If you believe anything that comes from China, well then it is clear there is no point in having a logical discussion with you.
It will take a while to find, but a surgeon on this site explained that it is BACTERIA they are mainly protecting from - not viruses. That's like comparing a bowling ball to a BB in the microbe world.MassAggie97 said:Nice re-direct, but you missed the point. The point is not that breathing into an open body during surgery is more/less dangerous than breathing on a complete stranger during a pandemic. The point was made to demonstrate that masks are an effective means of limiting vectors of contagion that are spread via water droplets that come out of your face. It was made to directly refute the implication, made by a previous poster, that masks are not effective against spread of COVID. And it sounds like you agree that's the case!Quote:
Did you ever stop and think wearing a surgical mask while standing over a person cutting them open might be a good idea and is a high risk situation however walking by you at Home Depot Is not a remotely similar situation and may not require the same precautions.
MassAggie97 said:I'm still waiting to hear an actual explanation of how a disease that is transmitted through water droplets flying out of your face when you cough or sneeze is NOT impacted by a barrier over your face when you are coughing and sneezing.Quote:
They've lost all credibility and this goes with the mask thing too. If someone is stupid enough to believe a lie after believing it the previous 9 times then they deserve what they get.
Speaking of stupid.....The whole surgical profession is built around masks being able to stop doctors and nurses from accidentally infecting surgery patients through their breathing, coughing, etc. It's been that way forever, yet now all of a sudden Texags forum 16 and the Trump party have decided that the doctors and nurses have just been wasting their time and money all these years. Think how "stupid" those medical professionals must feel.
They aren't on the freeway. There's no speed limit in someone's parking lot unless they put one there, Einstein.MassAggie97 said:Should we allow people to "choose" their speed on the freeway? We allow TxDOT to choose speeds because they've done research on how to balance safety against expediency. There are plenty of issues where "choice" has been ceded to government agencies with expertise on the issue. This is really no different.Quote:
And should be a choice...you know..freedom to choose...
LOL, China welded people in their apartments. Cuomo and other DemGovs made nursing homes take COVID-positive residents in.MassAggie97 said:How do YOU think it spreads?Quote:
If walking by someone at the grocery store or HD without masks on results in the rampant spread of the disease then we've found our global killer that many have been predicting (except that for the vast majority this is a fairly mild disease).Compare China's case count and number dead to ours. You just proved my point. We're 4% of the world population, but 25% of cases and deaths. Why? We're the only country where a large number of people actually question whether barrier over the face can slow a disease that spreads by mucus and water droplets flying out of your face.Quote:
If masks are so successful at stopping the spread then I cannot believe China would have had any issues at all with CV, they mask up at the drop of a hat.
No, but I also don't believe they fudged their numbers in such a way that they're anywhere close to ours. That would be damn near impossible in today's internet whistleblower culture.Quote:
If you believe anything that comes from China, well then it is clear there is no point in having a logical discussion with you.
MassAggie97 said:No, but I also don't believe they fudged their numbers in such a way that they're anywhere close to ours. That would be damn near impossible in today's internet whistleblower culture.Quote:
If you believe anything that comes from China, well then it is clear there is no point in having a logical discussion with you.
MassAggie97 said:
I'm sorry but I'm pretty sure you're mistaken about the governor's executive order. That being the case, I'm assuming you're okay with the masks now?
Nitro Power said:
Lol...like I said...logical conversation with you would be a frivolous exercise.
In your hypothetical, the mask protected her at first contact. Your scenario, which relies on secondary contact, proves the point. No, masks will not protect people in every instance. However, you CHOSE to take the scenario in the direction of secondary contact. It's just as likely "mom" puts her mask in the door of the car like I do, and in the Texas heat once the car is turned off, the virus denatures very quickly.Quote:
Mom goes to store with mask on. Handles a product with virus on it. Touches her mask, virus now on mask. Leaves store, gets in car, tosses virus laden mask in passenger seat. Puts sanitizer on her hands. Goes to pick up daughter from daycare. Daughter gets in, handles mask, scratches her eye. Daughter now had covid. Days later, entire family has covid.
The vector for spread, for both the virus and the bacteria, is spit. That's the whole point. Throw away the size difference between a bacteria and a virus - either one would slip through any mask by itself. I think it would be a rare million-to-one shot for a single bacteria to fly out of somebody's face not housed in a river of spit.Quote:
It will take a while to find, but a surgeon on this site explained that it is BACTERIA they are mainly protecting from - not viruses. That's like comparing a bowling ball to a BB in the microbe world.
MassAggie97 said:In your hypothetical, the mask protected her at first contact. Your scenario, which relies on secondary contact, proves the point. No, masks will not protect people in every instance. However, you CHOSE to take the scenario in the direction of secondary contact. It's just as likely "mom" puts her mask in the door of the car like I do, and in the Texas heat once the car is turned off, the virus denatures very quickly.Quote:
Mom goes to store with mask on. Handles a product with virus on it. Touches her mask, virus now on mask. Leaves store, gets in car, tosses virus laden mask in passenger seat. Puts sanitizer on her hands. Goes to pick up daughter from daycare. Daughter gets in, handles mask, scratches her eye. Daughter now had covid. Days later, entire family has covid.The vector for spread, for both the virus and the bacteria, is spit. That's the whole point. Throw away the size difference between a bacteria and a virus - either one would slip through any mask by itself. I think it would be a rare million-to-one shot for a single bacteria to fly out of somebody's face not housed in a river of spit.Quote:
It will take a while to find, but a surgeon on this site explained that it is BACTERIA they are mainly protecting from - not viruses. That's like comparing a bowling ball to a BB in the microbe world.
No problem I'm not really gaining anything from you either.Quote:
Lol...like I said...logical conversation with you would be a frivolous exercise.
Holy #$&@! I can't believe I just read that. There is ignorant, then there is MassAggie97 ignorant.....MassAggie97 said:No, but I also don't believe they fudged their numbers in such a way that they're anywhere close to ours. That would be damn near impossible in today's internet whistleblower culture.Quote:
If you believe anything that comes from China, well then it is clear there is no point in having a logical discussion with you.
MassAggie97 said:In your hypothetical, the mask protected her at first contact. Your scenario, which relies on secondary contact, proves the point. No, masks will not protect people in every instance. However, you CHOSE to take the scenario in the direction of secondary contact. It's just as likely "mom" puts her mask in the door of the car like I do, and in the Texas heat once the car is turned off, the virus denatures very quickly.Quote:
Mom goes to store with mask on. Handles a product with virus on it. Touches her mask, virus now on mask. Leaves store, gets in car, tosses virus laden mask in passenger seat. Puts sanitizer on her hands. Goes to pick up daughter from daycare. Daughter gets in, handles mask, scratches her eye. Daughter now had covid. Days later, entire family has covid.The vector for spread, for both the virus and the bacteria, is spit. That's the whole point. Throw away the size difference between a bacteria and a virus - either one would slip through any mask by itself. I think it would be a rare million-to-one shot for a single bacteria to fly out of somebody's face not housed in a river of spit.Quote:
It will take a while to find, but a surgeon on this site explained that it is BACTERIA they are mainly protecting from - not viruses. That's like comparing a bowling ball to a BB in the microbe world.
B-1 83 said:Holy #$&@! I can't believe I just read that. There is ignorant, then there is MassAggie97 ignorant.....MassAggie97 said:No, but I also don't believe they fudged their numbers in such a way that they're anywhere close to ours. That would be damn near impossible in today's internet whistleblower culture.Quote:
If you believe anything that comes from China, well then it is clear there is no point in having a logical discussion with you.
He's trying to surpass another poster by the initials of SP.B-1 83 said:Holy #$&@! I can't believe I just read that. There is ignorant, then there is MassAggie97 ignorant.....MassAggie97 said:No, but I also don't believe they fudged their numbers in such a way that they're anywhere close to ours. That would be damn near impossible in today's internet whistleblower culture.Quote:
If you believe anything that comes from China, well then it is clear there is no point in having a logical discussion with you.
Did you even read what I said? Did the mask protect her if you changed your hypothetical to "threw it in the door of the car" instead of "threw it wear her kid would be sitting later"? I can make up hypotheticals too. YOU made up the one where the woman touched her face but a mask was there instead of her face.Quote:
The mask did not protect her, genius. You just make **** up, don't you?
After cancelling elective procedures and putting a mask mandate in place they have still seen a steady rise in the percentage of ICU patients that are COVID-19, from the teens to 44% as of yesterday.Gold Star ntxVol said:
It's been 12 days, not quite 2 weeks yet but Houston's hospitals are nowhere near being overrun.
Why are we going backwards? We need to open everything up and let this thing run its course.
MassAggie97 said:Did you even read what I said? Did the mask protect her if you changed your hypothetical to "threw it in the door of the car" instead of "threw it wear her kid would be sitting later"? I can make up hypotheticals too. YOU made up the one where the woman touched her face but a mask was there instead of her face.Quote:
The mask did not protect her, genius. You just make **** up, don't you?
Awesome quote. I don't think "hypothetical" means what you think it means.Quote:
That hypothetical is real.
Maybe you don't understand how these masks work. You're not supposed to share them with other people. I'm beginning to see the issue now.Quote:
Thats one of many reasons masks don't reduce spread. Dirty, Covid laced masks all over the damn place.
The entire premise of this thread was that Houston's hospitals would exceed capacity in just 2 weeks. That's absolutely not happening. Yes, hospital administrators are having to manage elective surgeries because of the the additional load from the Chinese flu. THAT's THEIR JOB.ETFan said:After cancelling elective procedures and putting a mask mandate in place they have still seen a steady rise in the percentage of ICU patients that are COVID-19, from the teens to 44% as of yesterday.Gold Star ntxVol said:
It's been 12 days, not quite 2 weeks yet but Houston's hospitals are nowhere near being overrun.
Why are we going backwards? We need to open everything up and let this thing run its course.
They had to cancel elective procedures and shuffle beds to make room for the steady, still increasing, number of COVID-19 patients needing ICU.
Yes, capacity is being kept in check, but it is not back to normal at TMC. Hopefully they can continue to shuffle and keep capacity in check, unfortunately that's also at the expense of elective procedures.
"Everything is fine at TMC,return to normal" seems ignorant. The hospital themselves put out a statement saying please be cautious so we can keep things under control here.
You might enjoy this review, then, as it may address your questions and concerns:MassAggie97 said:I'm still waiting to hear an actual explanation of how a disease that is transmitted through water droplets flying out of your face when you cough or sneeze is NOT impacted by a barrier over your face when you are coughing and sneezing.Quote:
They've lost all credibility and this goes with the mask thing too. If someone is stupid enough to believe a lie after believing it the previous 9 times then they deserve what they get.
Speaking of stupid.....The whole surgical profession is built around masks being able to stop doctors and nurses from accidentally infecting surgery patients through their breathing, coughing, etc. It's been that way forever, yet now all of a sudden Texags forum 16 and the Trump party have decided that the doctors and nurses have just been wasting their time and money all these years. Think how "stupid" those medical professionals must feel.
With regard to the first bolded sentence, "literature review" studies, or meta-analyses, are never a substitute for an actual controlled study. With regard to the 2nd bolded sentence, "lack of substantial evidence" from the literature is meaningless. There is probably "lack of substantial evidence" that spitting inside of a patient can spread disease, but that doesn't mean it is wise to spit into a patient. The fact that an overwhelming majority of surgeons choose to mask in the face of this study says it all.Quote:
Examination of the literature revealed much of the published work on the matter to be quite dated and often studies had poorly elucidated methodologies. As a result, we recommend caution in extrapolating their findings to contemporary surgical practice. However, overall there is a lack of substantial evidence to support claims that facemasks protect either patient or surgeon from infectious contamination. More rigorous contemporary research is needed to make a definitive comment on the effectiveness of surgical facemasks.
I would argue that this "finding" lacks merit, because as stated, a majority of surgeons wear masks. How are you going to test the null hypothesis of "no effect" if you can't find a control group of non-mask wearers? The examples in that paper are non controlled, and their sample sizes are too small to have any merit.Quote:
In the modern era, there has also been a scarcity of experimental evidence to support the effectiveness of facemasks in the prevention of surgical site infections.
Funny, that's almost the same thing some Korean scientists did...except they specifically counted CV19 particles instead just showing off whatever random bacteria colonies popped up. They found that the viral loads expelled with/without masks were not significantly different.MassAggie97 said:
Finally, there was a simple experiment done by a group on Facebook with masks and agar plates that was controlled, was pretty definitive, and took 1 day to carry out. You've probably seen it. Even better, it's been repeated several times now by different groups, using the same general experimental conditions, and getting the same result. That's experimental science.
Quote:
We had not fully recognized the concept of limit of detection (LOD) of the in-house reverse transcriptase polymerase chain reaction used in the study (2.63 log copies/mL), and we regret our failure to express the values below LOD as "<LOD (value)." The LOD is a statistical measure of the lowest quantity of the analyte that can be distinguished from the absence of that analyte. Therefore, values below the LOD are unreliable and our findings are uninterpretable. Reader comments raised this issue after publication. We proposed correcting the reported data with new experimental data from additional patients, but the editors requested retraction.
OMG, not sure how I missed this post, thank you OP. Is Houston now deciding who to save and who to kill based on limited ICU space?Toptierag2018 said:
https://www.tmc.edu/coronavirus-updates/proposed-early-warning-monitoring-and-mitigation-metrics/
What's the latest orders put in place in Harris County? I'm not up to date on them.
Houston is one of the biggest if not the biggest hub for medical care. This is scary.