Sapper Redux said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Atheists hate everyone except Jews. Everyone hates Mormons except Catholics. Jews hate evangelicals more than Muslims and love atheists. What an interesting survey.

edit: I assume the Jew & atheist bromance is largely because a large number of Jews are atheist?

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Atheists aren't generally running around trying to convert Jews or claiming to be the real Jews/Israel or attempting to use Jews as a pawn in their eschatology. The numbers in the U.S. for Jews are essentially, "who leaves us alone the most."

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I think there is truth to this. Also, I'm an atheist who married an atheist Jew. . . . so take me with a grain of salt.

kurt vonnegut said:

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atheist Jew

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Sapper Redux said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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atheist Jew

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Ethnoreligion.

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I'm convinced that most evangelicals have never been around real normal Jewish people (who are cosmopolitan and clustered in urban areas, and have varying degrees of practice) and as a result have no reference point other than reading the Old Testament.

The idea that Jewish people can't be atheist would be a big surprise to most Jews in both Israel and America.

Sapper Redux said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Atheists hate everyone except Jews. Everyone hates Mormons except Catholics. Jews hate evangelicals more than Muslims and love atheists. What an interesting survey.

edit: I assume the Jew & atheist bromance is largely because a large number of Jews are atheist?

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Atheists aren't generally running around trying to convert Jews or claiming to be the real Jews/Israel or attempting to use Jews as a pawn in their eschatology. The numbers in the U.S. for Jews are essentially, "who leaves us alone the most."

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Why do y'all hate Catholics more than mainline Protestants and Muslims?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Atheists hate everyone except Jews. Everyone hates Mormons except Catholics. Jews hate evangelicals more than Muslims and love atheists. What an interesting survey.

edit: I assume the Jew & atheist bromance is largely because a large number of Jews are atheist?

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Atheists aren't generally running around trying to convert Jews or claiming to be the real Jews/Israel or attempting to use Jews as a pawn in their eschatology. The numbers in the U.S. for Jews are essentially, "who leaves us alone the most."

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Why do y'all hate Catholics more than mainline Protestants and Muslims?

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If we are referring to the Jewish race as opposed to the Jewish religion how does that even make sense? The other categories, Muslim, Christian,… are religions.

It makes sense because Jew or Jewish is nowhere in my question.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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It makes sense because Jew or Jewish is nowhere in my question.

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My question was more in regards to the survey. Was the survey referring to the Jewish religion or the Jewish race?

I assume however the respondent self identified.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Atheists hate everyone except Jews. Everyone hates Mormons except Catholics. Jews hate evangelicals more than Muslims and love atheists. What an interesting survey.

edit: I assume the Jew & atheist bromance is largely because a large number of Jews are atheist?

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Atheists aren't generally running around trying to convert Jews or claiming to be the real Jews/Israel or attempting to use Jews as a pawn in their eschatology. The numbers in the U.S. for Jews are essentially, "who leaves us alone the most."

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Why do y'all hate Catholics more than mainline Protestants and Muslims?

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First, I don't think that hate is the correct word. Just as I don't think it would be fair for me to impose the word 'hate' on any worldview that you see unfavorably. As far as I can tell, the Pew survey didn't use that word.

The reason why I agreed with Sapper's post above is because I think it plays a role in the question you've just asked. As an atheist in the US, I feel relatively unaffected by the goings on of certain Protestants and Muslims in my daily life. Catholics, maybe I'm more affected by. And Evangelicals, most affected by. I wonder if the Pew survey is less revealing about how much each group approves or disproves of each other's belief and more about how much each group feels impacted by the other.

In that sense - 76% of atheists having a negative view of Evangelicals and 40% of Evangelicals having a negative view of atheist might NOT be simply reducible to the statement 'atheists are more hateful'. It may be that more atheists feel negatively affected by Evangelicals than the other way around.

I also doubt that the average atheist / non religious person could offer a very deep or meaningful doctrinal narrative on the differences between Protestantism and Catholicism, let alone the major differences within Protestantism. But, certainly, the perception is going to be that Evangelical protestants are making more effort to impose value on others than the Lutherans and Methodists. Right? Even if you disagree with how I've phrased this, there is certainly the perception that the Evangelical wing of Protestantism is far more interested in political activism.

Personally, I don't have blanket hate for any of these groups. If you asked me to list groups of Christians in order of favorability based on their beliefs and values, I'd have a lot of trouble ranking anyone higher or lower than anyone else. Not because I don't recognize that there are differences. And not because I don't recognize that some of these groups may be closer to my beliefs than others. But because, I have more of a philosophical objection to tying a favorability rating to a group of people based on their sincere and well intentioned beliefs. For example, I think Islam is a false religion. But, who am I to denigrate someone for a sincere and well intentioned belief in that religion. I'm not God, I don't know the truth. We're all just trying our best, right?

But, if you asked me to order religions based on which group I find generally cooperative or tolerant or accepting of my values, then my answers would look a lot like the Pew list. The Methodists and Jews aren't out buying up politicians to impose moral restrictions on me the same way as Evangelicals. And of course, I think this explanation is consistent with some of the unfavorability against atheists insomuch as there is also a contingent of secularists in this country that also want to impose some moral value against the religious.

I have only met two real atheists in my life. Both are remarkable people. My opinion is that most people are not intelligent enough to be an atheist. I've met a whole bunch of people angry at life and the world who claim to be atheists.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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I'm not aware of better words than love/hate to describe "feel positively/negatively toward..." It's generally not a good look when your whole row is dark blue except for yourself.

As far as imposition of beliefs, academia, Hollywood, and the media (those outlets that impose values in our society) are all over-represented by Jews/atheists. Even a Catholic President pushes agendas completely opposite of his religion. But there is still a "negative feeling" toward religious people. I'm not sure what else atheists could possibly dream of other than adopting Marxism with the complete eradication of religious beliefs.

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Do you have feel favorably toward atheism? If the answer is no, does that mean you hate me?

Are there parts of our society that are over-represented by Christians and are in a position to impose values? Or do we live in a society where the only people that impose values are atheists and Jews? You make it sound like America is atheist Utopia.

Scoopen Skwert said:

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I have only met two real atheists in my life. Both are remarkable people. My opinion is that most people are not intelligent enough to be an atheist. I've met a whole bunch of people angry at life and the world who claim to be atheists.

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Unless I grossly misunderstand it, I don't think the third sentence is fair at all.

10andBOUNCE said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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atheist Jew

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Think of an Irish Catholic.

If he becomes an atheist, he's no longer Catholic, but he's still Irish.

Similarly, a Jew who becomes an atheist is still a Jew. Probably in terms of cultural identity. But importantly, that if he ever changes his mind and decides to start attending synagogue and keeping Shabbat, he's not expected to go through a conversion process, because Torah stipulates "Once a Jew, always a Jew."

It can be confusing because the word "Jewish" doesn't distinguish between ethnically-Jewish and religiously-Jewish. In contrast to "Irish Catholic" versus "Irish atheist", where there are different words.

Anyhow, back to the topic of Gaza and Trump's plan for it.

The last US President who agreed to a major forced population transfer was Harry Truman, who (perhaps reluctantly) participated in the Potsdam Conference's decision to make the Oder-Neisse Line the eastern border of Germany, and expel the Germans from that land, as well as the Czech Sudetenland and other Eastern European German enclaves.

Was that "ethnic cleansing", or a justified response to German atrocities during the war?

Zobel said:

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literally how Christianity works

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There's no "Christian people" and Christianity is not linked to a specific group or tribe.

Zobel said:

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"you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light."

" He gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds."

Sorry but it's is an explicit teaching.

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Except that's not the same thing. Christianity is explicitly not an ethnoreligion. One can't be an atheist Christian. An atheist Jew can easily exist. Christians are separately Irish or Italian or Kenyan. You can't be a religious Jew and be apart from the Jewish people as a nation/tribe.

Well, properly speaking the Christian nations became something new when they became Christian. You couldn't be a pagan Greek and a Christian Greek. You stopped being one to become the other. The fact that some people stop being Christian actually does make them something else again. Just like there are cultural Jews, there are cultural Christians.

The teaching of Christianity as a distinct ethnos or people is a fundamental claim of Christianity.

And it is the exact same thing because St Peter quotes the same verse to Christians about their people-hood that was Moses speaking to Israel about their people-hood. If one is true, so is the other.

Zobel said:

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Well, properly speaking the Christian nations became something new when they became Christian. You couldn't be a pagan Greek and a Christian Greek. You stopped being one to become the other. The fact that some people stop being Christian actually does make them something else again. Just like there are cultural Jews, there are cultural Christians.

The teaching of Christianity as a distinct ethnos or people is a fundamental claim of Christianity.

And it is the exact same thing because St Peter quotes the same verse to Christians about their people-hood that was Moses speaking to Israel about their people-hood. If one is true, so is the other.

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But you were still absolutely a Greek. You didn't leave the Greek people and become a Christian. You just became a Christian Greek. To become a Jew means leaving one people/nation and becoming a member of the Jewish people. This is a category beyond just religion and is much more all-encompassing as well as a much more ancient notion of what makes a nation and a national faith. Saying Christians are distinct in their faith is very different from joining one cohesive polity that encompasses culture, theology, language, etc… Just quoting the same verse doesn't mean it's actually the same thing in reality. It's a callback, but far from the same.

They actually stopped being Greek. They became something entirely new. Kind of a major theme of the New Testament. And that new thing was a common people. More like the distinction between tribe than nation, Judah vs Benjamin. But all Israel.

Zobel said:

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They actually stopped being Greek. They became something entirely new. Kind of a major theme of the New Testament. And that new thing was a common people. More like the distinction between tribe than nation, Judah vs Benjamin. But all Israel.

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No. They didn't become "all new." They kept their language, food, traditions, etc. They adopted a new religion which was integrated into their existing culture. Absolutely changed major aspects of the communities, but there is not a unitary "Christian people" as an overarching ethnicity / nation. That's simple enough to see in the multiple divisions of Christianity and even within groups like Orthodoxy. It's not the same as the Jewish people and the role of theology and religion within Judaism. I'm not sure if you just are ignorant of Jews or desperate to assume the mantle of "real Jew," but it's not the same thing.

You're ignorant. It's fine.

A Russian Jew is a?
A Greek Jew is a?
A German Jew is a?


A Russian Christian is a?
A Greek Christian is a?
A German Christian is a?


A German Christian and a Greek Christian are no more different than an Israelite and a Judahite before the fall of the northern kingdom.

I'm not a Jew because I'm not a Judaean. I am an Israelite.

Okay, so you don't get the difference between Judaism and Christianity. Got it. A Russian Jew is culturally, ethnically, and religiously a Jew who lives in Russia. A Russian Christian is culturally and ethnically Russian while religiously Christian. And unless you have Canaanite DNA, you're not a member of the "lost tribes" either.

Yes I am.

You have theological supersessionism. It's not an ethnoreligion.

Swing and a miss. Never said anything about replacing.

You're ignorant.

"Not all who are of Israel are Israel."

Zobel said:

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Swing and a miss. Never said anything about replacing.

You're ignorant.

"Not all who are of Israel are Israel."

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Your claims are supersessionism. Whether you acknowledge it as such or not. And you make the oddest combinations of ethnic heritage and theological/metaphysical claims when it suits you. Nothing about Christianity as a religion is ethnoreligious.

They're not, whether you understand that or not, regardless of your incredible arrogance to explain my faith to me. Ignorance and arrogance are a funny combination.

It's a combination you have in spades. Yes, your claims are by definition supersessionism. Just own it. And to whine about me while your own grasp of Judaism is so apparently weak is amazing.