Well, that would imply owing Nazi Germany an apology for the WW2 bombings and postwar expulsions, so no, I do not agree.Quote:
Do you agree that we should not indiscriminately target civilians, or expel or people based on their ethnicity or faith?
The innocent Palestinians we should weap for.
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Last: 1 yr ago by BonfireNerd04
Who cares about an apology?
It boggles the mind that some kind of stupid nationalistic pride is the reason you can't agree that indiscriminately targeting civilians is bad.
To avoid apologies to African Americans, do you think slavery is A-ok?
It boggles the mind that some kind of stupid nationalistic pride is the reason you can't agree that indiscriminately targeting civilians is bad.
To avoid apologies to African Americans, do you think slavery is A-ok?
I still don't understand how advocates of ethnic cleansing and genocide aren't banned.
This site is an absolute disaster sometimes.
This site is an absolute disaster sometimes.
I'm with you 100% it is disgraceful
I think the people that should be banned are those that advocate a position of doing nothing in Gaza which causes Jews to be raped, slaughtered and kidnapped should be banned.
Not a single person on this thread has advocated this.SirDippinDots said:
I think the people that should be banned are those that advocate a position of doing nothing in Gaza which causes Jews to be raped, slaughtered and kidnapped should be banned.
False dichotomy. There are more options that do nothing and ethnic cleansing. And between the two, do nothing is better than active immorality.
You're at best being naive. Some enemies cannot be reasoned with and will only understand overwhelming force.
Imagine if the Allies had let off the Third Reich with a slap on the wrist. That ethnic Germans were allowed to remain in Poland, the Sudetenland, etc. That the NSDAP was allowed to remain in power. And that for decades, Germany had been firing missiles at Polish, Czech, and Lithuanian towns.
What the hell would you expect the other countries to do? Just sit back and take it? Or fight back hard?
Imagine if the Allies had let off the Third Reich with a slap on the wrist. That ethnic Germans were allowed to remain in Poland, the Sudetenland, etc. That the NSDAP was allowed to remain in power. And that for decades, Germany had been firing missiles at Polish, Czech, and Lithuanian towns.
What the hell would you expect the other countries to do? Just sit back and take it? Or fight back hard?
jkag89 said:Not a single person on this thread has advocated this.SirDippinDots said:
I think the people that should be banned are those that advocate a position of doing nothing in Gaza which causes Jews to be raped, slaughtered and kidnapped should be banned.
How should Israel deal with it? Tell me. Turn the other cheek?
Engage military targets. Don't engage in indiscriminate attacks against civilians.
Overwhelming force doesn't include indiscriminate attacks. Collateral damage is a reality, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be minimized.
All you're doing is giving excuses.
Overwhelming force doesn't include indiscriminate attacks. Collateral damage is a reality, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be minimized.
All you're doing is giving excuses.
Israel has already tried "doing nothing", and it didn't work.Zobel said:
False dichotomy. There are more options that do nothing and ethnic cleansing. And between the two, do nothing is better than active immorality.
I didn't say doing nothing is what they should do, I said it's better than ethnic cleansing. Which is an admittedly low bar, but apparently an insurmountable hurdle for some people in this thread.
Where have I stated Israel should not defend itself? There is a huge difference in appropriate military response against Hamas and lets forcibly deport everyone.SirDippinDots said:jkag89 said:Not a single person on this thread has advocated this.SirDippinDots said:
I think the people that should be banned are those that advocate a position of doing nothing in Gaza which causes Jews to be raped, slaughtered and kidnapped should be banned.
How should Israel deal with it? Tell me. Turn the other cheek?
OK, that's a reasonable position.Zobel said:
Engage military targets. Don't engage in indiscriminate attacks against civilians.
Overwhelming force doesn't include indiscriminate attacks. Collateral damage is a reality, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be minimized.
All you're doing is giving excuses.
But understand that avoiding collateral damage is hard, especially when one of the combatants insists on storing weapons caches adjacent to hospitals or schools.
jkag89 said:Where have I stated Israel should not defend itself? There is a huge difference in appropriate military response against Hamas and lets forcibly deport everyone.SirDippinDots said:jkag89 said:Not a single person on this thread has advocated this.SirDippinDots said:
I think the people that should be banned are those that advocate a position of doing nothing in Gaza which causes Jews to be raped, slaughtered and kidnapped should be banned.
How should Israel deal with it? Tell me. Turn the other cheek?
So tell me what are these other magic options that will protect the Jews?
And when that happens, those deaths are on Hamas.
Glad we can agree on that.
Glad we can agree on that.
Just because I don't have a solution does it make immoral ones suddenly moral.SirDippinDots said:jkag89 said:Where have I stated Israel should not defend itself? There is a huge difference in appropriate military response against Hamas and lets forcibly deport everyone.SirDippinDots said:jkag89 said:Not a single person on this thread has advocated this.SirDippinDots said:
I think the people that should be banned are those that advocate a position of doing nothing in Gaza which causes Jews to be raped, slaughtered and kidnapped should be banned.
How should Israel deal with it? Tell me. Turn the other cheek?
So tell me what are these other magic options that will protect the Jews?
jkag89 said:Just because I don't have a solution does it make immoral ones suddenly moral.SirDippinDots said:jkag89 said:Where have I stated Israel should not defend itself? There is a huge difference in appropriate military response against Hamas and lets forcibly deport everyone.SirDippinDots said:jkag89 said:Not a single person on this thread has advocated this.SirDippinDots said:
I think the people that should be banned are those that advocate a position of doing nothing in Gaza which causes Jews to be raped, slaughtered and kidnapped should be banned.
How should Israel deal with it? Tell me. Turn the other cheek?
So tell me what are these other magic options that will protect the Jews?
You said there were options that were not so extreme but now you admit you can't name one. Lol. Let's just criticize Israel.
BonfireNerd04 said:OK, that's a reasonable position.Zobel said:
Engage military targets. Don't engage in indiscriminate attacks against civilians.
Overwhelming force doesn't include indiscriminate attacks. Collateral damage is a reality, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be minimized.
All you're doing is giving excuses.
But understand that avoiding collateral damage is hard, especially when one of the combatants insists on storing weapons caches adjacent to hospitals or schools.
Every death in this war is the fault of Hamas.
But the truth is, Hamas doesn't care if Palestinians die. They would sacrifice every single one of them if it meant the death of Israel.
I'm not criticizing Israel, I'm criticizing your overall solution to the problem. I stated appropriate military responses to root out Hamas. How this can be done with the minimum of collateral damage to civilians is beyond me, I'm not a military tactician.SirDippinDots said:jkag89 said:Just because I don't have a solution does it make immoral ones suddenly moral.SirDippinDots said:jkag89 said:Where have I stated Israel should not defend itself? There is a huge difference in appropriate military response against Hamas and lets forcibly deport everyone.SirDippinDots said:jkag89 said:Not a single person on this thread has advocated this.SirDippinDots said:
I think the people that should be banned are those that advocate a position of doing nothing in Gaza which causes Jews to be raped, slaughtered and kidnapped should be banned.
How should Israel deal with it? Tell me. Turn the other cheek?
So tell me what are these other magic options that will protect the Jews?
You said there were options that were not so extreme but now you admit you can't name one. Lol. Let's just criticize Israel.
Again just because I don't have all the answers does it make an immoral act moral. Your approach is akin to using abortion to deal with Downs Syndrome.
Israel didn't do nothing, they've had Gaza under continuous blockades since 2007, resulting in 50 percent of the population of Gaza being unemployed, 65 percent living below the poverty line, and only 17,000 of 2.3 million people are allowed to seek work in Israel.BonfireNerd04 said:Israel has already tried "doing nothing", and it didn't work.Zobel said:
False dichotomy. There are more options that do nothing and ethnic cleansing. And between the two, do nothing is better than active immorality.
The open air prison solution for Gaza hasn't worked at keeping Israel safe.
Don't they also have a border with Egypt? How many Gazans are allowed to seek work there?Pro Sandy said:Israel didn't do nothing, they've had Gaza under continuous blockades since 2007, resulting in 50 percent of the population of Gaza being unemployed, 65 percent living below the poverty line, and only 17,000 of 2.3 million people are allowed to seek work in Israel.BonfireNerd04 said:Israel has already tried "doing nothing", and it didn't work.Zobel said:
False dichotomy. There are more options that do nothing and ethnic cleansing. And between the two, do nothing is better than active immorality.
The open air prison solution for Gaza hasn't worked at keeping Israel safe.
Egypt has had it blockaded too.BonfireNerd04 said:Don't they also have a border with Egypt? How many Gazans are allowed to seek work there?Pro Sandy said:Israel didn't do nothing, they've had Gaza under continuous blockades since 2007, resulting in 50 percent of the population of Gaza being unemployed, 65 percent living below the poverty line, and only 17,000 of 2.3 million people are allowed to seek work in Israel.BonfireNerd04 said:Israel has already tried "doing nothing", and it didn't work.Zobel said:
False dichotomy. There are more options that do nothing and ethnic cleansing. And between the two, do nothing is better than active immorality.
The open air prison solution for Gaza hasn't worked at keeping Israel safe.
And Israel still isn't safe
Pro Sandy said:Israel didn't do nothing, they've had Gaza under continuous blockades since 2007, resulting in 50 percent of the population of Gaza being unemployed, 65 percent living below the poverty line, and only 17,000 of 2.3 million people are allowed to seek work in Israel.BonfireNerd04 said:Israel has already tried "doing nothing", and it didn't work.Zobel said:
False dichotomy. There are more options that do nothing and ethnic cleansing. And between the two, do nothing is better than active immorality.
The open air prison solution for Gaza hasn't worked at keeping Israel safe.
So we aren't going to mention that Egypt has also blockaded Gaza since Hamas took over, and at this moment refuses to accept Palestinians from Gaza.
Maybe we should consider why it's not just the Jews, but other Muslims who want nothing to do with Gaza.
Or maybe we ask why it's an open air prison...Maybe wonder what happened to the water pipes that were installed?
Gaza is in this situation because it chose Hamas. You want Gaza to improve, Hamas and it's supporters need to be removed from the field.
Egypt blockade is mentioned! Read the posts before yours.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Israel didn't do nothing, they've had Gaza under continuous blockades since 2007, resulting in 50 percent of the population of Gaza being unemployed, 65 percent living below the poverty line, and only 17,000 of 2.3 million people are allowed to seek work in Israel.BonfireNerd04 said:Israel has already tried "doing nothing", and it didn't work.Zobel said:
False dichotomy. There are more options that do nothing and ethnic cleansing. And between the two, do nothing is better than active immorality.
The open air prison solution for Gaza hasn't worked at keeping Israel safe.
So we aren't going to mention that Egypt has also blockaded Gaza since Hamas took over, and at this moment refuses to accept Palestinians from Gaza.
Maybe we should consider why it's not just the Jews, but other Muslims who want nothing to do with Gaza.
Or maybe we ask why it's an open air prison...Maybe wonder what happened to the water pipes that were installed?
Gaza is in this situation because it chose Hamas. You want Gaza to improve, Hamas and it's supporters need to be removed from the field.
You are right on a lot of those things. And it shows that the OPs desire to just relocate people and fence them in won't work. Not only is it immoral to have forced relocation of a people, it doesn't provide Israel with security.
We haven't had a good attempt at peace in over 20 years. Arafat ruined the peace attempts and things have only gotten worse on both sides at an attempt for peace. It isn't coming soon even with the needed destruction of Hamas. But forcing everyone in Gaza to leave won't give Israel security either.
and for those worried about Christians in Palestine, Egypt isn't a particularly easy place for Christians there either.
Pro Sandy said:Egypt blockade is mentioned! Read the posts before yours.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Israel didn't do nothing, they've had Gaza under continuous blockades since 2007, resulting in 50 percent of the population of Gaza being unemployed, 65 percent living below the poverty line, and only 17,000 of 2.3 million people are allowed to seek work in Israel.BonfireNerd04 said:Israel has already tried "doing nothing", and it didn't work.Zobel said:
False dichotomy. There are more options that do nothing and ethnic cleansing. And between the two, do nothing is better than active immorality.
The open air prison solution for Gaza hasn't worked at keeping Israel safe.
So we aren't going to mention that Egypt has also blockaded Gaza since Hamas took over, and at this moment refuses to accept Palestinians from Gaza.
Maybe we should consider why it's not just the Jews, but other Muslims who want nothing to do with Gaza.
Or maybe we ask why it's an open air prison...Maybe wonder what happened to the water pipes that were installed?
Gaza is in this situation because it chose Hamas. You want Gaza to improve, Hamas and it's supporters need to be removed from the field.
You are right on a lot of those things. And it shows that the OPs desire to just relocate people and fence them in won't work. Not only is it immoral to have forced relocation of a people, it doesn't provide Israel with security.
We haven't had a good attempt at peace in over 20 years. Arafat ruined the peace attempts and things have only gotten worse on both sides at an attempt for peace. It isn't coming soon even with the needed destruction of Hamas. But forcing everyone in Gaza to leave won't give Israel security either.
I think I was responding when you typed that!
The problem is, that if you want peace, both sides have to want it, and the problem is that the ruling party of Gaza does not want it. You can't give them money because it goes to missiles. You can't give them infrastructure because it goes to missiles. Peace in Gaza is really not possible, and that's what both Egypt and Israel realized 20 years ago.
It may mean Israel has to do a lt more than they historically might have, but there aren't a lot of viable options.
And genocide or force relocation of all Palestinians won't provide peace either. Will likely only increase the threat as outside countries or terrorist organizations will get involved.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Egypt blockade is mentioned! Read the posts before yours.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Israel didn't do nothing, they've had Gaza under continuous blockades since 2007, resulting in 50 percent of the population of Gaza being unemployed, 65 percent living below the poverty line, and only 17,000 of 2.3 million people are allowed to seek work in Israel.BonfireNerd04 said:Israel has already tried "doing nothing", and it didn't work.Zobel said:
False dichotomy. There are more options that do nothing and ethnic cleansing. And between the two, do nothing is better than active immorality.
The open air prison solution for Gaza hasn't worked at keeping Israel safe.
So we aren't going to mention that Egypt has also blockaded Gaza since Hamas took over, and at this moment refuses to accept Palestinians from Gaza.
Maybe we should consider why it's not just the Jews, but other Muslims who want nothing to do with Gaza.
Or maybe we ask why it's an open air prison...Maybe wonder what happened to the water pipes that were installed?
Gaza is in this situation because it chose Hamas. You want Gaza to improve, Hamas and it's supporters need to be removed from the field.
You are right on a lot of those things. And it shows that the OPs desire to just relocate people and fence them in won't work. Not only is it immoral to have forced relocation of a people, it doesn't provide Israel with security.
We haven't had a good attempt at peace in over 20 years. Arafat ruined the peace attempts and things have only gotten worse on both sides at an attempt for peace. It isn't coming soon even with the needed destruction of Hamas. But forcing everyone in Gaza to leave won't give Israel security either.
I think I was responding when you typed that!
The problem is, that if you want peace, both sides have to want it, and the problem is that the ruling party of Gaza does not want it. You can't give them money because it goes to missiles. You can't give them infrastructure because it goes to missiles. Peace in Gaza is really not possible, and that's what both Egypt and Israel realized 20 years ago.
It may mean Israel has to do a lt more than they historically might have, but there aren't a lot of viable options.
Well, not if they're kept segregated. But if they could be integrated into their destination countries, the way that German expellees were integrated into German society, then it would work.Quote:
But forcing everyone in Gaza to leave won't give Israel security either.
Pro Sandy said:And genocide or force relocation of all Palestinians won't provide peace either. Will likely only increase the threat as outside countries or terrorist organizations will get involved.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Egypt blockade is mentioned! Read the posts before yours.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Israel didn't do nothing, they've had Gaza under continuous blockades since 2007, resulting in 50 percent of the population of Gaza being unemployed, 65 percent living below the poverty line, and only 17,000 of 2.3 million people are allowed to seek work in Israel.BonfireNerd04 said:Israel has already tried "doing nothing", and it didn't work.Zobel said:
False dichotomy. There are more options that do nothing and ethnic cleansing. And between the two, do nothing is better than active immorality.
The open air prison solution for Gaza hasn't worked at keeping Israel safe.
So we aren't going to mention that Egypt has also blockaded Gaza since Hamas took over, and at this moment refuses to accept Palestinians from Gaza.
Maybe we should consider why it's not just the Jews, but other Muslims who want nothing to do with Gaza.
Or maybe we ask why it's an open air prison...Maybe wonder what happened to the water pipes that were installed?
Gaza is in this situation because it chose Hamas. You want Gaza to improve, Hamas and it's supporters need to be removed from the field.
You are right on a lot of those things. And it shows that the OPs desire to just relocate people and fence them in won't work. Not only is it immoral to have forced relocation of a people, it doesn't provide Israel with security.
We haven't had a good attempt at peace in over 20 years. Arafat ruined the peace attempts and things have only gotten worse on both sides at an attempt for peace. It isn't coming soon even with the needed destruction of Hamas. But forcing everyone in Gaza to leave won't give Israel security either.
I think I was responding when you typed that!
The problem is, that if you want peace, both sides have to want it, and the problem is that the ruling party of Gaza does not want it. You can't give them money because it goes to missiles. You can't give them infrastructure because it goes to missiles. Peace in Gaza is really not possible, and that's what both Egypt and Israel realized 20 years ago.
It may mean Israel has to do a lt more than they historically might have, but there aren't a lot of viable options.
Genocide only occurs if the people of Gaza listen to Hamas, who wants them to stay and die.
Israel is showing more restraint than they necessarily need to.
Or I don't think Israel is doing anything wrong except not providing for the humanitarian crisis they are creating.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:And genocide or force relocation of all Palestinians won't provide peace either. Will likely only increase the threat as outside countries or terrorist organizations will get involved.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Egypt blockade is mentioned! Read the posts before yours.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Israel didn't do nothing, they've had Gaza under continuous blockades since 2007, resulting in 50 percent of the population of Gaza being unemployed, 65 percent living below the poverty line, and only 17,000 of 2.3 million people are allowed to seek work in Israel.BonfireNerd04 said:Israel has already tried "doing nothing", and it didn't work.Zobel said:
False dichotomy. There are more options that do nothing and ethnic cleansing. And between the two, do nothing is better than active immorality.
The open air prison solution for Gaza hasn't worked at keeping Israel safe.
So we aren't going to mention that Egypt has also blockaded Gaza since Hamas took over, and at this moment refuses to accept Palestinians from Gaza.
Maybe we should consider why it's not just the Jews, but other Muslims who want nothing to do with Gaza.
Or maybe we ask why it's an open air prison...Maybe wonder what happened to the water pipes that were installed?
Gaza is in this situation because it chose Hamas. You want Gaza to improve, Hamas and it's supporters need to be removed from the field.
You are right on a lot of those things. And it shows that the OPs desire to just relocate people and fence them in won't work. Not only is it immoral to have forced relocation of a people, it doesn't provide Israel with security.
We haven't had a good attempt at peace in over 20 years. Arafat ruined the peace attempts and things have only gotten worse on both sides at an attempt for peace. It isn't coming soon even with the needed destruction of Hamas. But forcing everyone in Gaza to leave won't give Israel security either.
I think I was responding when you typed that!
The problem is, that if you want peace, both sides have to want it, and the problem is that the ruling party of Gaza does not want it. You can't give them money because it goes to missiles. You can't give them infrastructure because it goes to missiles. Peace in Gaza is really not possible, and that's what both Egypt and Israel realized 20 years ago.
It may mean Israel has to do a lt more than they historically might have, but there aren't a lot of viable options.
Genocide only occurs if the people of Gaza listen to Hamas, who wants them to stay and die.
Israel is showing more restraint than they necessarily need to.
My issue remains with the OP and others who call for genocide and forced relocation of anyone not Israeli.
It won't. The Islamists don't want a land or to be integrated. They want the entire Holy Land. Islamist philosophy must be defeated.BonfireNerd04 said:Well, not if they're kept segregated. But if they could be integrated into their destination countries, the way that German expellees were integrated into German society, then it would work.Quote:
But forcing everyone in Gaza to leave won't give Israel security either.
Pro Sandy said:Or I don't think Israel is doing anything wrong except not providing for the humanitarian crisis they are creating.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:And genocide or force relocation of all Palestinians won't provide peace either. Will likely only increase the threat as outside countries or terrorist organizations will get involved.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Egypt blockade is mentioned! Read the posts before yours.AgLiving06 said:Pro Sandy said:Israel didn't do nothing, they've had Gaza under continuous blockades since 2007, resulting in 50 percent of the population of Gaza being unemployed, 65 percent living below the poverty line, and only 17,000 of 2.3 million people are allowed to seek work in Israel.BonfireNerd04 said:Israel has already tried "doing nothing", and it didn't work.Zobel said:
False dichotomy. There are more options that do nothing and ethnic cleansing. And between the two, do nothing is better than active immorality.
The open air prison solution for Gaza hasn't worked at keeping Israel safe.
So we aren't going to mention that Egypt has also blockaded Gaza since Hamas took over, and at this moment refuses to accept Palestinians from Gaza.
Maybe we should consider why it's not just the Jews, but other Muslims who want nothing to do with Gaza.
Or maybe we ask why it's an open air prison...Maybe wonder what happened to the water pipes that were installed?
Gaza is in this situation because it chose Hamas. You want Gaza to improve, Hamas and it's supporters need to be removed from the field.
You are right on a lot of those things. And it shows that the OPs desire to just relocate people and fence them in won't work. Not only is it immoral to have forced relocation of a people, it doesn't provide Israel with security.
We haven't had a good attempt at peace in over 20 years. Arafat ruined the peace attempts and things have only gotten worse on both sides at an attempt for peace. It isn't coming soon even with the needed destruction of Hamas. But forcing everyone in Gaza to leave won't give Israel security either.
I think I was responding when you typed that!
The problem is, that if you want peace, both sides have to want it, and the problem is that the ruling party of Gaza does not want it. You can't give them money because it goes to missiles. You can't give them infrastructure because it goes to missiles. Peace in Gaza is really not possible, and that's what both Egypt and Israel realized 20 years ago.
It may mean Israel has to do a lt more than they historically might have, but there aren't a lot of viable options.
Genocide only occurs if the people of Gaza listen to Hamas, who wants them to stay and die.
Israel is showing more restraint than they necessarily need to.
My issue remains with the OP and others who call for genocide and forced relocation of anyone not Israeli.
The Palestinians created this crisis not Israel.
Pro Sandy said:It won't. The Islamists don't want a land or to be integrated. They want the entire Holy Land. Islamist philosophy must be defeated.BonfireNerd04 said:Well, not if they're kept segregated. But if they could be integrated into their destination countries, the way that German expellees were integrated into German society, then it would work.Quote:
But forcing everyone in Gaza to leave won't give Israel security either.
OK. How do you defeat it without "ethnic cleansing"?
Why do you put it in quotes when it is literally what is being proposed??
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