically~ be an adult, she was being intimidated by a coach who had pretty much controlled her entire life during her teenaged years. Who knows what all went on behind the scenes between those girls and the coaches in the years leading up to that one moment we saw on tv. We probably don't want to know.
I'm all for a great perseverance story. But gymnastics is not track and field or swimming. If you lose your focus in a sprint, you just lose to someone who is faster.
A split second loss of focus or a fraction of a misstep in gymnastics could mean paralysis or death. Runners and swimmer simply don't face that risk.
Several of the gymnasts who were coached under the Karolyis have come out and said the environment was physically and emotionally abusive - not including the sexual abuse many of them endured by the team doctor.
Dominique Moceanu has been particularly outspoken about how her body wasn't hers and she was pressured to compete when she was injured.
Kerri Strug herself has come out in support of Biles. You've got to recognize that this is about these girls now being able to assert themselves and make decisions for themselves and their bodies without fear of retribution.
Being an elite athlete is not easy and requires a lot of sacrifice. But no one should have to endure abuse of any kind to win a gold medal. And I think that's exactly what these women are saying.
They are making their own decisions, rather than trying to make their coaches, parents, or the American public happy. Because in a few weeks or months, no one is going to care that Simone Biles pulled out of the competition. She is the only one who has to come to terms with that decision. And if she honestly felt the risk (which realistically included death or paralysis) wasn't worth the reward, she should be free to make that choice for herself without having to answer to anyone.
I think this sport (and probably quite a few others) has a very dark underside that includes child abuse, given how young these kids are when they start elite training. That needs to change, and the only way that it will change will be for these girls and women to have and be supported in their autonomy.
aquarian said:
Yeah - I just don't see how this is "tearing down" Strug.
Seems to me that most of the criticism she has received is a reaction to the immediate and focused attempt to lionize her.TXTransplant said:
They are making their own decisions, rather than trying to make their coaches, parents, or the American public happy.
No, it's a new lens from which to view the same facts.Squadron7 said:
Just to re-adjust and re-direct the thread....this isn't about Biles....this thread is about the active revision of history that robs Kerri Strug of her own agency and her heroic feats to fit a contemporary narrative.
agdaddy04 said:
What's this I hear that it was the IOC that told her she'd have to do more than everyone else to win? Is that proven or just a rumor?
Malibu2 said:No, it's a new lens from which to view the same facts.Squadron7 said:
Just to re-adjust and re-direct the thread....this isn't about Biles....this thread is about the active revision of history that robs Kerri Strug of her own agency and her heroic feats to fit a contemporary narrative.
1. How much agency did she really have in that toxic culture?
2. How heroic is it to vault on a broken foot when the outcome, winning, is the same no matter what? Is it heroism or foolishness?
No I mean that her "points" would count less than everyone elses. The comparison was telling Tom Brady his touchdowns would only be worth 4 points when everyone else still gets 6.rgag12 said:agdaddy04 said:
What's this I hear that it was the IOC that told her she'd have to do more than everyone else to win? Is that proven or just a rumor?
Doesn't anyone who wants to win 1st place in any event have to "do more than everyone else"?
Not Biles. She's 24.GAC06 said:
"Forced her retirement at 18"
Doesn't virtually every female Olympic gymnast retire around then?
Can you show us where a gymnast was killed or paralyzed? And, interesting you pick runners & swimmers as comparisons.TXTransplant said:
A split second loss of focus or a fraction of a misstep in gymnastics could mean paralysis or death. Runners and swimmer simply don't face that risk.
She didn't know that at the time of the vault. This is revisionist b.s. You are trying to take away one of the greatest moments in sports history.Malibu2 said:
Like many things that are all or nothing, I think this story and the Simone Bile story fits. My hot takes:
1. The Strug vault while courageous, was not a make-or-break ass on the line for the gold moment. Had she not done it she would have still gotten the gold. Asking someone to vault on a broken leg with no change to the expected payoff isn't courageous, it's toxic. I think it's ok to reevaluate what coaches asked an 18 year old to do and why they asked her to do it. If that was my daughter, I would be pissed.
2. Simone Biles can quit for her mental health. I have zero problems with that except...
3. You quit before you get to the Olympics. The second you sign up and take the spot, money, is the second you commit to being a competitor. Nobody forced her to do that. Quitting literally during the finals is peak selfishness. I have zero sympathy for someone that commits to something that high stakes and pulls out when faced with adversity.
Tl;dr - Rethinking the toxic culture of what Kerri did does not make what Biles did ok.
Our values and mores change with the times, and our judgment of the same facts change with them. I don't see why that point is worth arguing.Squadron7 said:Screw the "new lens". That is a crap excuse to interject ourselves into the story. Strug is still alive. We should ask her instead of some internet hand-wringer.Malibu2 said:No, it's a new lens from which to view the same facts.Squadron7 said:
Just to re-adjust and re-direct the thread....this isn't about Biles....this thread is about the active revision of history that robs Kerri Strug of her own agency and her heroic feats to fit a contemporary narrative.
1. How much agency did she really have in that toxic culture?
2. How heroic is it to vault on a broken foot when the outcome, winning, is the same no matter what? Is it heroism or foolishness?
https://www.wfsb.com/sports/gymnastics-deaths-are-rare-but-previous-disasters-have-prompted-safety-changes/article_d0b6cda8-e484-5e43-877e-a16dc930346b.html12thMan9 said:Can you show us where a gymnast was killed or paralyzed? And, interesting you pick runners & swimmers as comparisons.TXTransplant said:
A split second loss of focus or a fraction of a misstep in gymnastics could mean paralysis or death. Runners and swimmer simply don't face that risk.
Why did she wait until AFTER having a performance that wasn't what SHE expected to quit? Why not quit BEFORE going across the world to compete? Seems a bit selfish on her part IMO.
While I don't think any rational human being would advocate for abuse, you are victimizing these athletes to score points on the internet rather than celebrating their accomplishments. We can talk about abuse and mental health...sure...but thats not why you brought this up. You brought this up to somehow minimize what they were able to do...To victimize them...to say their true accomplishments weren't their own. This is pathetic.TXTransplant said:
I've been following this story and these threads, and I think everyone is misinterpreting that guy's take on the events.
It's not a "tearing-down" of Kerri Strug. She is unarguably the "hero" of the situation. I remember watching it live, and it was one of those moments that just gives you chills and brings tears to your eyes.
It's pointing out the intimidation by a much older adult/authority figure of an 18 year old girl. And while 18 might ~technically~ be an adult, she was being intimidated by a coach who had pretty much controlled her entire life during her teenaged years. Who knows what all went on behind the scenes between those girls and the coaches in the years leading up to that one moment we saw on tv. We probably don't want to know.
I'm all for a great perseverance story. But gymnastics is not track and field or swimming. If you lose your focus in a sprint, you just lose to someone who is faster.
A split second loss of focus or a fraction of a misstep in gymnastics could mean paralysis or death. Runners and swimmer simply don't face that risk.
Several of the gymnasts who were coached under the Karolyis have come out and said the environment was physically and emotionally abusive - not including the sexual abuse many of them endured by the team doctor.
Dominique Moceanu has been particularly outspoken about how her body wasn't hers and she was pressured to compete when she was injured.
Kerri Strug herself has come out in support of Biles. You've got to recognize that this is about these girls now being able to assert themselves and make decisions for themselves and their bodies without fear of retribution.
Being an elite athlete is not easy and requires a lot of sacrifice. But no one should have to endure abuse of any kind to win a gold medal. And I think that's exactly what these women are saying.
They are making their own decisions, rather than trying to make their coaches, parents, or the American public happy. Because in a few weeks or months, no one is going to care that Simone Biles pulled out of the competition. She is the only one who has to come to terms with that decision. And if she honestly felt the risk (which realistically included death or paralysis) wasn't worth the reward, she should be free to make that choice for herself without having to answer to anyone.
I think this sport (and probably quite a few others) has a very dark underside that includes child abuse, given how young these kids are when they start elite training. That needs to change, and the only way that it will change will be for these girls and women to have and be supported in their autonomy.
And she attended the world championships in 2019 while her dad, just a day or two before was in a horrible accident that left him in a wheelchair.Squadron7 said:
I imagine Suni Lee's phone is blowing up today with offers.
Generally, but even a battle or a war, sometimes one contender "wants it far more" than the other, and is less willing to tolerate obstacles let alone any kind of show up and mail-it-in approach (which Rangers seem to be doing because Daniels does not inspire).rgag12 said:agdaddy04 said:
What's this I hear that it was the IOC that told her she'd have to do more than everyone else to win? Is that proven or just a rumor?
Doesn't anyone who wants to win 1st place in any event have to "do more than everyone else"?
Revisionist history should be avoided. If I'm factually wrong that she didn't know whether or not her vault was necessary, let's let it all be out. I don't want to twist the play by play and what did we know and when did we know it to make a point.Tex117 said:She didn't know that at the time of the vault. This is revisionist b.s. You are trying to take away one of the greatest moments in sports history.Malibu2 said:
Like many things that are all or nothing, I think this story and the Simone Bile story fits. My hot takes:
1. The Strug vault while courageous, was not a make-or-break ass on the line for the gold moment. Had she not done it she would have still gotten the gold. Asking someone to vault on a broken leg with no change to the expected payoff isn't courageous, it's toxic. I think it's ok to reevaluate what coaches asked an 18 year old to do and why they asked her to do it. If that was my daughter, I would be pissed.
2. Simone Biles can quit for her mental health. I have zero problems with that except...
3. You quit before you get to the Olympics. The second you sign up and take the spot, money, is the second you commit to being a competitor. Nobody forced her to do that. Quitting literally during the finals is peak selfishness. I have zero sympathy for someone that commits to something that high stakes and pulls out when faced with adversity.
Tl;dr - Rethinking the toxic culture of what Kerri did does not make what Biles did ok.
StandUpforAmerica said:
It's called the pussification of America.
1) Lol snopesHorn_in_Aggieland said:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/kerri-strug-usa-gold/
According to this it was not known at the time if the USA would have won gold without Strug's vault.
My Name Is Judge said:
Proud to know my children are gonna dominate all these pathetic liberal betas infesting this country