[Disturbing] Another example of police not being prepared for a lethal suspect

31,173 Views | 154 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by PrincessButtercup
Red Fishing Ag93
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Dammit that sucks.
Boo Weekley
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Nvmd
AgRN16
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Pelayo said:

The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?
If they fight with me? Yes. I never cited anyone for jay walking by the way.

I was a fed for most of my time so it was felonies. But this growing wave of resisting the police needs to be snuffed out. You fight in court. Period.
That's interesting to me. So if the jay walker ignored your commands and kept walking maybe even runs away they are at risk of dying for not being compliant?
Do doctors not read anymore? I said fight. We can try some synonyms: resist, combat, grapple.
Do cops and prosecutors answer direct questions?


He just did, despite the fact that it was an ignorant/superfluous question. Reading comprehension.
MouthBQ98
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Keep in mind calling in other officers takes them away from what they are doing which may be important at the time also. Most of the time it isn't necessary.

Once the guy fails to comply repeatedly or gets into contention with the officers he is racking up other criminal offenses that are more serious.

We empower officers as agents of the people to carry out Enforcement of our laws. They represent us, and our government and our law. When individuals defy them or escalate violence with them them, they are contesting the will of society to keep law and order. If the police are in error, we have an entire justice system dedicated to correcting that problem.
New World Ag
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thirdcoast said:

Did he draw his own gun or steal from cop? SIAP
It was under his seat, looks like he got loose enough the fish it out with his right hand.

I'm still shook up after watching that last night. Officer Johnson's screams are bad enough, then you hear him go silent after that POS fires the final head shot.
Infection_Ag11
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Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Shooter needs to get the needle, but in hindsight the officers would have been better served holding back and waiting for more help. He clearly wasn't going anywhere, and even if they hadn't been shot all of that wasn't worth it over such a petty offense.
The Sgt that showed up WAS the "more help".

It was, at first appearance, a simple stop. How much backup do you think they should wait on before they get 1 guy out of a car?

And are you saying that if people break the law and then vehemently protest then if it's not a big offense the police should just ignore it?


I'm not saying they should ignore it at all.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
The_Fox
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Infection_Ag11 said:

Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Shooter needs to get the needle, but in hindsight the officers would have been better served holding back and waiting for more help. He clearly wasn't going anywhere, and even if they hadn't been shot all of that wasn't worth it over such a petty offense.
The Sgt that showed up WAS the "more help".

It was, at first appearance, a simple stop. How much backup do you think they should wait on before they get 1 guy out of a car?

And are you saying that if people break the law and then vehemently protest then if it's not a big offense the police should just ignore it?


I'm not saying they should ignore it at all.
The correct answer is when people are crying that the police murdered Lil Wayne, check out the video and if you see Lil Wayne run or fight with the police click stop, and tell those crying to just STFU.

If you see Lil Wayne crawling down the hallway, unarmed, and get executed by an officer with an AR, continue watching until the end and protest if you are so inclined.

This is not complicated.
dBoy99
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Infection_Ag11 said:

Shooter needs to get the needle, but in hindsight the officers would have been better served holding back and waiting for more help. He clearly wasn't going anywhere, and even if they hadn't been shot all of that wasn't worth it over such a petty offense.
I personally have been pulled over at least 15 times for petty offenses. Know how many cops I have shot and killed?

Law abiding citizens don't shoot cops during a traffic stop. Mr. Ware had a record and history of criminal activity, police knew this. He didn't want to go back to jail. This is not the cops' fault.


nevermind....
dBoy99
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New World Ag said:

What a f'n POS. Total loser, now a murderer.



nevermind....
fixer
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holy ***** That is unbelievable.

several times I was waiting/hoping they'd just tonk that guy or put a boot in his face.

absolute horse*****

RandyAg98
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nm
Reginald Cousins
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The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

MPD280 said:

Pelayo said:

Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?


"Comply or die" is obviously not the approach these officers took, and is not an attitude most officers today have. These officers from Tulsa most certainly didn't, they begged the shooter to acquiesce and that obviously didn't work.
It's dangerous work, no doubt.

I wouldn't use this example though to say comply or die should always be the case as seems to be suggested.
I would have politely asked him to exit his car. If to no avail, I would then have yelled at him to get the F out of the car.

Next, I would have tried once to pull him out and if unsuccessful my partner and I would have then engaged in a Rodney King style beat down of the suspect with our PR-24s. After in custody, he would have been OC sprayed and left in the back of my Caprice with the heat on full blast for at least 30 minutes.

Those lessons usually only have to be give one time.
I like you.
nu awlins ag
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zgolfz85 said:

Infuriating that this is the first I've seen of this....all the while I'm told to feel sorry for rapists, lady beaters and pedos. God I hate this year.
.

Because the guy was white. If that was a black dude, it would have hit the MSM within seconds.
dBoy99
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Reginald Cousins said:

The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

MPD280 said:

Pelayo said:

Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?


"Comply or die" is obviously not the approach these officers took, and is not an attitude most officers today have. These officers from Tulsa most certainly didn't, they begged the shooter to acquiesce and that obviously didn't work.
It's dangerous work, no doubt.

I wouldn't use this example though to say comply or die should always be the case as seems to be suggested.
I would have politely asked him to exit his car. If to no avail, I would then have yelled at him to get the F out of the car.

Next, I would have tried once to pull him out and if unsuccessful my partner and I would have then engaged in a Rodney King style beat down of the suspect with our PR-24s. After in custody, he would have been OC sprayed and left in the back of my Caprice with the heat on full blast for at least 30 minutes.

Those lessons usually only have to be give one time.
I like you.
These ****ers need to be taught a lesson. Same goes for the rioters and looters.


nevermind....
HoustonAg2106
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I hope he gets what he deserves every day in prison for the rest of his life...
Rattler12
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aggiehawg said:

Rattler12 said:

Easy solution. Cops need to carry tranq guns. Just dart the phooker and wait till he's out....
Courts are still weighing whether lethal injection is cruel and inhumane punishment. Set the tranq gun for elephant? Or midget?
Midget elephant
beerad12man
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Pelayo said:

The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?
If they fight with me? Yes. I never cited anyone for jay walking by the way.

I was a fed for most of my time so it was felonies. But this growing wave of resisting the police needs to be snuffed out. You fight in court. Period.
That's interesting to me. So if the jay walker ignored your commands and kept walking maybe even runs away they are at risk of dying for not being compliant?
Do doctors not read anymore? I said fight. We can try some synonyms: resist, combat, grapple.
Do cops and prosecutors answer direct questions?
He just freaking did.
Infection_Ag11
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The_Fox said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Shooter needs to get the needle, but in hindsight the officers would have been better served holding back and waiting for more help. He clearly wasn't going anywhere, and even if they hadn't been shot all of that wasn't worth it over such a petty offense.
The Sgt that showed up WAS the "more help".

It was, at first appearance, a simple stop. How much backup do you think they should wait on before they get 1 guy out of a car?

And are you saying that if people break the law and then vehemently protest then if it's not a big offense the police should just ignore it?


I'm not saying they should ignore it at all.
The correct answer is when people are crying that the police murdered Lil Wayne, check out the video and if you see Lil Wayne run or fight with the police click stop, and tell those crying to just STFU.

If you see Lil Wayne crawling down the hallway, unarmed, and get executed by an officer with an AR, continue watching until the end and protest if you are so inclined.

This is not complicated.


I have no sympathy for the shooter here, or anyone who picks a fight with a uniformed officer. My concern here is for the safety of the police and how they could have avoided what ultimately happened here.

The two of them alone getting that guy out of the car right then over an illegal left turn and driving with expired tags just wasn't worth it. It's extremely hard for two people to safely restrain a full grown man who is determined to not go along with it.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Pinche Abogado
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Infection_Ag11 said:

The_Fox said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Shooter needs to get the needle, but in hindsight the officers would have been better served holding back and waiting for more help. He clearly wasn't going anywhere, and even if they hadn't been shot all of that wasn't worth it over such a petty offense.
The Sgt that showed up WAS the "more help".

It was, at first appearance, a simple stop. How much backup do you think they should wait on before they get 1 guy out of a car?

And are you saying that if people break the law and then vehemently protest then if it's not a big offense the police should just ignore it?


I'm not saying they should ignore it at all.
The correct answer is when people are crying that the police murdered Lil Wayne, check out the video and if you see Lil Wayne run or fight with the police click stop, and tell those crying to just STFU.

If you see Lil Wayne crawling down the hallway, unarmed, and get executed by an officer with an AR, continue watching until the end and protest if you are so inclined.

This is not complicated.


I have no sympathy for the shooter here, or anyone who picks a fight with a uniformed officer. My concern here is for the safety of the police and how they could have avoided what ultimately happened here.

The two of them alone getting that guy out of the car right then over an illegal left turn and driving with expired tags just wasn't worth it. It's extremely hard for two people to safely restrain a full grown man who is determined to not go along with it.
Person with a known criminal history refusing police commands. This is not complicated.
Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God.
The_Fox
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Infection_Ag11 said:

The_Fox said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Shooter needs to get the needle, but in hindsight the officers would have been better served holding back and waiting for more help. He clearly wasn't going anywhere, and even if they hadn't been shot all of that wasn't worth it over such a petty offense.
The Sgt that showed up WAS the "more help".

It was, at first appearance, a simple stop. How much backup do you think they should wait on before they get 1 guy out of a car?

And are you saying that if people break the law and then vehemently protest then if it's not a big offense the police should just ignore it?


I'm not saying they should ignore it at all.
The correct answer is when people are crying that the police murdered Lil Wayne, check out the video and if you see Lil Wayne run or fight with the police click stop, and tell those crying to just STFU.

If you see Lil Wayne crawling down the hallway, unarmed, and get executed by an officer with an AR, continue watching until the end and protest if you are so inclined.

This is not complicated.


I have no sympathy for the shooter here, or anyone who picks a fight with a uniformed officer. My concern here is for the safety of the police and how they could have avoided what ultimately happened here.

The two of them alone getting that guy out of the car right then over an illegal left turn and driving with expired tags just wasn't worth it. It's extremely hard for two people to safely restrain a full grown man who is determined to not go along with it.
You are not going to send more than a couple of officers for a traffic arrest. They do not have the man power. The solution is when someone resists at all, to hit them with overwhelming force immediately. No more gerbil voodoo. Ask them. Tell them. Make them.



Hard to resist after getting hit across the face with a d-cell mag lite. However, I preferred the long c-cell.

Infection_Ag11
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dBoy99 said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Shooter needs to get the needle, but in hindsight the officers would have been better served holding back and waiting for more help. He clearly wasn't going anywhere, and even if they hadn't been shot all of that wasn't worth it over such a petty offense.
I personally have been pulled over at least 15 times for petty offenses. Know how many cops I have shot and killed?

Law abiding citizens don't shoot cops during a traffic stop. Mr. Ware had a record and history of criminal activity, police knew this. He didn't want to go back to jail. This is not the cops' fault.


I don't understand your response, I never said it was the cops fault or expressed any sympathy for the shooter. I in fact said he should get the death penalty, but nothing the legal system can do to him now will bring that dead officer back. My post was simply a retrospective look at how that could have gone differently to get that cop home instead of on a slab in the morgue.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
dBoy99
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To me it sounds like you are implying that this was a petty offense and instead of getting physical they should... What - let him go? My point is that, it's never a petty offense when you pull over a person with a criminal record because it could go like it went. Their only mistake is they didn't use enough force.


nevermind....
Infection_Ag11
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The_Fox said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

The_Fox said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Shooter needs to get the needle, but in hindsight the officers would have been better served holding back and waiting for more help. He clearly wasn't going anywhere, and even if they hadn't been shot all of that wasn't worth it over such a petty offense.
The Sgt that showed up WAS the "more help".

It was, at first appearance, a simple stop. How much backup do you think they should wait on before they get 1 guy out of a car?

And are you saying that if people break the law and then vehemently protest then if it's not a big offense the police should just ignore it?


I'm not saying they should ignore it at all.
The correct answer is when people are crying that the police murdered Lil Wayne, check out the video and if you see Lil Wayne run or fight with the police click stop, and tell those crying to just STFU.

If you see Lil Wayne crawling down the hallway, unarmed, and get executed by an officer with an AR, continue watching until the end and protest if you are so inclined.

This is not complicated.


I have no sympathy for the shooter here, or anyone who picks a fight with a uniformed officer. My concern here is for the safety of the police and how they could have avoided what ultimately happened here.

The two of them alone getting that guy out of the car right then over an illegal left turn and driving with expired tags just wasn't worth it. It's extremely hard for two people to safely restrain a full grown man who is determined to not go along with it.
You are not going to send more than a couple of officers for a traffic arrest. They do not have the man power. The solution is when someone resists at all, to hit them with overwhelming force immediately. No more gerbil voodoo. Ask them. Tell them. Make them.


But the force at their disposal in the age of universal body cams and the current legal climate is not overwhelming. They can't pistol whip him in the face, take out his knees with a baton, etc. without facing prison time themselves. Tasers are functionally unreliable and often fail to subdue large or intoxicated individuals. Pepper spray isn't going to stop a determined offender.

The only overwhelming force that is reliable and legal is overwhelming manpower.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
rgag12
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Man it's so surreal watching that video knowing that officer is about to live the last moments of his life. The video starts out so calmly and standard-procedure like.

Makes you really appreciate every second of life you got, because one minute you could be in your normal routine, but in the next minute you could be dead.
aTmAg
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Make resisting arrest a 5 year prison sentence. Only those that would resist arrest after that are people who think an additional 5 years is just noise. Those are the dudes you want in jail.
Infection_Ag11
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dBoy99 said:

To me it sounds like you are implying that this was a petty offense and instead of getting physical they should... What - let him go? My point is that, it's never a petty offense when you pull over a person with a criminal record because it could go like it went. Their only mistake is they didn't use enough force.


No, they shouldn't let him go though that would be preferable to a dead officer given the offense in question. I said they should have requested more help because it is very hard for just two people to safely and reliably restrain a full grown man. This is reflected by the fact that they were having so much trouble with him they didn't even notice he had grabbed a gun until he started shooting.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
The_Fox
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Infection_Ag11 said:

The_Fox said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

The_Fox said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Shooter needs to get the needle, but in hindsight the officers would have been better served holding back and waiting for more help. He clearly wasn't going anywhere, and even if they hadn't been shot all of that wasn't worth it over such a petty offense.
The Sgt that showed up WAS the "more help".

It was, at first appearance, a simple stop. How much backup do you think they should wait on before they get 1 guy out of a car?

And are you saying that if people break the law and then vehemently protest then if it's not a big offense the police should just ignore it?


I'm not saying they should ignore it at all.
The correct answer is when people are crying that the police murdered Lil Wayne, check out the video and if you see Lil Wayne run or fight with the police click stop, and tell those crying to just STFU.

If you see Lil Wayne crawling down the hallway, unarmed, and get executed by an officer with an AR, continue watching until the end and protest if you are so inclined.

This is not complicated.


I have no sympathy for the shooter here, or anyone who picks a fight with a uniformed officer. My concern here is for the safety of the police and how they could have avoided what ultimately happened here.

The two of them alone getting that guy out of the car right then over an illegal left turn and driving with expired tags just wasn't worth it. It's extremely hard for two people to safely restrain a full grown man who is determined to not go along with it.
You are not going to send more than a couple of officers for a traffic arrest. They do not have the man power. The solution is when someone resists at all, to hit them with overwhelming force immediately. No more gerbil voodoo. Ask them. Tell them. Make them.


But the force at their disposal in the age of universal body cams and the current legal climate is not overwhelming. They can't pistol whip him in the face, take out his knees with a baton, etc. without facing prison time themselves. Tasers are functionally unreliable and often fail to subdue large or intoxicated individuals. Pepper spray isn't going to stop a determined offender.

The only overwhelming force that is reliable and legal is overwhelming manpower.
Bingo. You have now correctly identified the issue. The pendulum needs to be swung back allowing officers to use the necessary force to handle most situations without have the entire shift begging some dude to comply.

If that means serious ass whoopings and not wearing body cams, so be it.
TxTarpon
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You know....

Well...

From 2017, welcome to the 3rd world-first world BLM pansies:
Quote:

Brazilian Cops Are Killing More People Than Ever.
Brazilian police killed 4,224 people in 2016, 26 percent more than in 2015, according to the 11th Annual Brazilian Yearbook of Public Security. (The numbers were first reported by Globo News.) The number of total homicides, by contrast, rose 3.8 percent.

By comparison, there were roughly 17,000 homicides in the United States in 2016. Police shot and killed at least 963 people, according to The Washington Post's database on police shootings. The U.S. population outnumbers the Brazilian population by about 110 million people.


----------------------------------
"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it."-Ronald Reagan
"Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."-Mark Twain
"Abbott overreached on power and is unwilling to open things up and when his policy if enforced, he says, "Don't enforce it.""-DallasAg94
Spotted Ag
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I have no issue with shooting that POS while he sits in the car. We really need to institute less humane ways of execution. This crap would stop pronto. Once these POS see someone get nailed by a firing squad or hung from a gallows or beheaded they will think twice about being the POS they are.
The_Fox
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This would have solved it immediately.

Shenaniganz
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Krautag81
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They couldn't pull him from the car while he was sitting there with legs outside. PCP?
Infection_Ag11
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The_Fox said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

The_Fox said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

The_Fox said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Shooter needs to get the needle, but in hindsight the officers would have been better served holding back and waiting for more help. He clearly wasn't going anywhere, and even if they hadn't been shot all of that wasn't worth it over such a petty offense.
The Sgt that showed up WAS the "more help".

It was, at first appearance, a simple stop. How much backup do you think they should wait on before they get 1 guy out of a car?

And are you saying that if people break the law and then vehemently protest then if it's not a big offense the police should just ignore it?


I'm not saying they should ignore it at all.
The correct answer is when people are crying that the police murdered Lil Wayne, check out the video and if you see Lil Wayne run or fight with the police click stop, and tell those crying to just STFU.

If you see Lil Wayne crawling down the hallway, unarmed, and get executed by an officer with an AR, continue watching until the end and protest if you are so inclined.

This is not complicated.


I have no sympathy for the shooter here, or anyone who picks a fight with a uniformed officer. My concern here is for the safety of the police and how they could have avoided what ultimately happened here.

The two of them alone getting that guy out of the car right then over an illegal left turn and driving with expired tags just wasn't worth it. It's extremely hard for two people to safely restrain a full grown man who is determined to not go along with it.
You are not going to send more than a couple of officers for a traffic arrest. They do not have the man power. The solution is when someone resists at all, to hit them with overwhelming force immediately. No more gerbil voodoo. Ask them. Tell them. Make them.


But the force at their disposal in the age of universal body cams and the current legal climate is not overwhelming. They can't pistol whip him in the face, take out his knees with a baton, etc. without facing prison time themselves. Tasers are functionally unreliable and often fail to subdue large or intoxicated individuals. Pepper spray isn't going to stop a determined offender.

The only overwhelming force that is reliable and legal is overwhelming manpower.
Bingo. You have now correctly identified the issue. The pendulum needs to be swung back allowing officers to use the necessary force to handle most situations without have the entire shift begging some dude to comply.

If that means serious ass whoopings and not wearing body cams, so be it.


I'd be fine with that, but I don't think it's likely that pendulum will swing back.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Infection_Ag11
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Krautag81 said:

They couldn't pull him from the car while he was sitting there with legs outside. PCP?


It seems unlikely that guy was intoxicated, given how well he handled that firearm.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
The_Fox
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Infection_Ag11 said:

The_Fox said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

The_Fox said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

The_Fox said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Ag with kids said:

Infection_Ag11 said:

Shooter needs to get the needle, but in hindsight the officers would have been better served holding back and waiting for more help. He clearly wasn't going anywhere, and even if they hadn't been shot all of that wasn't worth it over such a petty offense.
The Sgt that showed up WAS the "more help".

It was, at first appearance, a simple stop. How much backup do you think they should wait on before they get 1 guy out of a car?

And are you saying that if people break the law and then vehemently protest then if it's not a big offense the police should just ignore it?


I'm not saying they should ignore it at all.
The correct answer is when people are crying that the police murdered Lil Wayne, check out the video and if you see Lil Wayne run or fight with the police click stop, and tell those crying to just STFU.

If you see Lil Wayne crawling down the hallway, unarmed, and get executed by an officer with an AR, continue watching until the end and protest if you are so inclined.

This is not complicated.


I have no sympathy for the shooter here, or anyone who picks a fight with a uniformed officer. My concern here is for the safety of the police and how they could have avoided what ultimately happened here.

The two of them alone getting that guy out of the car right then over an illegal left turn and driving with expired tags just wasn't worth it. It's extremely hard for two people to safely restrain a full grown man who is determined to not go along with it.
You are not going to send more than a couple of officers for a traffic arrest. They do not have the man power. The solution is when someone resists at all, to hit them with overwhelming force immediately. No more gerbil voodoo. Ask them. Tell them. Make them.


But the force at their disposal in the age of universal body cams and the current legal climate is not overwhelming. They can't pistol whip him in the face, take out his knees with a baton, etc. without facing prison time themselves. Tasers are functionally unreliable and often fail to subdue large or intoxicated individuals. Pepper spray isn't going to stop a determined offender.

The only overwhelming force that is reliable and legal is overwhelming manpower.
Bingo. You have now correctly identified the issue. The pendulum needs to be swung back allowing officers to use the necessary force to handle most situations without have the entire shift begging some dude to comply.

If that means serious ass whoopings and not wearing body cams, so be it.


I'd be fine with that, but I don't think it's likely that pendulum will swing back.
It will. I t is just a matter of how much anarchy occurs before it does.

Police beating criminal asses should not even be on a law abiding citizen's radar. We need to stop worrying about how the sausage is made and just let the police do their jobs in peace.
 
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