Pelayo said:

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The_Fox said:

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Pelayo said:

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The_Fox said:

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Pelayo said:

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Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?

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If they fight with me? Yes. I never cited anyone for jay walking by the way.

I was a fed for most of my time so it was felonies. But this growing wave of resisting the police needs to be snuffed out. You fight in court. Period.

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That's interesting to me. So if the jay walker ignored your commands and kept walking maybe even runs away they are at risk of dying for not being compliant?

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Do doctors not read anymore? I said fight. We can try some synonyms: resist, combat, grapple.

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Do cops and prosecutors answer direct questions?

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I would go back to the pre Tennessee v. Garner standard and allow cops to shoot fleeing suspects only for felonies. I would however allow cops to send someone to the hospital for fleeing any other time.

That is not the law, but rather my opinion on how flight should be and used to be handled.

Physical resistance against LEOs should always be met with severe repercussions including up to deadly force.

Turn around, put your hands behind your back, save your arguments for the courtroom. The only caveat to that is if the justice system is so corrupted that you cannot seek redress through the courts.

Pelayo said:

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Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?

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"Comply or die" is obviously not the approach these officers took, and is not an attitude most officers today have. These officers from Tulsa most certainly didn't, they begged the shooter to acquiesce and that obviously didn't work.

The_Fox said:

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Pelayo said:

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The_Fox said:

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Pelayo said:

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The_Fox said:

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Pelayo said:

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Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?

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If they fight with me? Yes. I never cited anyone for jay walking by the way.

I was a fed for most of my time so it was felonies. But this growing wave of resisting the police needs to be snuffed out. You fight in court. Period.

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That's interesting to me. So if the jay walker ignored your commands and kept walking maybe even runs away they are at risk of dying for not being compliant?

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Do doctors not read anymore? I said fight. We can try some synonyms: resist, combat, grapple.

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Do cops and prosecutors answer direct questions?

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I would go back to the pre Tennessee v. Garner standard and allow cops to shoot fleeing suspects only for felonies. I would however allow cops to send someone to the hospital for fleeing any other time.

That is not the law, but rather my opinion on how flight should be and used to be handled.

Physical resistance against LEOs should always be met with severe repercussions including up to deadly force.

Turn around, put your hands behind your back, save your arguments for the courtroom. The only caveat to that is if the justice system is so corrupted that you cannot seek redress through the courts.

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Thanks for your answer. My point, and the article I linked, is simply that there are instances where escalation to lethal force is not merited. I teach my sons to be completely respectful and submit to authority, it doesn't mean I agree that comply or die should always apply.

That's bull****

MPD280 said:

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Pelayo said:

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Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?

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"Comply or die" is obviously not the approach these officers took, and is not an attitude most officers today have. These officers from Tulsa most certainly didn't, they begged the shooter to acquiesce and that obviously didn't work.

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It's dangerous work, no doubt.

I wouldn't use this example though to say comply or die should always be the case as seems to be suggested.

Not sure what happened, looks like POV view officer got decked and dropped his gun or maybe perp got other officer's gun and shot POV officer.

Like trying to extricate a bull from car.

The restraint due to fear of repercussions killed the officers.

I agree, and I don't endorse that statement, but there comes a point when the reliance on platitudes and tools like OC spray are not a valid option. The current social climate makes LEOs hesitant to take the action necessary to obtain compliance. Jaywalkers and traffic stops at 3am are not comparable and should not be treated as if they are.

Pelayo said:

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MPD280 said:

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Pelayo said:

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Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?

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"Comply or die" is obviously not the approach these officers took, and is not an attitude most officers today have. These officers from Tulsa most certainly didn't, they begged the shooter to acquiesce and that obviously didn't work.

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It's dangerous work, no doubt.

I wouldn't use this example though to say comply or die should always be the case as seems to be suggested.

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I would have politely asked him to exit his car. If to no avail, I would then have yelled at him to get the F out of the car.

Next, I would have tried once to pull him out and if unsuccessful my partner and I would have then engaged in a Rodney King style beat down of the suspect with our PR-24s. After in custody, he would have been OC sprayed and left in the back of my Caprice with the heat on full blast for at least 30 minutes.

Those lessons usually only have to be give one time.

JB99 said:

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In hindsight what could they have done different? The damn tasers are worthless. Only thing I can think off is to sick a dog on the guy while holding him at gunpoint. He pulled that gun out of nowhere quick.

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First of all, you don't tase him through the window from the opposite side of the vehicle as your partner. They were in a bad position from the get go. Arm chair QBing, but you asked.

Someone else mentioned the resistance piece and that's my biggest problem with all of the recent bull***** Everyone has been conditioned and even encouraged to resist immediately. You should even fight (see cops in NY getting curb stomped during recent interactions)! And video it. Then celebrate with "**** 12" and "acab" chants.

I'm on board with the K9 thing, but there just aren't enough K9s to enable department wide use for all interactions, including your daily traffic stops. There should be no more solo riding, but that's like the K9 thing, resources are finite.

Man, this was just awful to see. Got my blood pressure up. I would have cracked this dudes head with the asp after he started fighting the taze. Better to be tried by 12 than carries by 6 as they say.....horrible place to be.

What a f'n POS. Total loser, now a murderer.

The_Fox said:

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Pelayo said:

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MPD280 said:

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Pelayo said:

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Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?

---

"Comply or die" is obviously not the approach these officers took, and is not an attitude most officers today have. These officers from Tulsa most certainly didn't, they begged the shooter to acquiesce and that obviously didn't work.

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It's dangerous work, no doubt.

I wouldn't use this example though to say comply or die should always be the case as seems to be suggested.

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I would have politely asked him to exit his car. If to no avail, I would then have yelled at him to get the F out of the car.

Next, I would have tried once to pull him out and if unsuccessful my partner and I would have then engaged in a Rodney King style beat down of the suspect with our PR-24s. After in custody, he would have been OC sprayed and left in the back of my Caprice with the heat on full blast for at least 30 minutes.

Those lessons usually only have to be give one time.

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Seems to me the potential legal repercussions for you just wouldn't be worth it, even if the guy deserved it.

JB99 said:

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In hindsight what could they have done different?

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They can pull out a baton and bash his head in. But nooooo...that's brutality!

And those thoughts crossed their minds, to their detriment.

Thank you for your service. The police obtain their authority with the consent of the public, and a vocal segment of the public have withdrawn their consent. It leaves good police in a difficult position where they must constantly gauge their response to resistance to the potential public outcry. A good bit of that is a direct result of bad cops doing bad things, and society has not yet found its center.

https://www.news9.com/story/5f5f468ca6b57d2d4d62a8b7/body-cam-video-to-be-released-in-case-of-suspect-accused-of-shooting-tulsa-officers


He had his gun under his driver seat.

MPD280 said:

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I agree, and I don't endorse that statement, but there comes a point when the reliance on platitudes and tools like OC spray are not a valid option. The current social climate makes LEOs hesitant to take the action necessary to obtain compliance. Jaywalkers and traffic stops at 3am are not comparable and should not be treated as if they are.

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Where did I suggest they were the exact same? I was questioning how reaching the 'comply or die' policy for Fox.

Infection_Ag11 said:

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JB99 said:

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In hindsight what could they have done different?

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Wait for more officers and not try to remove a fairly stout individual from the car by themselves, especially given the petty nature of the events that led to them being there in the first place.

They put themselves in what I perceive as unnecessary danger.

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That nerve that runs right under the nasal cartilage. One officer climbs in the passenger side, cuts the seat belt if necessary and turns off ignition, pushes outward. Second officer on Driver side does distraction brachial strike on front of driver shoulder and pulls outward on driver. Pain compliance techniques have been taught for decades. The problem is that some combination of legal and medical advisors manage to repeal every effective police close combat non lethal tactic as the criminal class begins to assert its victimhood.

Rattler12 said:

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Easy solution. Cops need to carry tranq guns. Just dart the phooker and wait till he's out....

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Courts are still weighing whether lethal injection is cruel and inhumane punishment. Set the tranq gun for elephant? Or midget?

Fair enough.
I was simply interjecting my opinion, and participating in the conversation. It's a message board.

My wife went to high school with Craig Johnson (Tulsa Union 1994) and they ran with the same group of friends. She was pretty shook up about it when he got killed. No way would I show her this footage.

Well that made me pretty damn angry

If they had only sent a social worker, things would've been just fine.

That pissed me off. I wish they would have clubbed that POS in the head and knocked him out. I wouldnt protest.

Did he draw his own gun or steal from cop? SIAP

It gives them a chance to think about what they've done or at least be miserable for 30 minutes so they won't do it again

That video really pissed me off.

Seems a safe means of reliably incapacitating a person is needed. Would think that could be a business opportunity.

Infection_Ag11 said:

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Shooter needs to get the needle, but in hindsight the officers would have been better served holding back and waiting for more help. He clearly wasn't going anywhere, and even if they hadn't been shot all of that wasn't worth it over such a petty offense.

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The Sgt that showed up WAS the "more help".

It was, at first appearance, a simple stop. How much backup do you think they should wait on before they get 1 guy out of a car?

And are you saying that if people break the law and then vehemently protest then if it's not a big offense the police should just ignore it?