Zobel said:
Repent, dude.
I regularly ask for forgiveness. You are soft.
The innocent Palestinians we should weap for.
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Last: 1 yr ago by BonfireNerd04
I regularly ask for forgiveness. You are soft.
even if you don't think what you are describing is genocide (it is), it's sinfully flippant to describe it as "withholding Halloween candy"
The glee with which some celebrate atrocity is nothing short of proof of total depravity of mankind. God never desires for war, suffering, or catastrophe.
The glee with which some celebrate atrocity is nothing short of proof of total depravity of mankind. God never desires for war, suffering, or catastrophe.
Yeah, that's pretty given that the indiscriminately bombing of cities was a violation of Hague Convention.BonfireNerd04 said:So then, do you believe that the US and UK committed war crimes during WW2?Pro Sandy said:Fourth Geneva Convention speaks of protecting civilians. Can't target civilian infrastructure unless absolute military objective, can't collectively punish people, and can't forcibly evict entire populations. All solutions that have been proposed here.BonfireNerd04 said:
Since when does anyone have an obligation to provide services to a city they're at war with?
Pro Sandy said:Yeah, that's pretty given that the indiscriminately bombing of cities was a violation of Hague Convention.BonfireNerd04 said:So then, do you believe that the US and UK committed war crimes during WW2?Pro Sandy said:Fourth Geneva Convention speaks of protecting civilians. Can't target civilian infrastructure unless absolute military objective, can't collectively punish people, and can't forcibly evict entire populations. All solutions that have been proposed here.BonfireNerd04 said:
Since when does anyone have an obligation to provide services to a city they're at war with?
Seems like disabling Hamas' ability to communicate is a clear military objective.
And anyone who saw the "civlians" cheering the naked, dead, and mutilated bodies being paraded through the street or participating in the beatings of the hostages taken should be able to acknowledge that a large portion of the "civilians" are not actual civilians.
Their schools teach children that it is necessary to kill jews.
Hamas specifically targetted civilians for execution and capture.
Sorry. Cutting off the electricity and water is justified and a much more merciful tactic than the tactics Hamas used during their attacks and butchering of civlians.
It may very well be a valid military target, but if Israel doesn't allow international aid into southern Gaza, world opinion won't hold with them beyond a few weeks
Pro Sandy said:We defeated al Qaeda. Without ethnic cleansing. Didn't even force all Afghanis to leave their homes.BonfireNerd04 said:Pro Sandy said:It won't. The Islamists don't want a land or to be integrated. They want the entire Holy Land. Islamist philosophy must be defeated.BonfireNerd04 said:Well, not if they're kept segregated. But if they could be integrated into their destination countries, the way that German expellees were integrated into German society, then it would work.Quote:
But forcing everyone in Gaza to leave won't give Israel security either.
OK. How do you defeat it without "ethnic cleansing"?
No we didn't.
Al qeada is still in existence and still active.
Regarding afghanistan- the Taliban now controls it.
Parading Afghanistan and AL Qeada as an example of some strategic victory in changing a barbaric and sinful culture to a moral one is an outright lie.
We didn't build democracy in Iraq or Afghanistan after we went in. They were if anything a perfect example of how a culture and people steeped in sin, barbarism, and immorality will resist to the death any attempt to change it.
Pro Sandy said:
It may very well be a valid military target, but if Israel doesn't allow international aid into southern Gaza, world opinion won't hold with them beyond a few weeks
That isn't what you said. You said Israel was in violation of the Geneva conventions.
I was pointing out they weren't. Then you moved the goalposts to say they were "going to turn world opinion against them".
swimmerbabe11 said:
even if you don't think what you are describing is genocide (it is), it's sinfully flippant to describe it as "withholding Halloween candy"
The glee with which some celebrate atrocity is nothing short of proof of total depravity of mankind. God never desires for war, suffering, or catastrophe.
God may never desire it, but he has demonstrated multiple times that in extreme circumstances such a thing is necessary in order to break a human created cycle of sin, murder, barbarism in order to allow righteous people to worship and thrive and stop the persecution of the righteous.
See below.
Zobel said:
False dichotomy. There are more options that do nothing and ethnic cleansing. And between the two, do nothing is better than active immorality.
So was God immoral when he destroyed Soddom and Gomorrah, commanded the Jews to destroy all the Caananites to the last woman and child, drowned an entire Egyptian army, killed all the innocent first born sons of a nation to make a point.....the list goes on and on....be careful ur toeing the line of judging God.
Zobel said:
"If someone wants to do a genocide, I'm fine with it and we'll just call it God's will"
So your faith is placed in man for solutions to this matter and not God? How's that working out?
No, I told the poster earlier that I didn't say they were in violation, but was responding to the poster asking why anyone cared about civilian infrastructure.Ags4DaWin said:Pro Sandy said:
It may very well be a valid military target, but if Israel doesn't allow international aid into southern Gaza, world opinion won't hold with them beyond a few weeks
That isn't what you said. You said Israel was in violation of the Geneva conventions.
I was pointing out they weren't. Then you moved the goalposts to say they were "going to turn world opinion against them".
Violating the law of war only matters if someone brings you up on charges and you submit to the international court. World opinion matters if you are dependent upon them for things like more weapons.
Pro Sandy said:Oh, I didn't use any of that as an attack on what Israel is doing, but addressing the question about civilians.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Fourth Geneva Convention speaks of protecting civilians. Can't target civilian infrastructure unless absolute military objective, can't collectively punish people, and can't forcibly evict entire populations. All solutions that have been proposed here.BonfireNerd04 said:
Since when does anyone have an obligation to provide services to a city they're at war with?
You're grasping for straws on this one.
If there is anybody violating the Fourth geneva Conventions, it's Hamas, who is:
1. Hiding military equipment in civilian buildings.
2. Using civilians as shields (including jewish babys
Israel choosing not to continue to provide free aid to Gaza is not a violation. In fact, the right question you should be asking is why has Hamas done nothing to improve infrastructure in 20 years?
If Israel doesn't allow foreign aid to come in, world opinion will turn. That doesn't need Geneva Convention, that's just the way world opinion works.
So you're using hypotheticals...Ok.
But the reality, and not hypothetical is Hamas is hiding it's military behind civilians, stopping civilians from leaving in hopes they die, stealing aid from civilians, and using civilians at shields....
and yet, I don't see anybody here or in the world screaming about "Fourth Geneva Convention" at Hamas...
Seems odd so many only want to point fingers at Israel instead of the group committing real war crimes...
AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Oh, I didn't use any of that as an attack on what Israel is doing, but addressing the question about civilians.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Fourth Geneva Convention speaks of protecting civilians. Can't target civilian infrastructure unless absolute military objective, can't collectively punish people, and can't forcibly evict entire populations. All solutions that have been proposed here.BonfireNerd04 said:
Since when does anyone have an obligation to provide services to a city they're at war with?
You're grasping for straws on this one.
If there is anybody violating the Fourth geneva Conventions, it's Hamas, who is:
1. Hiding military equipment in civilian buildings.
2. Using civilians as shields (including jewish babys
Israel choosing not to continue to provide free aid to Gaza is not a violation. In fact, the right question you should be asking is why has Hamas done nothing to improve infrastructure in 20 years?
If Israel doesn't allow foreign aid to come in, world opinion will turn. That doesn't need Geneva Convention, that's just the way world opinion works.
So you're using hypotheticals...Ok.
But the reality, and not hypothetical is Hamas is hiding it's military behind civilians, stopping civilians from leaving in hopes they die, stealing aid from civilians, and using civilians at shields....
and yet, I don't see anybody here or in the world screaming about "Fourth Geneva Convention" at Hamas...
Seems odd so many only want to point fingers at Israel instead of the group committing real war crimes...
It's the demonic force of antisemitism at work.
Hamas is evil. The way they fight is horrendous and illegal. They should be completely destroyed.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Oh, I didn't use any of that as an attack on what Israel is doing, but addressing the question about civilians.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Fourth Geneva Convention speaks of protecting civilians. Can't target civilian infrastructure unless absolute military objective, can't collectively punish people, and can't forcibly evict entire populations. All solutions that have been proposed here.BonfireNerd04 said:
Since when does anyone have an obligation to provide services to a city they're at war with?
You're grasping for straws on this one.
If there is anybody violating the Fourth geneva Conventions, it's Hamas, who is:
1. Hiding military equipment in civilian buildings.
2. Using civilians as shields (including jewish babys
Israel choosing not to continue to provide free aid to Gaza is not a violation. In fact, the right question you should be asking is why has Hamas done nothing to improve infrastructure in 20 years?
If Israel doesn't allow foreign aid to come in, world opinion will turn. That doesn't need Geneva Convention, that's just the way world opinion works.
So you're using hypotheticals...Ok.
But the reality, and not hypothetical is Hamas is hiding it's military behind civilians, stopping civilians from leaving in hopes they die, stealing aid from civilians, and using civilians at shields....
and yet, I don't see anybody here or in the world screaming about "Fourth Geneva Convention" at Hamas...
Seems odd so many only want to point fingers at Israel instead of the group committing real war crimes...
It is also true that the OPs and others desire to commit genocide, "go old testament" or evict all people who are not Israeli from Gaza is wrong in that it will not achieve desired objectives and is immoral and illegal.
Pro Sandy said:Hamas is evil. The way they fight is horrendous and illegal. They should be completely destroyed.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Oh, I didn't use any of that as an attack on what Israel is doing, but addressing the question about civilians.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Fourth Geneva Convention speaks of protecting civilians. Can't target civilian infrastructure unless absolute military objective, can't collectively punish people, and can't forcibly evict entire populations. All solutions that have been proposed here.BonfireNerd04 said:
Since when does anyone have an obligation to provide services to a city they're at war with?
You're grasping for straws on this one.
If there is anybody violating the Fourth geneva Conventions, it's Hamas, who is:
1. Hiding military equipment in civilian buildings.
2. Using civilians as shields (including jewish babys
Israel choosing not to continue to provide free aid to Gaza is not a violation. In fact, the right question you should be asking is why has Hamas done nothing to improve infrastructure in 20 years?
If Israel doesn't allow foreign aid to come in, world opinion will turn. That doesn't need Geneva Convention, that's just the way world opinion works.
So you're using hypotheticals...Ok.
But the reality, and not hypothetical is Hamas is hiding it's military behind civilians, stopping civilians from leaving in hopes they die, stealing aid from civilians, and using civilians at shields....
and yet, I don't see anybody here or in the world screaming about "Fourth Geneva Convention" at Hamas...
Seems odd so many only want to point fingers at Israel instead of the group committing real war crimes...
It is also true that the OPs and others desire to commit genocide, "go old testament" or evict all people who are not Israeli from Gaza is wrong in that it will not achieve desired objectives and is immoral and illegal.
So Hamas is evil and should be destroyed most of us agree.
But then what is the real world solution? Non of us is God and can just will it to happen.
There is no real world solution that Israel can do other than what they are doing. Every real world solution has the left on this board crying genocide because according to the left forced relocation now constitutes genocide.
The Palestinians elected Hamas. The Palestinians are Hamas and those that are not part of it take no action to end it either because they somewhat support it or are too afraid….. which is understandable.
I think was Israel is doing now is right, at least justifiable. They are not committing genocide or forced relocation like you have advocated for.SirDippinDots said:Pro Sandy said:Hamas is evil. The way they fight is horrendous and illegal. They should be completely destroyed.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Oh, I didn't use any of that as an attack on what Israel is doing, but addressing the question about civilians.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Fourth Geneva Convention speaks of protecting civilians. Can't target civilian infrastructure unless absolute military objective, can't collectively punish people, and can't forcibly evict entire populations. All solutions that have been proposed here.BonfireNerd04 said:
Since when does anyone have an obligation to provide services to a city they're at war with?
You're grasping for straws on this one.
If there is anybody violating the Fourth geneva Conventions, it's Hamas, who is:
1. Hiding military equipment in civilian buildings.
2. Using civilians as shields (including jewish babys
Israel choosing not to continue to provide free aid to Gaza is not a violation. In fact, the right question you should be asking is why has Hamas done nothing to improve infrastructure in 20 years?
If Israel doesn't allow foreign aid to come in, world opinion will turn. That doesn't need Geneva Convention, that's just the way world opinion works.
So you're using hypotheticals...Ok.
But the reality, and not hypothetical is Hamas is hiding it's military behind civilians, stopping civilians from leaving in hopes they die, stealing aid from civilians, and using civilians at shields....
and yet, I don't see anybody here or in the world screaming about "Fourth Geneva Convention" at Hamas...
Seems odd so many only want to point fingers at Israel instead of the group committing real war crimes...
It is also true that the OPs and others desire to commit genocide, "go old testament" or evict all people who are not Israeli from Gaza is wrong in that it will not achieve desired objectives and is immoral and illegal.
So Hamas is evil and should be destroyed most of us agree.
But then what is the real world solution? Non of us is God and can just will it to happen.
There is no real world solution that Israel can do other than what they are doing. Every real world solution has the left on this board crying genocide because according to the left forced relocation now constitutes genocide.
The Palestinians elected Hamas. The Palestinians are Hamas and those that are not part of it take no action to end it either because they somewhat support it or are too afraid….. which is understandable.
I think they should allow international humanitarian relief in to keep world opinion.
No.Quote:
So was God immoral when he destroyed Soddom and Gomorrah, commanded the Jews to destroy all the Caananites to the last woman and child, drowned an entire Egyptian army, killed all the innocent first born sons of a nation to make a point.....the list goes on and on....be careful ur toeing the line of judging God.
The modern nation state of Israel is not the angel of the Lord.
Nor are they the Israel of the scriptures.
Palestinians are not Amalekites.
Benjamin Netanyahu is not Moses, or a judge of Israel.
Pro Sandy said:I think was Israel is doing now is right, at least justifiable. They are not committing genocide or forced relocation like you have advocated for.SirDippinDots said:Pro Sandy said:Hamas is evil. The way they fight is horrendous and illegal. They should be completely destroyed.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Oh, I didn't use any of that as an attack on what Israel is doing, but addressing the question about civilians.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Fourth Geneva Convention speaks of protecting civilians. Can't target civilian infrastructure unless absolute military objective, can't collectively punish people, and can't forcibly evict entire populations. All solutions that have been proposed here.BonfireNerd04 said:
Since when does anyone have an obligation to provide services to a city they're at war with?
You're grasping for straws on this one.
If there is anybody violating the Fourth geneva Conventions, it's Hamas, who is:
1. Hiding military equipment in civilian buildings.
2. Using civilians as shields (including jewish babys
Israel choosing not to continue to provide free aid to Gaza is not a violation. In fact, the right question you should be asking is why has Hamas done nothing to improve infrastructure in 20 years?
If Israel doesn't allow foreign aid to come in, world opinion will turn. That doesn't need Geneva Convention, that's just the way world opinion works.
So you're using hypotheticals...Ok.
But the reality, and not hypothetical is Hamas is hiding it's military behind civilians, stopping civilians from leaving in hopes they die, stealing aid from civilians, and using civilians at shields....
and yet, I don't see anybody here or in the world screaming about "Fourth Geneva Convention" at Hamas...
Seems odd so many only want to point fingers at Israel instead of the group committing real war crimes...
It is also true that the OPs and others desire to commit genocide, "go old testament" or evict all people who are not Israeli from Gaza is wrong in that it will not achieve desired objectives and is immoral and illegal.
So Hamas is evil and should be destroyed most of us agree.
But then what is the real world solution? Non of us is God and can just will it to happen.
There is no real world solution that Israel can do other than what they are doing. Every real world solution has the left on this board crying genocide because according to the left forced relocation now constitutes genocide.
The Palestinians elected Hamas. The Palestinians are Hamas and those that are not part of it take no action to end it either because they somewhat support it or are too afraid….. which is understandable.
I think they should allow international humanitarian relief in to keep world opinion.
They have told everyone in northern Gaza to leave. To me that is forced relocation. Maybe it will be permanent maybe not.
This is a non sequitur.Quote:
So your faith is placed in man for solutions to this matter and not God? How's that working out?
You are basically saying that in this case, because you sympathize with one side over another, you're willing to let it play out and say the outcome is God's will.
Why is that any different than the holocaust?
God's will is good and perfect and takes what men mean for evil to make good. That does not mean that all things that happen are good, or say that fundamentally bad things are good. "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!"
Genocide is evil - it is absolutely the work of the Evil One who wants nothing more than to see men destroy each other. Those Palestinians are not your enemies. They are brothers who have fallen to slavery of demons. "Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world's darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." We should pray for the salvation of all, not rejoice in evil. "Love does not delight in unrighteousness."
"Therefore, I exhort entreaties, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings, to be made on behalf of all men for kings and all those being in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
I took care in choosing my words
When you find evidence that God delighted in those events, I'll shut up. One snarky text message to a prophet and I'll never accuse of God of loving peace and desiring salvation for all again.
Most people don't find joy in punishing their children. The Christian God certainly doesn't.
Be careful with your eisegesis and thinking you are equipped to carry a sword on His behalf.
When you find evidence that God delighted in those events, I'll shut up. One snarky text message to a prophet and I'll never accuse of God of loving peace and desiring salvation for all again.
Most people don't find joy in punishing their children. The Christian God certainly doesn't.
Be careful with your eisegesis and thinking you are equipped to carry a sword on His behalf.
Israel - somewhat to their own surprise - got most of the way through the process of driving the Arabs from the territory, and lacked either the fortitude or the international support to finish the job. They've forced millions of people to live in what amounts to a city-sized internment camp with no resources, no food, no water. Most of these people have no means to make a living, they can't leave. They have no hope. They've never known anything else.
The people living in Gaza are about as responsible for Hamas as a leadership organization as inmates in prison are for electing the gangs that rule there. It's not the US, these are not people with actual political agency.
This does not excuse terrorism or murder, but it does explain it. Desperate people who feel they have no hope, no future, and nothing to lose do desperate, stupid things. When you surround an enemy and leave them no avenue of retreat, they will fight to the death. That's exactly what is happening here, playing out in slow motion.
This is a tragedy, and a tragic outcome was guaranteed decades ago. We should be careful who we support and who we condemn. You and I have no control over the actions of either side - so our moral culpability is confined to the opinions we express and the limited actions we do take. We should not advocate for evil.
To make it clear - the terrorists are practicing evil and I have no problem condemning them. Your broad brush approach is what I take issue with.
The people living in Gaza are about as responsible for Hamas as a leadership organization as inmates in prison are for electing the gangs that rule there. It's not the US, these are not people with actual political agency.
This does not excuse terrorism or murder, but it does explain it. Desperate people who feel they have no hope, no future, and nothing to lose do desperate, stupid things. When you surround an enemy and leave them no avenue of retreat, they will fight to the death. That's exactly what is happening here, playing out in slow motion.
This is a tragedy, and a tragic outcome was guaranteed decades ago. We should be careful who we support and who we condemn. You and I have no control over the actions of either side - so our moral culpability is confined to the opinions we express and the limited actions we do take. We should not advocate for evil.
To make it clear - the terrorists are practicing evil and I have no problem condemning them. Your broad brush approach is what I take issue with.
Zobel said:
Israel - somewhat to their own surprise - got most of the way through the process of driving the Arabs from the territory, and lacked either the fortitude or the international support to finish the job. They've forced millions of people to live in what amounts to a city-sized internment camp with no resources, no food, no water. Most of these people have no means to make a living, they can't leave. They have no hope. They've never known anything else.
The people living in Gaza are about as responsible for Hamas as a leadership organization as inmates in prison are for electing the gangs that rule there. It's not the US, these are not people with actual political agency.
This does not excuse terrorism or murder, but it does explain it. Desperate people who feel they have no hope, no future, and nothing to lose do desperate, stupid things. When you surround an enemy and leave them no avenue of retreat, they will fight to the death. That's exactly what is happening here, playing out in slow motion.
This is a tragedy, and a tragic outcome was guaranteed decades ago. We should be careful who we support and who we condemn. You and I have no control over the actions of either side - so our moral culpability is confined to the opinions we express and the limited actions we do take. We should not advocate for evil.
To make it clear - the terrorists are practicing evil and I have no problem condemning them. Your broad brush approach is what I take issue with.
Agree completely.
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So to you Israel telling civilians to leave an active war zone and you saying "I am saying scripture commands forced relocation. " are the same?SirDippinDots said:Pro Sandy said:I think was Israel is doing now is right, at least justifiable. They are not committing genocide or forced relocation like you have advocated for.SirDippinDots said:Pro Sandy said:Hamas is evil. The way they fight is horrendous and illegal. They should be completely destroyed.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Oh, I didn't use any of that as an attack on what Israel is doing, but addressing the question about civilians.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Fourth Geneva Convention speaks of protecting civilians. Can't target civilian infrastructure unless absolute military objective, can't collectively punish people, and can't forcibly evict entire populations. All solutions that have been proposed here.BonfireNerd04 said:
Since when does anyone have an obligation to provide services to a city they're at war with?
You're grasping for straws on this one.
If there is anybody violating the Fourth geneva Conventions, it's Hamas, who is:
1. Hiding military equipment in civilian buildings.
2. Using civilians as shields (including jewish babys
Israel choosing not to continue to provide free aid to Gaza is not a violation. In fact, the right question you should be asking is why has Hamas done nothing to improve infrastructure in 20 years?
If Israel doesn't allow foreign aid to come in, world opinion will turn. That doesn't need Geneva Convention, that's just the way world opinion works.
So you're using hypotheticals...Ok.
But the reality, and not hypothetical is Hamas is hiding it's military behind civilians, stopping civilians from leaving in hopes they die, stealing aid from civilians, and using civilians at shields....
and yet, I don't see anybody here or in the world screaming about "Fourth Geneva Convention" at Hamas...
Seems odd so many only want to point fingers at Israel instead of the group committing real war crimes...
It is also true that the OPs and others desire to commit genocide, "go old testament" or evict all people who are not Israeli from Gaza is wrong in that it will not achieve desired objectives and is immoral and illegal.
So Hamas is evil and should be destroyed most of us agree.
But then what is the real world solution? Non of us is God and can just will it to happen.
There is no real world solution that Israel can do other than what they are doing. Every real world solution has the left on this board crying genocide because according to the left forced relocation now constitutes genocide.
The Palestinians elected Hamas. The Palestinians are Hamas and those that are not part of it take no action to end it either because they somewhat support it or are too afraid….. which is understandable.
I think they should allow international humanitarian relief in to keep world opinion.
They have told everyone in northern Gaza to leave. To me that is forced relocation. Maybe it will be permanent maybe not.
Ok, hard to argue with that equivalency.
Zobel said:
Israel - somewhat to their own surprise - got most of the way through the process of driving the Arabs from the territory, and lacked either the fortitude or the international support to finish the job. They've forced millions of people to live in what amounts to a city-sized internment camp with no resources, no food, no water. Most of these people have no means to make a living, they can't leave. They have no hope. They've never known anything else.
The people living in Gaza are about as responsible for Hamas as a leadership organization as inmates in prison are for electing the gangs that rule there. It's not the US, these are not people with actual political agency.
This does not excuse terrorism or murder, but it does explain it. Desperate people who feel they have no hope, no future, and nothing to lose do desperate, stupid things. When you surround an enemy and leave them no avenue of retreat, they will fight to the death. That's exactly what is happening here, playing out in slow motion.
This is a tragedy, and a tragic outcome was guaranteed decades ago. We should be careful who we support and who we condemn. You and I have no control over the actions of either side - so our moral culpability is confined to the opinions we express and the limited actions we do take. We should not advocate for evil.
To make it clear - the terrorists are practicing evil and I have no problem condemning them. Your broad brush approach is what I take issue with.
This is the take Hamas would like you to have. It's also not a particularly good take.
Hamas is the elected political party in Gaza. You can try to get around that, but that's the simple truth. Hamas was voted in by the citizens of Gaza and they are the ruling party. We can of course ask the question why Palestinians don't seem to hold elections, but that's applicable across a lot of muslim regions.
We could talk about how the people of Gaza never seem to rise up against Hamas, but that's probably another uncomfortable conversation about where their loyalties lie.
Then we need to talk about these "desperate people." How many billions flow into Gaza each year? It's significant by any measure.
AP news
If the people of Gaza are desperate, it's because of Hamas, not Israel. If the people of Gaza are upset with Hamas, where is the resistance? Why are they still supporting Hamas today?
Gazans are furious, but not at Hamas.
— Imshin (@imshin) October 15, 2023
A colorful compilation.#HamasisISIS pic.twitter.com/lPu3BvlJ2H
Here's an inteview that Vice did with a Hamas fighter. At the 6 minute mark that conversation starts. Notice what he says about whether the people of Gaza support Hamas or not...
If the people of Gaza are desperate, why has the UN and other countries not investigated why the water infrastructure they laid is now being used for missiles? Why the UN aid was stolen by "a group of people."
UNRWA may have deleted the post, but we kept the receipts.
— Aviva Klompas (@AvivaKlompas) October 16, 2023
Here they are confessing that 'people' (that'd be Hamas) stole food and medical equipment from the aid agency. pic.twitter.com/Bv1usCuBke
Why is it that Muslim countries (Egypt) want nothing to do with Gaza? They could be offering infrastructure. Instead they build walls 20-30 feet above and below ground.
It's a said situation because the West wants to treat Gaza like a western society. Unfortunately they aren't.
Your AP article sums up a total of $8.2 bn from 2014-2021. Roughly 2.3 million people live in the Gaza strip. That comes out to around $3600 per person. Texas spends around $6000 per student on education alone. Houston is spending $12bn on roads - just roads - over the next three years. What about these numbers seem like amazing largesse to you?
None of this changes the facts on the ground that the Gaza strip is an area with no natural resources, is wholly dependent on the outside for energy, food, and water, and as a result has little to no economic productivity. The average monthly wage is $2500, and unemployment is around 50%...down from 80% two years ago. They can't leave. There is nowhere for them to go.
All of these signs point to Hamas - described in your link as an Islamic militant group who seized power - as a cartel who holds power, and uses that power to terrorize both Israeli and the Gaza strip, along with imposing taxation and diverting funds toward militant ends.
As to why no one wants them? The same reason most of the same people on the Right in this country aren't proponents of open borders policies. Refugees disrupt local labor patterns, are often poor and bring crime, and other trouble. Nevermind reasons realpolitik - as long as they remain a thorn in the side of Israel, that benefits Israel's enemies.
And that doesn't even get into how we got here in the first place. The world didn't begin in 2006.
Edit to add - even if you were perfectly correct, it still doesn't justify genocide. Hope that helps.
None of this changes the facts on the ground that the Gaza strip is an area with no natural resources, is wholly dependent on the outside for energy, food, and water, and as a result has little to no economic productivity. The average monthly wage is $2500, and unemployment is around 50%...down from 80% two years ago. They can't leave. There is nowhere for them to go.
All of these signs point to Hamas - described in your link as an Islamic militant group who seized power - as a cartel who holds power, and uses that power to terrorize both Israeli and the Gaza strip, along with imposing taxation and diverting funds toward militant ends.
As to why no one wants them? The same reason most of the same people on the Right in this country aren't proponents of open borders policies. Refugees disrupt local labor patterns, are often poor and bring crime, and other trouble. Nevermind reasons realpolitik - as long as they remain a thorn in the side of Israel, that benefits Israel's enemies.
And that doesn't even get into how we got here in the first place. The world didn't begin in 2006.
Edit to add - even if you were perfectly correct, it still doesn't justify genocide. Hope that helps.
Zobel said:
Your AP article sums up a total of $8.2 bn from 2014-2021. Roughly 2.3 million people live in the Gaza strip. That comes out to around $3600 per person. Texas spends around $6000 per student on education alone. Houston is spending $12bn on roads - just roads - over the next three years. What about these numbers seem like amazing largesse to you?
None of this changes the facts on the ground that the Gaza strip is an area with no natural resources, is wholly dependent on the outside for energy, food, and water, and as a result has little to no economic productivity. The average monthly wage is $2500, and unemployment is around 50%...down from 80% two years ago. They can't leave. There is nowhere for them to go.
All of these signs point to Hamas - described in your link as an Islamic militant group who seized power - as a cartel who holds power, and uses that power to terrorize both Israeli and the Gaza strip, along with imposing taxation and diverting funds toward militant ends.
As to why no one wants them? The same reason most of the same people on the Right in this country aren't proponents of open borders policies. Refugees disrupt local labor patterns, are often poor and bring crime, and other trouble. Nevermind reasons realpolitik - as long as they remain a thorn in the side of Israel, that benefits Israel's enemies.
And that doesn't even get into how we got here in the first place. The world didn't begin in 2006.
Edit to add - even if you were perfectly correct, it still doesn't justify genocide. Hope that helps.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you misread the AP article.
I'll note for you that you used the timeline from the UN and then tried to apply it to the rest of the article. That's a misunderstanding of what the article says
If we use just 2020 forward, per the article:
Quote:
From 2014-2020, U.N. agencies spent nearly $4.5 billion in Gaza, including $600 million in 2020 alone
Quote:
That includes $360 million pledged in January for 2021 and another $500 million pledged for reconstruction after the war in May.
Quote:
The Palestinian Authority says it will spend $1.7 billion on Gaza this year
Quote:
Egypt pledged $500 million in aid after the May war
Quote:
Germany and other European countries will spend nearly 70 million euros ($80 million) on water projects in Gaza this year
Quote:
The U.S. has spent at least $5.5 million in Gaza this year on cash assistance and health care, in addition to contributing $90 million to UNRWA operations in Gaza and the occupied West Bank.
It's not $8.2 bn since 2014, but at least $3.8 bn from 2020-2021 (the article doesn't mention how much UN aid in 2021, so likely over $4 bn during that time frame).
You're comparison of Gaza to Texas students is also irrelevant because it doesn't capture cost of living adjustments, but you likely knew that.
But again, I'll ask a simple question...we've seen rally after rally in support of Palestine and Hamas. Where are the rally's to oust Hamas? They don't seem to be found anywhere.
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But then you always come so close to saying the quiet part out loud. You say there's nowhere to go and no one wants them. Don't you find that odd? All the muslim countries in the Middle East and no body wants them.
With the Syrian Crisis, millions of Syrians were relocated to other countries. Turkey alone took more Syrians in than all of Gaza...yet nobody wants anything to do with Gaza? Egypt was offered control of Gaza and said no and built walls. It's not like the people from Syria were materially better off than Gaza...so there's something else.
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And your take on the right and open borders is 100% different than this. No country is stepping up to take the citizens of Gaza as refuges from this war or the previous. Seems odd doesn't it?
Though rare, there was a recent protest against Hamas.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/thousands-take-to-streets-in-gaza-in-rare-public-protests-against-hamas/
Several thousand people briefly took to the streets across the Gaza Strip on Sunday to protest chronic power outages and difficult living conditions, in a rare public show of discontent with the territory's Hamas government. Hamas security forces quickly dispersed the gatherings.
Why aren't there more? Probably because Hamas uses terror and violence against the people. Extrajudicial killings of rivals is common.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/thousands-take-to-streets-in-gaza-in-rare-public-protests-against-hamas/
Several thousand people briefly took to the streets across the Gaza Strip on Sunday to protest chronic power outages and difficult living conditions, in a rare public show of discontent with the territory's Hamas government. Hamas security forces quickly dispersed the gatherings.
Why aren't there more? Probably because Hamas uses terror and violence against the people. Extrajudicial killings of rivals is common.
I added up the number in your article. If there's more, find a different article and adjust the numbers. The point is that they're a destitute group receiving welfare that puts them at poverty and much of it is confiscated by the ruling militant regime. You put the money out like it's some huge amount. It's not, considering they have no economy to speak of.
answer you own question. Why does no one want them? I gave my answer. Two million refugees at once is something no nation wants to take. Keep in mind half of the population of Jordan is already Palestinian refugees (against your "nobody wants them" rhetoric). Saudi is the example of realpolitik; Egypt is poor.
And even so, what do you do with that information? Assuming there's some unspoken reason nobody wants them (they suck? They are bad people?) Does that justify genocide?
Speak clearly here - what are you advocating?
answer you own question. Why does no one want them? I gave my answer. Two million refugees at once is something no nation wants to take. Keep in mind half of the population of Jordan is already Palestinian refugees (against your "nobody wants them" rhetoric). Saudi is the example of realpolitik; Egypt is poor.
And even so, what do you do with that information? Assuming there's some unspoken reason nobody wants them (they suck? They are bad people?) Does that justify genocide?
Speak clearly here - what are you advocating?
6 year old Palestinian kid and his mom were stabbed in their home yesterday. Kid was killed. Landlord apparently yelling "Muslims must die" or something like that.
Horrible people do horrible things.
Horrible people do horrible things.
Zobel said:
I added up the number in your article. If there's more, find a different article and adjust the numbers. The point is that they're a destitute group receiving welfare that puts them at poverty and much of it is confiscated by the ruling militant regime. You put the money out like it's some huge amount. It's not, considering they have no economy to speak of.
answer you own question. Why does no one want them? I gave my answer. Two million refugees at once is something no nation wants to take. Keep in mind half of the population of Jordan is already Palestinian refugees (against your "nobody wants them" rhetoric). Saudi is the example of realpolitik; Egypt is poor.
And even so, what do you do with that information? Assuming there's some unspoken reason nobody wants them (they suck? They are bad people?) Does that justify genocide?
Speak clearly here - what are you advocating?
It's ok to admit you didn't read the article and fudged the numbers. You're allowed to be wrong. I clearly showed exactly where and when the money was provided, per the article. That you spread it across years it was never intended to reflect is incorrect and you know it.
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You avoid the question still. Turkey took in over 3 million syrians. Other countries did as well.
Why has no country stepped up for Gaza? Egypt closed its borders and nobody wants them. You can avoid it all you want, but nobody has stepped up, when those same countries absolutely stepped up for other territories
Exhibit A:
UN Refugees
Quote:
After over a decade of conflict, Syria remains the world's largest refugee crisis. Since 2011, more than 14 million Syrians have been forced to flee their homes in search of safety. More than 6.8 million Syrians remain internally displaced in their own country where 70 percent of the population is in need of humanitarian assistance and 90 percent of the population live below the poverty line. Approximately 5.5 million Syrian refugees live in the five countries neighboring SyriaTrkiye, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq and Egypt. Germany is the largest non-neighboring host country with more than 850,000 Syrian refugees.
All these countries took in seemingly welfare and destitute citizens, yet in the case of Gaza...oddly, nobody is stepping up. What is different about the people of Gaza than elsewhere? Why do muslims, other than terrorist states like Iran, not want these people.
------------
Why am I advocating? Not genocide. I find it funny how quick you are to judge the worst in someone who disagrees with you.
What I'm advocating is that we speak truth about the situation and not whitewash it so we can feel good about it. Pretending that just giving them more aid or infrastructure is the way to solve this crisis is a fools dream. Real action is necessary and much of Gaza itself may not survive it. The people have been given the choice to leave and we can only hope that (1) hamas allows it and (2) the people heed that warning, or they may get their wish to meet God.
Pro Sandy said:
Though rare, there was a recent protest against Hamas.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/thousands-take-to-streets-in-gaza-in-rare-public-protests-against-hamas/
Several thousand people briefly took to the streets across the Gaza Strip on Sunday to protest chronic power outages and difficult living conditions, in a rare public show of discontent with the territory's Hamas government. Hamas security forces quickly dispersed the gatherings.
Why aren't there more? Probably because Hamas uses terror and violence against the people. Extrajudicial killings of rivals is common.
That's awesome and one more rally than I expected.
Now why are all the "pro-palestine" rallys globally right now also pro-Hamas rallys + anti-semitic?
Cornell University Professor Russell Rickford speaking about Hamas terrorist attacks. Shameful @Cornell. pic.twitter.com/xv1dTqGymy
— Sam Aberman (@samaberman) October 15, 2023
“COVER HIS CAMERA”
— Addison Smith (@AddisonSmithTV) October 15, 2023
Palestine supporters try to block my camera as they ASSAULT a pro-Israel woman by ripping her flag from her and stomping on it.
This happened in San Diego, CA pic.twitter.com/CK0mPNBoJ3
Breaking: As the Palestine London rally was dispersing on Whitehall, a group gathered and began chanting about Khaybar, referencing an Islamic story about Mohammed & his army mass slaughtering and expelling Jewish communities in Arabia. The translated chant is: "Khaybar, Khaybar,… pic.twitter.com/U3t9Bzk0gq
— Andy Ngô 🏳️🌈 (@MrAndyNgo) October 14, 2023
This one is probably the worst:
There you have it folks!
— Kat Kanada (@KatKanada_TM) October 15, 2023
“Hamas is not a terrorist group. Everything they do is justified.”
🤡🤡☠️
pic.twitter.com/VpqrXboOX5
And so on and so forth.
Where's the world stepping up? Instead, as Hamas predicts, we are already swiveling to "Israel needs to be humanitarian."
AgLiving06 said:
Where's the world stepping up?
Some 84 countries and nations have released statements supporting Israel, according to a list compiled by the Foreign Ministry.
Many of the countries, including the US, UK, Australia, France, Norway and Austria, have seen multiple political leaders issue statements condemning the attacks and backing Israel's right to self-defense.
Foreign Minister Eli Cohen has spoken with 17 foreign ministers, mostly from Europe, in the past 24 hours. He also held a briefing for foreign diplomats in Israel, and for Israeli diplomats abroad.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/foreign-ministry-says-84-countries-have-expressed-support-for-israel/
In an acknowledgment that an effort to boycott Starbucks is having an impact, the giant coffee chain has issued a cease-and-desist letter to a union representing about 9,000 of its baristas and other workers who have publicly sided with Palestinians after Hamas attacked Israel on October 7.
https://www.newsweek.com/starbucks-threatens-sue-union-that-expressed-support-palestine-over-israel-1835104
European leaders pledge support for Israel, condemn Hamas and halt Palestinian aid
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/09/1204662594/europe-condemn-hamas-support-israel-suspend-palestinian-aid
Yes, people support Palestine from the river to the sea. I don't. But wondering how people supporting Palestinians means we should allow genocide or forced relocation.
This thread has primarily focused on sirdippingdots support for genocide, going old testament, and forced relocation. That's why you get the response you do.AgLiving06 said:
Why am I advocating? Not genocide. I find it funny how quick you are to judge the worst in someone who disagrees with you.
We can speak freely of the subject of Israel and Palestine, I think we have. But understand the context has been in why genocide is or is not justified.
I literally added up all the numbers in your article, which begins "The international community has sent billions of dollars in aid to the Gaza Strip in recent years to provide relief".Quote:
It's ok to admit you didn't read the article and fudged the numbers. You're allowed to be wrong. I clearly showed exactly where and when the money was provided, per the article. That you spread it across years it was never intended to reflect is incorrect and you know it.
$4.5 bn from UN 2014-2020
$1.3 bn since 2012 from Qatar
$1.7 Bn in 2021 from Palestinian Authority
$500m in 2021 from Egypt
$80m from European countries
$95.5m from US
I rounded up to $8.2bn. If there's more money, point it out. I don't know what you want here. Sorry for reading your own source and accepting it at face value. This is a stupid argument.
I answered the question twice, you won't.Quote:
All these countries took in seemingly welfare and destitute citizens, yet in the case of Gaza...oddly, nobody is stepping up. What is different about the people of Gaza than elsewhere? Why do muslims, other than terrorist states like Iran, not want these people.
Because you responded to a post where I was responding to someone who has repeatedly called for forced relocation and softly supported genocide against them. If you don't want to be lumped in with him, don't jump up to his defense.Quote:
Why am I advocating? Not genocide. I find it funny how quick you are to judge the worst in someone who disagrees with you.
Who feels good about this situation? You're the one basically saying all of this is laid at the feet of the people who live in Gaza and its their fault because no one wants them for reasons you won't say.Quote:
What I'm advocating is that we speak truth about the situation and not whitewash it so we can feel good about it. Pretending that just giving them more aid or infrastructure is the way to solve this crisis is a fools dream. Real action is necessary and much of Gaza itself may not survive it. The people have been given the choice to leave and we can only hope that (1) hamas allows it and (2) the people heed that warning, or they may get their wish to meet God.
Who said the solution is to give more aid or infrastructure?
What does real action mean?
The people can't leave. They literally can't go anywhere.
Pro Sandy said:This thread has primarily focused on sirdippingdots support for genocide, going old testament, and forced relocation. That's why you get the response you do.AgLiving06 said:
Why am I advocating? Not genocide. I find it funny how quick you are to judge the worst in someone who disagrees with you.
We can speak freely of the subject of Israel and Palestine, I think we have. But understand the context has been in why genocide is or is not justified.
And I've never mentioned anything remotely of that nature in a single one of my posts.
But Zobel wants to make the accusation, that because I disagree with what he's said, I must support the premise of the OP. I must have some hidden agenda for disagreeing with him or you on this.
Dude, we explained to you why we both thought you were advocating for sirdippingdots position, because that has been what this thread and others as been about.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:This thread has primarily focused on sirdippingdots support for genocide, going old testament, and forced relocation. That's why you get the response you do.AgLiving06 said:
Why am I advocating? Not genocide. I find it funny how quick you are to judge the worst in someone who disagrees with you.
We can speak freely of the subject of Israel and Palestine, I think we have. But understand the context has been in why genocide is or is not justified.
And I've never mentioned anything remotely of that nature in a single one of my posts.
But Zobel wants to make the accusation, that because I disagree with what he's said, I must support the premise of the OP. I must have some hidden agenda for disagreeing with him or you on this.
If you want to talk about something other than why genocide is or isn't justified, probably should start a new thread to avoid confusion with the OPs position.
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