[Disturbing] Another example of police not being prepared for a lethal suspect

31,185 Views | 154 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by PrincessButtercup
InfantryAg
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ABATTBQ11 said:


I'm not saying all police are bad, but they aggregately advocate for and perpetuate a system of unaccountability. Cops can't demand Byzantine rules for investigation, discipline, and termination and then complain when people lose faith in them because those Byzantine rules they wanted continually keep ****ty cops on the street. They need to take some level of responsibility for the systems they helped institute and the environments they have created, but I don't think we'll be seeing cops or unions advocating for fewer protections or less favorable investigative or disciplinary procedures anytime soon.
This ^ is applicable for any industry.

The cops I have worked with have many positive contacts on a daily basis. In the hundreds of officers I have worked with I have seen no coverups and a few disciplinary actions. Our union has turned down fighting for a few because the officer was in the wrong. I know of one case that was questionable and is still being hashed out in the courts. There are probably guys who would cover for their close friends to a degree, but there are many more who would turn in another officer for wrongdoing. The culture is that no one is going to risk going to prison or losing their career to cover for a violation of the law. Police violation maybe, if you're real tight.

Outside of my agency I have trained with many state and local cops and it seems about the same. Back in the day, it was a different story, and probably still so in places, but it's the exception, not the rule.

Doctors have way more malpractice than police. I would guess engineering malpractice is much higher also.
Infection_Ag11
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Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

The_Fox said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Shooter needs to get the needle, but in hindsight the officers would have been better served holding back and waiting for more help. He clearly wasn't going anywhere, and even if they hadn't been shot all of that wasn't worth it over such a petty offense.
The Sgt that showed up WAS the "more help".

It was, at first appearance, a simple stop. How much backup do you think they should wait on before they get 1 guy out of a car?

And are you saying that if people break the law and then vehemently protest then if it's not a big offense the police should just ignore it?


I'm not saying they should ignore it at all.
The correct answer is when people are crying that the police murdered Lil Wayne, check out the video and if you see Lil Wayne run or fight with the police click stop, and tell those crying to just STFU.

If you see Lil Wayne crawling down the hallway, unarmed, and get executed by an officer with an AR, continue watching until the end and protest if you are so inclined.

This is not complicated.


I have no sympathy for the shooter here, or anyone who picks a fight with a uniformed officer. My concern here is for the safety of the police and how they could have avoided what ultimately happened here.

The two of them alone getting that guy out of the car right then over an illegal left turn and driving with expired tags just wasn't worth it. It's extremely hard for two people to safely restrain a full grown man who is determined to not go along with it.
What should they have done, then?


Ask for more help.

I bet if you could ask the cop who survived what he wishes he would have don't his answer wouldn't be "exactly what I did".
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
UTExan
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InfantryAg said:

ABATTBQ11 said:


I'm not saying all police are bad, but they aggregately advocate for and perpetuate a system of unaccountability. Cops can't demand Byzantine rules for investigation, discipline, and termination and then complain when people lose faith in them because those Byzantine rules they wanted continually keep ****ty cops on the street. They need to take some level of responsibility for the systems they helped institute and the environments they have created, but I don't think we'll be seeing cops or unions advocating for fewer protections or less favorable investigative or disciplinary procedures anytime soon.
This ^ is applicable for any industry.

The cops I have worked with have many positive contacts on a daily basis. In the hundreds of officers I have worked with I have seen no coverups and a few disciplinary actions. Our union has turned down fighting for a few because the officer was in the wrong. I know of one case that was questionable and is still being hashed out in the courts. There are probably guys who would cover for their close friends to a degree, but there are many more who would turn in another officer for wrongdoing. The culture is that no one is going to risk going to prison or losing their career to cover for a violation of the law. Police violation maybe, if you're real tight.

Outside of my agency I have trained with many state and local cops and it seems about the same. Back in the day, it was a different story, and probably still so in places, but it's the exception, not the rule.

Doctors have way more malpractice than police. I would guess engineering malpractice is much higher also.


This x 1000.

That is why White Coats for Black Lives is such a joke.
“... the reason life works at all is that not everyone in your tribe is nuts on the same day.
Anne Lamott
Ag with kids
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Infection_Ag11 said:

Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

The_Fox said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Shooter needs to get the needle, but in hindsight the officers would have been better served holding back and waiting for more help. He clearly wasn't going anywhere, and even if they hadn't been shot all of that wasn't worth it over such a petty offense.
The Sgt that showed up WAS the "more help".

It was, at first appearance, a simple stop. How much backup do you think they should wait on before they get 1 guy out of a car?

And are you saying that if people break the law and then vehemently protest then if it's not a big offense the police should just ignore it?


I'm not saying they should ignore it at all.
The correct answer is when people are crying that the police murdered Lil Wayne, check out the video and if you see Lil Wayne run or fight with the police click stop, and tell those crying to just STFU.

If you see Lil Wayne crawling down the hallway, unarmed, and get executed by an officer with an AR, continue watching until the end and protest if you are so inclined.

This is not complicated.


I have no sympathy for the shooter here, or anyone who picks a fight with a uniformed officer. My concern here is for the safety of the police and how they could have avoided what ultimately happened here.

The two of them alone getting that guy out of the car right then over an illegal left turn and driving with expired tags just wasn't worth it. It's extremely hard for two people to safely restrain a full grown man who is determined to not go along with it.
What should they have done, then?


Ask for more help.

I bet if you could ask the cop who survived what he wishes he would have don't his answer wouldn't be "exactly what I did".
At what point during the encounter should they have asked for more help?
Infection_Ag11
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Old Tom Morris said:

Exactly. The Monday Morning QB's have zero appreciation for how fast these go bad. This is exactly the scenario the Jacob Blake cop was expecting when he fired.

And if a suspect is going to fight a cop, the cop has to assume that fight could be to the death.


The point at which he was struggling with them and clearly reaching for something in the is the point which I would not take issue with them shooting him. Someone that determined to not go with the cops, and who is actively trying to get something out of their car, is clearly a threat to their lives.

My point is I think it could have been avoided altogether. Again, they didn't even notice he had a gun until after he started shooting. If you are struggling so much to control someone that you don't notice the gun in their hand, you needed more help. Even an extra officer monitoring as the other two removed him could have prevented this. Someone not using all their strength to subdue him needs to be watching for this. There was a good 5 seconds between when he has the gun and it's visible to when he starts firing, an officer with a free set of eyes and hands could have put him down as soon as he stands up with it in his hand.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Infection_Ag11
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Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

The_Fox said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Shooter needs to get the needle, but in hindsight the officers would have been better served holding back and waiting for more help. He clearly wasn't going anywhere, and even if they hadn't been shot all of that wasn't worth it over such a petty offense.
The Sgt that showed up WAS the "more help".

It was, at first appearance, a simple stop. How much backup do you think they should wait on before they get 1 guy out of a car?

And are you saying that if people break the law and then vehemently protest then if it's not a big offense the police should just ignore it?


I'm not saying they should ignore it at all.
The correct answer is when people are crying that the police murdered Lil Wayne, check out the video and if you see Lil Wayne run or fight with the police click stop, and tell those crying to just STFU.

If you see Lil Wayne crawling down the hallway, unarmed, and get executed by an officer with an AR, continue watching until the end and protest if you are so inclined.

This is not complicated.


I have no sympathy for the shooter here, or anyone who picks a fight with a uniformed officer. My concern here is for the safety of the police and how they could have avoided what ultimately happened here.

The two of them alone getting that guy out of the car right then over an illegal left turn and driving with expired tags just wasn't worth it. It's extremely hard for two people to safely restrain a full grown man who is determined to not go along with it.
What should they have done, then?


Ask for more help.

I bet if you could ask the cop who survived what he wishes he would have don't his answer wouldn't be "exactly what I did".
At what point during the encounter should they have asked for more help?


The point at which a sizable adult male was refusing to get out of a car in the middle of the night with poor visualization of the contents of the vehicle, acting suspicious and refusing the clearly present his hands in a consistent manner.

You know it's going to take at least two people to get him out, you need someone not struggling with him to be present. There are dozens of body cam vids online that show a police struggle where an uninvolved officer is the one who has to put the perpetrator down with a taser or gunfire. You don't want to struggle for life and death to come down to your ability to kill them first while actively fighting them.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Pinche Abogado
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How much "help" is sufficient in this type of situation?
Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God.
Infection_Ag11
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Pinche Abogado said:

How much "help" is sufficient in this type of situation?


Like I said, those two cops would both be alive if just one extra officer with a free hand was monitoring him as they removed him from the car. There was a sizable period of time (relatively speaking) between when the gun becomes visible and when he starts shooting. The second he whipped his hand out from under the seat and was stood up he needed to be shot, and neither cop could because they were actively struggling with him and even if they could have drawn they didn't notice the gun.
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Pinche Abogado
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But how much? You clearly have some opinion since you stated "more" was needed.
Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God.
Infection_Ag11
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Pinche Abogado said:

But how much? You clearly have some opinion since you stated "more" was needed.


Well one more would make three so....three
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ABATTBQ11
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InfantryAg said:

ABATTBQ11 said:


I'm not saying all police are bad, but they aggregately advocate for and perpetuate a system of unaccountability. Cops can't demand Byzantine rules for investigation, discipline, and termination and then complain when people lose faith in them because those Byzantine rules they wanted continually keep ****ty cops on the street. They need to take some level of responsibility for the systems they helped institute and the environments they have created, but I don't think we'll be seeing cops or unions advocating for fewer protections or less favorable investigative or disciplinary procedures anytime soon.
This ^ is applicable for any industry.

The cops I have worked with have many positive contacts on a daily basis. In the hundreds of officers I have worked with I have seen no coverups and a few disciplinary actions. Our union has turned down fighting for a few because the officer was in the wrong. I know of one case that was questionable and is still being hashed out in the courts. There are probably guys who would cover for their close friends to a degree, but there are many more who would turn in another officer for wrongdoing. The culture is that no one is going to risk going to prison or losing their career to cover for a violation of the law. Police violation maybe, if you're real tight.

Outside of my agency I have trained with many state and local cops and it seems about the same. Back in the day, it was a different story, and probably still so in places, but it's the exception, not the rule.

Doctors have way more malpractice than police. I would guess engineering malpractice is much higher also.


That's great, but doctors and engineers do not generally have civil servant protections, LEOBR equivalents, and union contracts that stack the deck in their favor at every turn from investigating complaints, to disciplining for substantiated complaints, to appealing disciplinary actions and firings. They also don't investigate themselves, and they're generally held to account by third party review boards made of other professionals and can have their medical license/stamp revoked. They're also personally liable for their malpractice and mistakes, unlike cops who enjoy a virtually insurmountable hurdle in qualified immunity. They also don't have guns and the authority to arrest and detain.

You don't get to say, "But we don't protect each other (anymore)!" and claim you're accountable as a profession when the members of your profession defanged every possible layer of accountability they could. Honesty and integrity amongst individuals is great, but it's meaningless when those individuals turn around and create disciplinary structures with no teeth through union contracts and political pressure. Sure cops might turn each other in for wrongdoing, but they turn each other in to disciplinary systems of their own creation that either aren't willing or aren't capable of actually doing anything to them.

There's no one thing wrong that can be fixed with a silver bullet. It's the many small protections that cops have fought for that add up. It's like leaf litter under a live oak tree. A single leaf isn't going to keep anything from growing, but when the tree sheds its leaves and they stack up and cover the ground, everything beneath is choked out. Each little protection, like what can be included in an investigation, what evidence is provided to officers under investigation, delayed interrogations, limiting what questions can be asked, exclusion of previous complaints or disciplinary actions in investigations and arbitration, how arbiters are picked, what can be reviewed by arbiters, how appeals are handled, etc. is like a leaf, and individually they're all fine, but when you take them together, they spread out, stack up, and choke out accountability in the entire profession. Not every department has every one of these or even has them to the same degree, but enough departments have enough of them to stifle accountability across the board to the point it is non-existent. Each one of those things is something officers fought for, and now they don't want to accept responsibility for the totality of what they have created.
Infection_Ag11
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InfantryAg said:

ABATTBQ11 said:


I'm not saying all police are bad, but they aggregately advocate for and perpetuate a system of unaccountability. Cops can't demand Byzantine rules for investigation, discipline, and termination and then complain when people lose faith in them because those Byzantine rules they wanted continually keep ****ty cops on the street. They need to take some level of responsibility for the systems they helped institute and the environments they have created, but I don't think we'll be seeing cops or unions advocating for fewer protections or less favorable investigative or disciplinary procedures anytime soon.
This ^ is applicable for any industry.

The cops I have worked with have many positive contacts on a daily basis. In the hundreds of officers I have worked with I have seen no coverups and a few disciplinary actions. Our union has turned down fighting for a few because the officer was in the wrong. I know of one case that was questionable and is still being hashed out in the courts. There are probably guys who would cover for their close friends to a degree, but there are many more who would turn in another officer for wrongdoing. The culture is that no one is going to risk going to prison or losing their career to cover for a violation of the law. Police violation maybe, if you're real tight.

Outside of my agency I have trained with many state and local cops and it seems about the same. Back in the day, it was a different story, and probably still so in places, but it's the exception, not the rule.

Doctors have way more malpractice than police. I would guess engineering malpractice is much higher also.


Yeah I find it hard to believe the majority of cops are willing to risk their careers for any random dumbass in their precinct just because they do the same job.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Ag with kids
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Infection_Ag11 said:

Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

The_Fox said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Shooter needs to get the needle, but in hindsight the officers would have been better served holding back and waiting for more help. He clearly wasn't going anywhere, and even if they hadn't been shot all of that wasn't worth it over such a petty offense.
The Sgt that showed up WAS the "more help".

It was, at first appearance, a simple stop. How much backup do you think they should wait on before they get 1 guy out of a car?

And are you saying that if people break the law and then vehemently protest then if it's not a big offense the police should just ignore it?


I'm not saying they should ignore it at all.
The correct answer is when people are crying that the police murdered Lil Wayne, check out the video and if you see Lil Wayne run or fight with the police click stop, and tell those crying to just STFU.

If you see Lil Wayne crawling down the hallway, unarmed, and get executed by an officer with an AR, continue watching until the end and protest if you are so inclined.

This is not complicated.


I have no sympathy for the shooter here, or anyone who picks a fight with a uniformed officer. My concern here is for the safety of the police and how they could have avoided what ultimately happened here.

The two of them alone getting that guy out of the car right then over an illegal left turn and driving with expired tags just wasn't worth it. It's extremely hard for two people to safely restrain a full grown man who is determined to not go along with it.
What should they have done, then?


Ask for more help.

I bet if you could ask the cop who survived what he wishes he would have don't his answer wouldn't be "exactly what I did".
At what point during the encounter should they have asked for more help?


The point at which a sizable adult male was refusing to get out of a car in the middle of the night with poor visualization of the contents of the vehicle, acting suspicious and refusing the clearly present his hands in a consistent manner.

You know it's going to take at least two people to get him out, you need someone not struggling with him to be present. There are dozens of body cam vids online that show a police struggle where an uninvolved officer is the one who has to put the perpetrator down with a taser or gunfire. You don't want to struggle for life and death to come down to your ability to kill them first while actively fighting them.
He refused to get out for the first officer. So the Sgt was called. He refused the Sgt and the first officer, then. If they called another unit, he would have refused that officer, too, especially after seeing that refusing to get out of the car didn't result in any negative consequences. So, you'd have your 3 police officers there with the ******* refusing to get out of the car. What then?
Infection_Ag11
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Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

The_Fox said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Shooter needs to get the needle, but in hindsight the officers would have been better served holding back and waiting for more help. He clearly wasn't going anywhere, and even if they hadn't been shot all of that wasn't worth it over such a petty offense.
The Sgt that showed up WAS the "more help".

It was, at first appearance, a simple stop. How much backup do you think they should wait on before they get 1 guy out of a car?

And are you saying that if people break the law and then vehemently protest then if it's not a big offense the police should just ignore it?


I'm not saying they should ignore it at all.
The correct answer is when people are crying that the police murdered Lil Wayne, check out the video and if you see Lil Wayne run or fight with the police click stop, and tell those crying to just STFU.

If you see Lil Wayne crawling down the hallway, unarmed, and get executed by an officer with an AR, continue watching until the end and protest if you are so inclined.

This is not complicated.


I have no sympathy for the shooter here, or anyone who picks a fight with a uniformed officer. My concern here is for the safety of the police and how they could have avoided what ultimately happened here.

The two of them alone getting that guy out of the car right then over an illegal left turn and driving with expired tags just wasn't worth it. It's extremely hard for two people to safely restrain a full grown man who is determined to not go along with it.
What should they have done, then?


Ask for more help.

I bet if you could ask the cop who survived what he wishes he would have don't his answer wouldn't be "exactly what I did".
At what point during the encounter should they have asked for more help?


The point at which a sizable adult male was refusing to get out of a car in the middle of the night with poor visualization of the contents of the vehicle, acting suspicious and refusing the clearly present his hands in a consistent manner.

You know it's going to take at least two people to get him out, you need someone not struggling with him to be present. There are dozens of body cam vids online that show a police struggle where an uninvolved officer is the one who has to put the perpetrator down with a taser or gunfire. You don't want to struggle for life and death to come down to your ability to kill them first while actively fighting them.
He refused to get out for the first officer. So the Sgt was called. He refused the Sgt and the first officer, then. If they called another unit, he would have refused that officer, too, especially after seeing that refusing to get out of the car didn't result in any negative consequences. So, you'd have your 3 police officers there with the ******* refusing to get out of the car. What then?


The same scenario goes down, except this time the only person who ends up dead is the criminal with the gun.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
PrincessButtercup
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https://www.theblaze.com/news/ready-video-released-showing-suspect-shooting-two-tulsa-officers-killing-one-during-routine-traffic-stop

Quote:

TheBlaze viewed the video, which was posted by TexAgs. It is graphic and extremely "disturbing," as the site describes. The footage shows the suspect refusing officers' repeated commands and arguing with them.

Meant to include this:

I first saw the story here, and couldn't find anyone else posting about it. So I screen-recorded It, and the video has been viewed more than 1.5 mil times, giving a lot of exposure to what our cops are going through right now. So, thanks y'all.
 
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