BonfireNerd04 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Since when does anyone have an obligation to provide services to a city they're at war with?

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Fourth Geneva Convention speaks of protecting civilians. Can't target civilian infrastructure unless absolute military objective, can't collectively punish people, and can't forcibly evict entire populations. All solutions that have been proposed here.

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So then, do you believe that the US and UK committed war crimes during WW2?

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Pro Sandy said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Since when does anyone have an obligation to provide services to a city they're at war with?

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Fourth Geneva Convention speaks of protecting civilians. Can't target civilian infrastructure unless absolute military objective, can't collectively punish people, and can't forcibly evict entire populations. All solutions that have been proposed here.

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So then, do you believe that the US and UK committed war crimes during WW2?

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Yeah, that's pretty given that the indiscriminately bombing of cities was a violation of Hague Convention.

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Pro Sandy said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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But forcing everyone in Gaza to leave won't give Israel security either.

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Well, not if they're kept segregated. But if they could be integrated into their destination countries, the way that German expellees were integrated into German society, then it would work.

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It won't. The Islamists don't want a land or to be integrated. They want the entire Holy Land. Islamist philosophy must be defeated.

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OK. How do you defeat it without "ethnic cleansing"?

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We defeated al Qaeda. Without ethnic cleansing. Didn't even force all Afghanis to leave their homes.

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Pro Sandy said:

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It may very well be a valid military target, but if Israel doesn't allow international aid into southern Gaza, world opinion won't hold with them beyond a few weeks

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AgLiving06 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Since when does anyone have an obligation to provide services to a city they're at war with?

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Fourth Geneva Convention speaks of protecting civilians. Can't target civilian infrastructure unless absolute military objective, can't collectively punish people, and can't forcibly evict entire populations. All solutions that have been proposed here.

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You're grasping for straws on this one.

If there is anybody violating the Fourth geneva Conventions, it's Hamas, who is:

1. Hiding military equipment in civilian buildings.
2. Using civilians as shields (including jewish babys

Israel choosing not to continue to provide free aid to Gaza is not a violation. In fact, the right question you should be asking is why has Hamas done nothing to improve infrastructure in 20 years?

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Oh, I didn't use any of that as an attack on what Israel is doing, but addressing the question about civilians.

If Israel doesn't allow foreign aid to come in, world opinion will turn. That doesn't need Geneva Convention, that's just the way world opinion works.

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So you're using hypotheticals...Ok.

But the reality, and not hypothetical is Hamas is hiding it's military behind civilians, stopping civilians from leaving in hopes they die, stealing aid from civilians, and using civilians at shields....

and yet, I don't see anybody here or in the world screaming about "Fourth Geneva Convention" at Hamas...

Seems odd so many only want to point fingers at Israel instead of the group committing real war crimes...

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Pro Sandy said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Since when does anyone have an obligation to provide services to a city they're at war with?

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Fourth Geneva Convention speaks of protecting civilians. Can't target civilian infrastructure unless absolute military objective, can't collectively punish people, and can't forcibly evict entire populations. All solutions that have been proposed here.

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You're grasping for straws on this one.

If there is anybody violating the Fourth geneva Conventions, it's Hamas, who is:

1. Hiding military equipment in civilian buildings.
2. Using civilians as shields (including jewish babys

Israel choosing not to continue to provide free aid to Gaza is not a violation. In fact, the right question you should be asking is why has Hamas done nothing to improve infrastructure in 20 years?

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Oh, I didn't use any of that as an attack on what Israel is doing, but addressing the question about civilians.

If Israel doesn't allow foreign aid to come in, world opinion will turn. That doesn't need Geneva Convention, that's just the way world opinion works.

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So you're using hypotheticals...Ok.

But the reality, and not hypothetical is Hamas is hiding it's military behind civilians, stopping civilians from leaving in hopes they die, stealing aid from civilians, and using civilians at shields....

and yet, I don't see anybody here or in the world screaming about "Fourth Geneva Convention" at Hamas...

Seems odd so many only want to point fingers at Israel instead of the group committing real war crimes...

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Hamas is evil. The way they fight is horrendous and illegal. They should be completely destroyed.

It is also true that the OPs and others desire to commit genocide, "go old testament" or evict all people who are not Israeli from Gaza is wrong in that it will not achieve desired objectives and is immoral and illegal.

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SirDippinDots said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Since when does anyone have an obligation to provide services to a city they're at war with?

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Fourth Geneva Convention speaks of protecting civilians. Can't target civilian infrastructure unless absolute military objective, can't collectively punish people, and can't forcibly evict entire populations. All solutions that have been proposed here.

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You're grasping for straws on this one.

If there is anybody violating the Fourth geneva Conventions, it's Hamas, who is:

1. Hiding military equipment in civilian buildings.
2. Using civilians as shields (including jewish babys

Israel choosing not to continue to provide free aid to Gaza is not a violation. In fact, the right question you should be asking is why has Hamas done nothing to improve infrastructure in 20 years?

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Oh, I didn't use any of that as an attack on what Israel is doing, but addressing the question about civilians.

If Israel doesn't allow foreign aid to come in, world opinion will turn. That doesn't need Geneva Convention, that's just the way world opinion works.

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So you're using hypotheticals...Ok.

But the reality, and not hypothetical is Hamas is hiding it's military behind civilians, stopping civilians from leaving in hopes they die, stealing aid from civilians, and using civilians at shields....

and yet, I don't see anybody here or in the world screaming about "Fourth Geneva Convention" at Hamas...

Seems odd so many only want to point fingers at Israel instead of the group committing real war crimes...

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Hamas is evil. The way they fight is horrendous and illegal. They should be completely destroyed.

It is also true that the OPs and others desire to commit genocide, "go old testament" or evict all people who are not Israeli from Gaza is wrong in that it will not achieve desired objectives and is immoral and illegal.

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So Hamas is evil and should be destroyed most of us agree.

But then what is the real world solution? Non of us is God and can just will it to happen.

There is no real world solution that Israel can do other than what they are doing. Every real world solution has the left on this board crying genocide because according to the left forced relocation now constitutes genocide.

The Palestinians elected Hamas. The Palestinians are Hamas and those that are not part of it take no action to end it either because they somewhat support it or are too afraid….. which is understandable.

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So was God immoral when he destroyed Soddom and Gomorrah, commanded the Jews to destroy all the Caananites to the last woman and child, drowned an entire Egyptian army, killed all the innocent first born sons of a nation to make a point.....the list goes on and on....be careful ur toeing the line of judging God.

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So your faith is placed in man for solutions to this matter and not God? How's that working out?

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Zobel said:

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Israel - somewhat to their own surprise - got most of the way through the process of driving the Arabs from the territory, and lacked either the fortitude or the international support to finish the job. They've forced millions of people to live in what amounts to a city-sized internment camp with no resources, no food, no water. Most of these people have no means to make a living, they can't leave. They have no hope. They've never known anything else.

The people living in Gaza are about as responsible for Hamas as a leadership organization as inmates in prison are for electing the gangs that rule there. It's not the US, these are not people with actual political agency.

This does not excuse terrorism or murder, but it does explain it. Desperate people who feel they have no hope, no future, and nothing to lose do desperate, stupid things. When you surround an enemy and leave them no avenue of retreat, they will fight to the death. That's exactly what is happening here, playing out in slow motion.

This is a tragedy, and a tragic outcome was guaranteed decades ago. We should be careful who we support and who we condemn. You and I have no control over the actions of either side - so our moral culpability is confined to the opinions we express and the limited actions we do take. We should not advocate for evil.

To make it clear - the terrorists are practicing evil and I have no problem condemning them. Your broad brush approach is what I take issue with.

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Zobel said:

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Your AP article sums up a total of $8.2 bn from 2014-2021. Roughly 2.3 million people live in the Gaza strip. That comes out to around $3600 per person. Texas spends around $6000 per student on education alone. Houston is spending $12bn on roads - just roads - over the next three years. What about these numbers seem like amazing largesse to you?

None of this changes the facts on the ground that the Gaza strip is an area with no natural resources, is wholly dependent on the outside for energy, food, and water, and as a result has little to no economic productivity. The average monthly wage is $2500, and unemployment is around 50%...down from 80% two years ago. They can't leave. There is nowhere for them to go.

All of these signs point to Hamas - described in your link as an Islamic militant group who seized power - as a cartel who holds power, and uses that power to terrorize both Israeli and the Gaza strip, along with imposing taxation and diverting funds toward militant ends.

As to why no one wants them? The same reason most of the same people on the Right in this country aren't proponents of open borders policies. Refugees disrupt local labor patterns, are often poor and bring crime, and other trouble. Nevermind reasons realpolitik - as long as they remain a thorn in the side of Israel, that benefits Israel's enemies.

And that doesn't even get into how we got here in the first place. The world didn't begin in 2006.

Edit to add - even if you were perfectly correct, it still doesn't justify genocide. Hope that helps.

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From 2014-2020, U.N. agencies spent nearly $4.5 billion in Gaza, including $600 million in 2020 alone

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That includes $360 million pledged in January for 2021 and another $500 million pledged for reconstruction after the war in May.

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The Palestinian Authority says it will spend $1.7 billion on Gaza this year

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Egypt pledged $500 million in aid after the May war

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Germany and other European countries will spend nearly 70 million euros ($80 million) on water projects in Gaza this year

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The U.S. has spent at least $5.5 million in Gaza this year on cash assistance and health care, in addition to contributing $90 million to UNRWA operations in Gaza and the occupied West Bank.

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Zobel said:

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I added up the number in your article. If there's more, find a different article and adjust the numbers. The point is that they're a destitute group receiving welfare that puts them at poverty and much of it is confiscated by the ruling militant regime. You put the money out like it's some huge amount. It's not, considering they have no economy to speak of.

answer you own question. Why does no one want them? I gave my answer. Two million refugees at once is something no nation wants to take. Keep in mind half of the population of Jordan is already Palestinian refugees (against your "nobody wants them" rhetoric). Saudi is the example of realpolitik; Egypt is poor.

And even so, what do you do with that information? Assuming there's some unspoken reason nobody wants them (they suck? They are bad people?) Does that justify genocide?

Speak clearly here - what are you advocating?

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After over a decade of conflict, Syria remains the world's largest refugee crisis. Since 2011, more than 14 million Syrians have been forced to flee their homes in search of safety. More than 6.8 million Syrians remain internally displaced in their own country where 70 percent of the population is in need of humanitarian assistance and 90 percent of the population live below the poverty line. Approximately 5.5 million Syrian refugees live in the five countries neighboring SyriaTrkiye, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq and Egypt. Germany is the largest non-neighboring host country with more than 850,000 Syrian refugees.

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AgLiving06 said:

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Where's the world stepping up?

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AgLiving06 said:

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Why am I advocating? Not genocide. I find it funny how quick you are to judge the worst in someone who disagrees with you.

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It's ok to admit you didn't read the article and fudged the numbers. You're allowed to be wrong. I clearly showed exactly where and when the money was provided, per the article. That you spread it across years it was never intended to reflect is incorrect and you know it.

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All these countries took in seemingly welfare and destitute citizens, yet in the case of Gaza...oddly, nobody is stepping up. What is different about the people of Gaza than elsewhere? Why do muslims, other than terrorist states like Iran, not want these people.

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Why am I advocating? Not genocide. I find it funny how quick you are to judge the worst in someone who disagrees with you.

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What I'm advocating is that we speak truth about the situation and not whitewash it so we can feel good about it. Pretending that just giving them more aid or infrastructure is the way to solve this crisis is a fools dream. Real action is necessary and much of Gaza itself may not survive it. The people have been given the choice to leave and we can only hope that (1) hamas allows it and (2) the people heed that warning, or they may get their wish to meet God.

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AgLiving06 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Why am I advocating? Not genocide. I find it funny how quick you are to judge the worst in someone who disagrees with you.

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This thread has primarily focused on sirdippingdots support for genocide, going old testament, and forced relocation. That's why you get the response you do.

We can speak freely of the subject of Israel and Palestine, I think we have. But understand the context has been in why genocide is or is not justified.

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And I've never mentioned anything remotely of that nature in a single one of my posts.

But Zobel wants to make the accusation, that because I disagree with what he's said, I must support the premise of the OP. I must have some hidden agenda for disagreeing with him or you on this.

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