[Disturbing] Another example of police not being prepared for a lethal suspect

31,206 Views | 154 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by PrincessButtercup
atmtws
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?
If they fight with me? Yes. I never cited anyone for jay walking by the way.

I was a fed for most of my time so it was felonies. But this growing wave of resisting the police needs to be snuffed out. You fight in court. Period.
That's interesting to me. So if the jay walker ignored your commands and kept walking maybe even runs away they are at risk of dying for not being compliant?
Do doctors not read anymore? I said fight. We can try some synonyms: resist, combat, grapple.
From what I've seen over the last few months, they are some of the stupidest smart people ever. They tried warranting all their extra "training" for pandemics by making a covid a "pandemic" worthy of shutting down our economy....now multiple doctors and nurses I know who supported this are unemployed.
The_Fox
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Pelayo said:

The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?
If they fight with me? Yes. I never cited anyone for jay walking by the way.

I was a fed for most of my time so it was felonies. But this growing wave of resisting the police needs to be snuffed out. You fight in court. Period.
That's interesting to me. So if the jay walker ignored your commands and kept walking maybe even runs away they are at risk of dying for not being compliant?
Do doctors not read anymore? I said fight. We can try some synonyms: resist, combat, grapple.
Do cops and prosecutors answer direct questions?
I would go back to the pre Tennessee v. Garner standard and allow cops to shoot fleeing suspects only for felonies. I would however allow cops to send someone to the hospital for fleeing any other time.

That is not the law, but rather my opinion on how flight should be and used to be handled.

Physical resistance against LEOs should always be met with severe repercussions including up to deadly force.

Turn around, put your hands behind your back, save your arguments for the courtroom. The only caveat to that is if the justice system is so corrupted that you cannot seek redress through the courts.
MPD280
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Pelayo said:

Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?


"Comply or die" is obviously not the approach these officers took, and is not an attitude most officers today have. These officers from Tulsa most certainly didn't, they begged the shooter to acquiesce and that obviously didn't work.
Pelayo
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?
If they fight with me? Yes. I never cited anyone for jay walking by the way.

I was a fed for most of my time so it was felonies. But this growing wave of resisting the police needs to be snuffed out. You fight in court. Period.
That's interesting to me. So if the jay walker ignored your commands and kept walking maybe even runs away they are at risk of dying for not being compliant?
Do doctors not read anymore? I said fight. We can try some synonyms: resist, combat, grapple.
Do cops and prosecutors answer direct questions?
I would go back to the pre Tennessee v. Garner standard and allow cops to shoot fleeing suspects only for felonies. I would however allow cops to send someone to the hospital for fleeing any other time.

That is not the law, but rather my opinion on how flight should be and used to be handled.

Physical resistance against LEOs should always be met with severe repercussions including up to deadly force.

Turn around, put your hands behind your back, save your arguments for the courtroom. The only caveat to that is if the justice system is so corrupted that you cannot seek redress through the courts.
Thanks for your answer. My point, and the article I linked, is simply that there are instances where escalation to lethal force is not merited. I teach my sons to be completely respectful and submit to authority, it doesn't mean I agree that comply or die should always apply.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
ehrmantraut
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
That's bull****
AGS-R-TUFF
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
It does not matter whether you stole a pack of cigarettes or robbed a bank. As soon as you physically resist arrest, you have escalated the situation into a potentially violent crime.

Pelayo
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
MPD280 said:

Pelayo said:

Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?


"Comply or die" is obviously not the approach these officers took, and is not an attitude most officers today have. These officers from Tulsa most certainly didn't, they begged the shooter to acquiesce and that obviously didn't work.
It's dangerous work, no doubt.

I wouldn't use this example though to say comply or die should always be the case as seems to be suggested.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
JobSecurity
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
The only person causing the escalation is the person resisting arrest. Escalate your resistance and get an appropriate response. It doesn't matter what the original crime was if you wind up beating an officer in your attempt to resist or escape
law-apt-3g
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Not sure what happened, looks like POV view officer got decked and dropped his gun or maybe perp got other officer's gun and shot POV officer.

Like trying to extricate a bull from car.

The restraint due to fear of repercussions killed the officers.
MPD280
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I agree, and I don't endorse that statement, but there comes a point when the reliance on platitudes and tools like OC spray are not a valid option. The current social climate makes LEOs hesitant to take the action necessary to obtain compliance. Jaywalkers and traffic stops at 3am are not comparable and should not be treated as if they are.
The_Fox
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Pelayo said:

MPD280 said:

Pelayo said:

Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?


"Comply or die" is obviously not the approach these officers took, and is not an attitude most officers today have. These officers from Tulsa most certainly didn't, they begged the shooter to acquiesce and that obviously didn't work.
It's dangerous work, no doubt.

I wouldn't use this example though to say comply or die should always be the case as seems to be suggested.
I would have politely asked him to exit his car. If to no avail, I would then have yelled at him to get the F out of the car.

Next, I would have tried once to pull him out and if unsuccessful my partner and I would have then engaged in a Rodney King style beat down of the suspect with our PR-24s. After in custody, he would have been OC sprayed and left in the back of my Caprice with the heat on full blast for at least 30 minutes.

Those lessons usually only have to be give one time.
RGRAg1/75
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
JB99 said:

In hindsight what could they have done different? The damn tasers are worthless. Only thing I can think off is to sick a dog on the guy while holding him at gunpoint. He pulled that gun out of nowhere quick.

First of all, you don't tase him through the window from the opposite side of the vehicle as your partner. They were in a bad position from the get go. Arm chair QBing, but you asked.

Someone else mentioned the resistance piece and that's my biggest problem with all of the recent bull***** Everyone has been conditioned and even encouraged to resist immediately. You should even fight (see cops in NY getting curb stomped during recent interactions)! And video it. Then celebrate with "**** 12" and "acab" chants.

I'm on board with the K9 thing, but there just aren't enough K9s to enable department wide use for all interactions, including your daily traffic stops. There should be no more solo riding, but that's like the K9 thing, resources are finite.

Man, this was just awful to see. Got my blood pressure up. I would have cracked this dudes head with the asp after he started fighting the taze. Better to be tried by 12 than carries by 6 as they say.....horrible place to be.
New World Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
What a f'n POS. Total loser, now a murderer.
Infection_Ag11
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

MPD280 said:

Pelayo said:

Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?


"Comply or die" is obviously not the approach these officers took, and is not an attitude most officers today have. These officers from Tulsa most certainly didn't, they begged the shooter to acquiesce and that obviously didn't work.
It's dangerous work, no doubt.

I wouldn't use this example though to say comply or die should always be the case as seems to be suggested.
I would have politely asked him to exit his car. If to no avail, I would then have yelled at him to get the F out of the car.

Next, I would have tried once to pull him out and if unsuccessful my partner and I would have then engaged in a Rodney King style beat down of the suspect with our PR-24s. After in custody, he would have been OC sprayed and left in the back of my Caprice with the heat on full blast for at least 30 minutes.

Those lessons usually only have to be give one time.


Seems to me the potential legal repercussions for you just wouldn't be worth it, even if the guy deserved it.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Picard
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
JB99 said:

In hindsight what could they have done different?


They can pull out a baton and bash his head in. But nooooo...that's brutality!
MPD280
How long do you want to ignore this user?
And those thoughts crossed their minds, to their detriment.
The_Fox
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Infection_Ag11 said:

The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

MPD280 said:

Pelayo said:

Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?


"Comply or die" is obviously not the approach these officers took, and is not an attitude most officers today have. These officers from Tulsa most certainly didn't, they begged the shooter to acquiesce and that obviously didn't work.
It's dangerous work, no doubt.

I wouldn't use this example though to say comply or die should always be the case as seems to be suggested.
I would have politely asked him to exit his car. If to no avail, I would then have yelled at him to get the F out of the car.

Next, I would have tried once to pull him out and if unsuccessful my partner and I would have then engaged in a Rodney King style beat down of the suspect with our PR-24s. After in custody, he would have been OC sprayed and left in the back of my Caprice with the heat on full blast for at least 30 minutes.

Those lessons usually only have to be give one time.


Seems to me the potential legal repercussions for you just wouldn't be worth it, even if the guy deserved it.
That is not a hypo, I have done that very thing while on patrol in the 1990s. I have still not been shot by a suspect.
bcasey03
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
The_Fox said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

MPD280 said:

Pelayo said:

Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?


"Comply or die" is obviously not the approach these officers took, and is not an attitude most officers today have. These officers from Tulsa most certainly didn't, they begged the shooter to acquiesce and that obviously didn't work.
It's dangerous work, no doubt.

I wouldn't use this example though to say comply or die should always be the case as seems to be suggested.
I would have politely asked him to exit his car. If to no avail, I would then have yelled at him to get the F out of the car.

Next, I would have tried once to pull him out and if unsuccessful my partner and I would have then engaged in a Rodney King style beat down of the suspect with our PR-24s. After in custody, he would have been OC sprayed and left in the back of my Caprice with the heat on full blast for at least 30 minutes.

Those lessons usually only have to be give one time.


Seems to me the potential legal repercussions for you just wouldn't be worth it, even if the guy deserved it.
That is not a hypo, I have done that very thing while on patrol in the 1990s. I have still not been shot by a suspect.


Thanks for your service.
MPD280
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Thank you for your service. The police obtain their authority with the consent of the public, and a vocal segment of the public have withdrawn their consent. It leaves good police in a difficult position where they must constantly gauge their response to resistance to the potential public outcry. A good bit of that is a direct result of bad cops doing bad things, and society has not yet found its center.
New World Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
https://www.news9.com/story/5f5f468ca6b57d2d4d62a8b7/body-cam-video-to-be-released-in-case-of-suspect-accused-of-shooting-tulsa-officers


He had his gun under his driver seat.
Rattler12
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Easy solution. Cops need to carry tranq guns. Just dart the phooker and wait till he's out....
Pelayo
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
MPD280 said:

I agree, and I don't endorse that statement, but there comes a point when the reliance on platitudes and tools like OC spray are not a valid option. The current social climate makes LEOs hesitant to take the action necessary to obtain compliance. Jaywalkers and traffic stops at 3am are not comparable and should not be treated as if they are.
Where did I suggest they were the exact same? I was questioning how reaching the 'comply or die' policy for Fox.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
UTExan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Infection_Ag11 said:

JB99 said:

In hindsight what could they have done different?


Wait for more officers and not try to remove a fairly stout individual from the car by themselves, especially given the petty nature of the events that led to them being there in the first place.

They put themselves in what I perceive as unnecessary danger.


That nerve that runs right under the nasal cartilage. One officer climbs in the passenger side, cuts the seat belt if necessary and turns off ignition, pushes outward. Second officer on Driver side does distraction brachial strike on front of driver shoulder and pulls outward on driver. Pain compliance techniques have been taught for decades. The problem is that some combination of legal and medical advisors manage to repeal every effective police close combat non lethal tactic as the criminal class begins to assert its victimhood.
“... the reason life works at all is that not everyone in your tribe is nuts on the same day.
Anne Lamott
Rendered Fat
How long do you want to ignore this user?
The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

MPD280 said:

Pelayo said:

Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?


"Comply or die" is obviously not the approach these officers took, and is not an attitude most officers today have. These officers from Tulsa most certainly didn't, they begged the shooter to acquiesce and that obviously didn't work.
It's dangerous work, no doubt.

I wouldn't use this example though to say comply or die should always be the case as seems to be suggested.
I would have politely asked him to exit his car. If to no avail, I would then have yelled at him to get the F out of the car.

Next, I would have tried once to pull him out and if unsuccessful my partner and I would have then engaged in a Rodney King style beat down of the suspect with our PR-24s. After in custody, he would have been OC sprayed and left in the back of my Caprice with the heat on full blast for at least 30 minutes.

Those lessons usually only have to be give one time.


Thank you for your service. Out of curiosity, what does turning on the heater do? Just make the spray burn worse?
aggiehawg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Rattler12 said:

Easy solution. Cops need to carry tranq guns. Just dart the phooker and wait till he's out....
Courts are still weighing whether lethal injection is cruel and inhumane punishment. Set the tranq gun for elephant? Or midget?
MPD280
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Fair enough.
I was simply interjecting my opinion, and participating in the conversation. It's a message board.
beanbean
How long do you want to ignore this user?
My wife went to high school with Craig Johnson (Tulsa Union 1994) and they ran with the same group of friends. She was pretty shook up about it when he got killed. No way would I show her this footage.
TamuKid
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Well that made me pretty damn angry
Little Rock Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
If they had only sent a social worker, things would've been just fine.
Dan Scott
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
That pissed me off. I wish they would have clubbed that POS in the head and knocked him out. I wouldnt protest.
thirdcoast
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Did he draw his own gun or steal from cop? SIAP
Fishin Texas Aggie 05
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
It gives them a chance to think about what they've done or at least be miserable for 30 minutes so they won't do it again
XXXVII
How long do you want to ignore this user?
That video really pissed me off.
BLM = Black Loser Marxists
sanaug
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Seems a safe means of reliably incapacitating a person is needed. Would think that could be a business opportunity.
Ag with kids
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Infection_Ag11 said:

Shooter needs to get the needle, but in hindsight the officers would have been better served holding back and waiting for more help. He clearly wasn't going anywhere, and even if they hadn't been shot all of that wasn't worth it over such a petty offense.
The Sgt that showed up WAS the "more help".

It was, at first appearance, a simple stop. How much backup do you think they should wait on before they get 1 guy out of a car?

And are you saying that if people break the law and then vehemently protest then if it's not a big offense the police should just ignore it?
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.