How to be saved?

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dermdoc
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AG
aggiedad20 said:

dermdoc said:

aggiedad20 said:

Zobel said:

He's my brother in Christ. We are not in communion.

Now, how about that historical evidence for your denomination in any place other than English speaking lands, any time before 1669?


Light has no communion with darkness I guess.
What is wrong with you?

And mods, why do we have to allow the personal attacks?


So we can't quote scripture here now?

2 Cor 6:14 sir

Sure you can my brother in Christ. Now without bearing false witness, please tell me the intent of your statement above? Was it directed towards me or not? Remember every word will be held in account.
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PacifistAg
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AG
He seems to not understand what it means when Zobel says he isn't in communion with us. The East hasn't been in communion with the West for 1000-ish years, but they don't claim that those under Rome aren't believers as far as I'm aware.
dermdoc
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AG
PacifistAg said:

He seems to not understand what it means when Zobel says he isn't in communion with us. The East hasn't been in communion with the West for 1000-ish years, but they don't claim that those under Rome aren't believers as far as I'm aware.
Yep.

And Matthew 12:36 comes to mind.
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PacifistAg
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This all reminds me of atweet I saw today that really resonated:



And this got me to thinking about what I cling tightly to, and I think this is what I cling most tightly to and remind myself of when theological differences arise. Let's find common ground here:
Quote:

I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father; And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come.

Amen.
dermdoc
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PacifistAg said:

This all reminds me of atweet I saw today that really resonated:



And this got me to thinking about what I cling tightly to, and I think this is what I cling most tightly to and remind myself of when theological differences arise. Let's find common ground here:
Quote:

I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father; And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come.

Amen.

Agree. Read it every morning.

You might really like the Anglican book of Common prayer morning prayer ritual.
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PacifistAg
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Thanks! I'll check it out.
one MEEN Ag
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'Discussion' with AggieDad is like playing chess with a pigeon. He's just going to knock all the pieces over, crap all over the board, and strut around like he won.

aggiedad20
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one MEEN Ag said:

'Discussion' with AggieDad is like playing chess with a pigeon. He's just going to knock all the pieces over, crap all over the board, and strut around like he won.




The only thing resembling a board game in this forum is the way the most here have jumped around from denom to denom like checkers and are now self-appointed kings of the R&P forum. Anything that supports the biblical view of the body (church) of Christ is somehow disregarded as a 5th grade book report or worse. The only people strutting around in here are those who crap all over the truth. I try to defend the one true church that can be found in the scriptures and that apparently is offensive enough for many here to flag and mock me me for doing so.

The irony of your post is rich, indeed.
aggiedad20
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Another good book report on the church for anyone interested in what the Bible has to say

https://www.gospelway.com/church/finding_jesus_church.php
PacifistAg
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AG
Church of Christ is a denomination. Hth.
aggiedad20
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For anyone who is confused about denominations...

https://www.gospelway.com/bible/religious_confusion.php

https://www.gospelway.com/topics/church/undenominational_christians.php

https://www.gospelway.com/church/church-origin.php

https://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=11&article=2844
aggiedad20
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PacifistAg said:

Church of Christ is a denomination. Hth.


"Exclusivistic" perhaps but far from a denomination

HTH

https://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=11&article=2844
PacifistAg
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Nah, it's a denomination. Also interesting that we don't really see our denomination in Palestine, the birthplace of our faith.
ramblin_ag02
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Yes and no. On one hand, a denomination has a central administrative structure that sets the goals and norms for affliated churches and bodies of worshippers. Think SBC, UMC, PC(USA). Churches of Christ clearly do not fit this definition as they are loathe to associate even with other CoC parishes.

On the other hand, denomination can merely mean a flavor of Christianity with a recognizable set of distinctive beliefs and practices. Think baptists, methodists, presbyterians. Knowing someone is CoC clearly gives a very good picture of their basic beliefs and practices. Therefore this usage of denomination fits the situation very well.
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PacifistAg
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Great post. You're right. I immediately thought of my upbringing in the IFB cult. Don't fit the first description, but certainly fits the second. It's just weird because I never recall hearing even the IFB vehemently deny the label "denomination".
Zobel
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Again, there is the tautological error here. "The CoC is the NT church, so any NT church is the CoC." But it doesn't actually demonstrate the truth of this claim. You surely must realize that basically every denomination makes a claim to the NT church, and all protestant denominations say that the scriptures support them in this claim.

The point that is interesting is this "Beginning of the Catholic Church". There were some shaky points earlier but this is where things go off the rails.


Quote:

In Jesus' plan for His church, He is to be the only head, and no man-made laws or earthly headquarters are allowed. No officers may oversee more than one local church.

Certain congregations began to exalt one elder above the others. As new churches began, this exalted "bishop" would assume the oversight of several churches in a region called a "diocese."
Where is this in the scriptures? We can scroll up a bit and find things about the church.

There's this offhanded claim - "Note that 'elder' is just another name for an overseer or 'bishop' and a shepherd or 'pastor.' " This should start the caution flag in the mind. If there's multiple words, should we consider that they mean different things? Are they always used the same way (spoiler: no, they are not). But after this extensive reference to scripture, you get these wholly unscriptural and unsupported claims - like : "The oversight of each eldership is limited to the one local church where they have been appointed." The author makes no effort whatsoever to qualify or support this. It's just taken for granted. Much like the emphasized claim above.

But it's confusing - why is bishop in sarcastiquotes? It's a scriptural term. And in the table of practices this is completely absent. There's a reason. The three-fold clergy structure of bishop-presbyter-deacon is not only apparent in the scriptures, it's also witnessed to extensively from the very beginning. The epistle of St Clement to Corinth talks about bishops, the office of the episcopate, and the practice of apostolic succession in 95 AD. St Ignatius of Antioch writes about this sometime between 105 and 140 AD. The reason the episcopacy isn't on the table is because the beginning of it is on the pages of the NT. That right there is enough to shut the whole thing down. The is no evidence whatsoever in history that supports the other side. Everything we have in history points to the three-fold clergy - bishop leading a group of presbyters, supported by the deacon, with one assembly in each city - being the only structure the church has ever known. If you have any evidence to the contrary, this would be a great time to show it.

The pattern continues with the table. It makes the offhand statement "This historical information can be documented by checking encyclopedias or church history books, including Catholic sources." That's not how this works. This person is making claims, they need to support it. No Catholic source is going to say that icons or infant baptism began in the 4th century.

There is a reason that every source you bring up looks like it was made in geocities in the late 90s. This isn't serious scholarship or theology.
05AG
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05AG
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Quote:

The point that is interesting is this "Beginning of the Catholic Church". There were some shaky points earlier but this is where things go off the rails.


Quote:
In Jesus' plan for His church, He is to be the only head, and no man-made laws or earthly headquarters are allowed. No officers may oversee more than one local church.

Certain congregations began to exalt one elder above the others. As new churches began, this exalted "bishop" would assume the oversight of several churches in a region called a "diocese."
Where is this in the scriptures? We can scroll up a bit and find things about the church.


The Council is Jerusalem in Acts 15 rejects this idea of autonomy between churches.
ramblin_ag02
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Quote:

The Council is Jerusalem in Acts 15 rejects this idea of autonomy between churches.
I'm not saying I disagree, but I've never heard that interpretation of the Council of Jerusalem before. Can you expound a bit?
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05AG
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ramblin_ag02 said:

Quote:

The Council is Jerusalem in Acts 15 rejects this idea of autonomy between churches.
I'm not saying I disagree, but I've never heard that interpretation of the Council of Jerusalem before. Can you expound a bit?


Growing up in the coC I was taught that churches are autonomous and that one church doesn't have authority/say over another church. Elders lead each individual church with no cooperation as that is unbiblical.

When we read Acts 15 we see there was a great dispute among them about circumcision. Paul (who has full teaching authority of his office) and Barnabas didn't just unilaterally decide that circumcision was no longer required but went to Jerusalem to speak, not only to the apostles, but the elders as well. I think it's significant it mentions elders as well (aka bishops) and not just the apostles. They debated this topic and came up with a decision for the universal church.

Throughout history starting in Acts 15, and to today, anytime there is an issue or controversy among believers, the church has met together in councils to decide what is the path forward for the universal church.

To me this flies directly in the face of autonomy. The come back is usually along the lines of "we didn't have the Bible," or "the apostles were still setting up churches."' My issue with that is why did Paul need to meet with other apostles and elders to decide? The apostles were inspired by the Holy Spirit in their teachings and writings, so why didn't Paul just unilaterally make the decision to end circumcision? There are a few reasons, but one is to give us the apostolic example for councils for the church going forward.
Zobel
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AG
There's more than a little bit of detail also needed in the idea of autonomy. I think there's a tendency in modern thought to consider the Church as a sum of parts, that you get the universal Church when you have all of the Churches assembled or put together. And, practically speaking (though not necessarily theologically) I think the RCC implies this in how they teach and talk about the Church, especially when it comes to the papacy.

But universal, catholic, means according to the whole. If we try to really dig in to what the NT implies, and what the fathers understood and taught from that, there's unity in each church. Each bishop, together with the presbyters and the people, is the Church in fullness. I don't think St Cyprian came up with this idea on his own, or St Ignatius.

Each church is the Church without deficiency and in continuity. So there is autonomy and authority there. All the things the Church does are done in each local church without being diminished, and they need no further authority to do or preach these things.

The councils, synods, etc don't constitute the universal Church, but they absolutely to witness to it. And I think we should be careful to affirm that they don't decide the path forward, but instead they affirm the truth as received and revealed by Christ - "the faith passed down once for all to the saints."

The ecumenical councils have been consistent in their wording as to what they're doing - not establishing anything new, but, as they said at the Second Council of Nicaea they came together "that the traditions of the Catholic Church may receive stability by common decree...we diminish nothing, we add nothing, but we preserve unchanged all things..."

And I think Jerusalem is no different. St James more or less says that none of this is surprising as these things were foretold by the Prophets about the Messianic age - and the council at Jerusalem reaffirmed a close reading of Leviticus. What's the addition, or subtraction, or change to the faith there? Nothing - it was an affirmation of the scriptures and establishment of stability by common decree.
ramblin_ag02
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That makes sense. You have to be a little careful though regarding the somewhat post-hoc decisions as to what is consider a valid council, who gets to make the rules for everyone, and what topics should be uniform throughout Christendom. You don't have to go far into church history to find major disagreements on all these points.

I do like your point about Paul wanting a full Council instead of just trying to enact a universal standard. Like you said, he was a miracle-performing Apostle full of the Holy Spirit. Even so, he didn't go around unilaterally making decisions for the whole Church. That also puts his writings in a different light. Large swathes of Christian legalism are based on Paul's letters to individual churches. Some today feel those instructions applied to all of Christendom at the time and forever after. Women not speaking in church is a good example. However, Paul clearly doesn't feel comfortable making such sweeping proclamations and edicts, otherwise there would have been no need for the Council of Jerusalem.
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Zobel
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I'm not sure I agree with your last sentence. St Paul tells the churches in Galatia he had no need to go to Jerusalem for affirmation or approval or whatever. Whatever the reasons were to settle the matter in that way I don't think it was because St Paul was uncomfortable exercising his authority. I think it was an issue he was absolutely adamant about, and wanted to do exactly what happened - make a universal standard and close the subject once for all.
ramblin_ag02
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Zobel said:

I'm not sure I agree with your last sentence. St Paul tells the churches in Galatia he had no need to go to Jerusalem for affirmation or approval or whatever. Whatever the reasons were to settle the matter in that way I don't think it was because St Paul was uncomfortable exercising his authority. I think it was an issue he was absolutely adamant about, and wanted to do exactly what happened - make a universal standard and close the subject once for all.
But that example is never followed. One Apostle or one bishop isn't making unilateral decrees for Christendom anywhere else in Christian history. The closest you get are popes in the Middle Ages, and I know you don't think that's an example to emulate. So while I don't think any Apostle (or bishop) needs any other's permission to exercise their authority, that authority does not extend to all of Christendom in perpetuity.
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05AG
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AG
Zobel said:

And I think we should be careful to affirm that they don't decide the path forward, but instead they affirm the truth as received and revealed by Christ - "the faith passed down once for all to the saints."

The ecumenical councils have been consistent in their wording as to what they're doing - not establishing anything new, but, as they said at the Second Council of Nicaea they came together "that the traditions of the Catholic Church may receive stability by common decree...we diminish nothing, we add nothing, but we preserve unchanged all things..."

And I think Jerusalem is no different. St James more or less says that none of this is surprising as these things were foretold by the Prophets about the Messianic age - and the council at Jerusalem reaffirmed a close reading of Leviticus. What's the addition, or subtraction, or change to the faith there? Nothing - it was an affirmation of the scriptures and establishment of stability by common decree.


I agree. That is a better way to put it. I agree that the truth was once delivered for all time. When I say the "path forward" in my mind they meet together to discuss the truth once delivered and what it means going forward due to some controversy or unclear understanding among the faithful.
Zobel
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AG
Hm, I think we may be talking about different things. When you say unilateral decrees, what does that mean? St Paul's epistles are filled with absolute statements that tolerate no deviation. For example, "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." or "If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith." Or, "Take notice: I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all." Those are pretty strong decrees.

Or, do you mean things like "women should cover their heads in worship"? Because I think there's a kind of difference there, no?

There's a pretty good argument to be made that the letter to the churches in Galatia was written before the council of Jerusalem, in which case the whole perspective of this discussion changes.

Anyhow, the way I see it, authority is participation in Christ's authority. It's not something any bishop has solely from their office or from their person. If St Paul deviated from truth in his teaching, he'd deviate from that authority. If a lay person teaches the truth, they teach with authority.
aggiedad20
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The ONLY organized entity in the New Testament is the LOCAL CONGREGATION...elders/bishops/pastors are all the same office, requiring the same qualifications and all chosen by the LOCAL CONGREGATIONS in the New Testament. This is scriptural.

Many may follow some other man-made traditional organization, but what I've listed above is from the ONLY inspired writings we have today, the Bible



dermdoc
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aggiedad20 said:

The ONLY organized entity in the New Testament is the LOCAL CONGREGATION...elders/bishops/pastors are all the same office, requiring the same qualifications and all chosen by the LOCAL CONGREGATIONS in the New Testament. This is scriptural.

Many may follow some other man-made traditional organization, but what I've listed above is from the ONLY inspired writings we have today, the Bible






Who is responsible for deciding the Canon? The books that make up the Bible that we read today?

Who met at those Councils?
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aggiedad20
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dermdoc said:

Zobel said:

The next step aside from time is geography. Where were these people in France, Spain, Italy, Greece, Russia, Africa, etc?
They weren't. The CofC is a denomination started in the 1800's.


The is a lie, but carry on...
Zobel
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AG
Please point to the scripture about local. What does local mean to you?

Please show me where a congregation chooses its clergy. Who appoints a presbyter?

It's good that you've abandoned the historical arguments though. Making progress, if only by tacit admission.
dermdoc
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AG
aggiedad20 said:

dermdoc said:

Zobel said:

The next step aside from time is geography. Where were these people in France, Spain, Italy, Greece, Russia, Africa, etc?
They weren't. The CofC is a denomination started in the 1800's.


The is a lie, but carry on...


Remember, we are held accountable for every word.

I still pray for you daily.
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aggiedad20
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For someone who thinks historical evidences are nothing more than a 5th grade book report, you sure are zealous in your feeble attempts to malign it...

The churches of Christ salute you (Rom 16:16)



dermdoc
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AG
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Church-of-Christ
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Zobel
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AG
I didn't dismiss it on the basis of it being poorly written. I dismissed it because it was poorly written and riddled with inaccuracies and unsupported statements. And you didn't answer any of my questions. What do the scriptures say about the locality of churches and appointing elders - presbyters?
aggiedad20
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Zobel said:

Please point to the scripture about local. What does local mean to you?

Please show me where a congregation chooses its clergy. Who appoints a presbyter?

It's good that you've abandoned the historical arguments though. Making progress, if only by tacit admission.


Acts 14:23 Paul appointed elders in EACH CHURCH.

Here's one example. There are numerous
 
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