Interesting you want to use Romans 2, but not Romans 3. Some might view that as proof-texting on your part.

I would propose you have to read Romans 2 in light of Romans 3 since that is the further expansion of Paul's argument about justification.

Romans 3

20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins...

I could keep going, but I think the point is clear. Justification is not and will not be based on our works and Paul is not claiming we will receive restitution for anything we've done. What we've done will always be insufficient.

So when we look at Romans 2, in light of Romans 3 (and so forth), I think it becomes more clear, that what he means is:

Romans 2:8 "those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury." - Equates to those who think they should be rewarded based on their "good" works.

Romans 2:7 "those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life" - equates to those who realize that their justification is in Christ alone and that through that justification, they can actually pursue the works of God (sanctification) and become more Christlike (theosis).

Where have I said justification is by works?

Justification does not have an identity relationship with salvation. One is a part of the other.

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Paul is not claiming we will receive restitution for anything we've done.

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"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad."

"Whatever you do, work at it with your whole being, for the Lord and not for men, because you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as your reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. Whoever does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism."

Saint Paul does claim this very thing.

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Romans 2:8 "those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury." - Equates to those who think they should be rewarded based on their "good" works.

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This is a massive projection into the text. It's not in code. It says - bad for bad, good for good.

To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil, first for the Jew, then for the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, first for the Jew, then for the Greek. For God does not show favoritism.

If we want to read Romans in context, read it in light of the fact that he's writing to a church that recently had the return of Jews to it, after the Jews were expulsed from Rome. The overarching goal here is for St Paul to ensure that there does not end up two churches, one of gentiles, one of Jews. The whole fist half (up to Ch11) is explaining how and why the nations fit into salvation by the Jewish messiah. This isn't a theological treatise on good works, it is about the Law, the Jews, the Nations, and God's plan. Romans 1:16-17 is an introductive summary - "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek. For the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: 'The righteous will live by faith.' "

It starts with a criticism of paganism, and then a warning against condemnation. Then, the same to the Jews - you think you're so great because you have the Law and look down on the pagans. But you break the Law too, and when they do good they keep the Law. Plus you've got a problem: one, no one is righteous, and two the Law was never meant to save us from the bondage of sin in the first place. The Law was to manage sin so God could dwell with Israel, and to bring awareness of sin, to turn sin into transgression.

So what good is there in being a Jew? Why did God create Israel? as part of the divine plan, to receive the Scriptures and the promises. And now, since from the beginning God has had this plan to save the nations and Israel together, the plan has come, and it is Christ, and it is through faith in Him - not by keeping the Law, and not by being an ethnic Jew.

Does this cancel the Law or make it useless? No. This is nothing new. It's always been like this, forgiveness and salvation and God's plan have always been through grace, and faith, because God has always moved first toward his creation in salvation. Abraham did nothing to receive the promises. He didn't earn it, it wasn't wages for labor. And so even his circumcision wasn't what "did" anything because God made the plan and the promises before that. All he had to do was have faith and be obedient.

And so, we too participate in God's plan, which happened apart from our actions, which was done for us before we were even born - and we can't earn our way in, because it has already been done. And we gain access to Christ Jesus by faith, into this grace.

To prove the point even more that it wasn't anything we did to earn it - we didn't have to earn enough merit for the savior to come (which is a critique of first century Pharisaism) - the act of righteousness by Jesus brought justification and life for all men. There was sin, the Law brought awareness of sin, and in that time where everyone was slave to sin and death, one Man defeated death to save people from death.

Next he answers the objection. If the point of the Law was to reveal sin, and magnify grace, should we keep sinning so grace increases? No - because we were purchased out of sin, we died to sin, and through this death we can now live a new life in Christ. He freed us.

Another question - ok then, but since we're free from the Law, there's no trespass. No, because freedom is limited - you're free to chose, but what you choose also is your master. If you choose sin, you will die because death is what follows from sin. If you choose obedience to God, you will live, because life is what follows from righteousness.

Then he goes into detail about the Law. If this was the whole thing, why have the Law in the first place? Because we were enslaved from birth to sin. The Law made us aware of sin, taught us what is good and bad. And it also showed that we were truly enslaved, how helpless we were - as soon as we knew what was sin, we want to sin more. But in Christ, we are freed from this.

So, there's no more condemnation in Jesus - the Spirit does what the Law cannot: save us from sin. Defeat sin and death. And now that we are Spiritual, we are no longer worldly (fleshly as St Paul says). To be worldly is death, but to be Spiritual is to be life. If you're worldly you can't please God, but now that we are in Christ, we are Spiritual.

THEREFORE (Romans 8:12 - a conclusion to the preceding chapters) having laid ALL of that out. We have an obligation, but not to the world to live the way the world does - if you do that you'll die. But if by the Spirit we put to death our sinful work, we'll live. Because we're not slaves any more.

The second half of Romans 8 and the 9-11 take all that - the what and how of salvation to all men, and show that from the very beginning this was the plan, and how God used Israel to accomplish this plan, and how the nations who were scattered come back to God to be grafted in. And, there's another "therefore" in Romans 12 which moves on from the general / theological portion of the epistle to the practical application - based on all that, here's what we should do in our lives.

If you read it in context you'll find that grace was unconditional, preceded us, was done according to a plan kept secret before all ages even from the angels (as St Paul says) how could we have earned it? What could we have done, as slaves, ignorant, unaware, helpless to do good? Even knowing what good is made us more sinful! Since God absolutely will judge based on what we do, good and evil - we were well and truly screwed. And into this situation, He moved. That's grace. And, having been presented this grace, through faith we enter into grace, and then we have an "obligation" to live righteously, and if we don't that way leads back to death. That's what Romans 1-8 is about.

Again, I'll point out that most don't have an issue providing the book/verses they want to quote. It helps everyone out. Just a thought.

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Your first quote was from 2 Corinthians 5, so lets quote a bit more:

"6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

So like Romans, Paul is contrasting what to be in christ vs in the flesh. But that does not equate to any sort of justifying statement.

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Your second quote is from Colossians.

Colossians 3

18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.19 Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them.20 Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord. 21 Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged. 22 Bondservants, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.25 For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality.

In context, again this has nothing to do with justification or salvation. It has to do with the commands that God gave us towards each other. We will answer for it, but not in the context of being salvation dependent or anything of that sort.

So neither fits justification.

That's not to say that there won't be rewards for those who persevered more in the work of the Lord, but that is in no way related to justification. It's related to those "already invited to the party" as they say.

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This is a massive projection into the text. It's not in code. It says - bad for bad, good for good.

To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

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Sigh. No it's not. For Paul, there's no good works outside of God. So for those who think they can do good on their own, without christ, are in fact sinning because they believe there's even a sliver in good in themselves apart from Christ. That goodness left with the sin of Adam and now we are children of wrath (ephesian 2) when we try to do things on our own.

Recall what Paul told the Philippians. He was "good" by all the legal standards, but it was worth nothing to him.

Philippians 3:

"4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more:5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith"

Why are you talking about justification? You've moved the argument. Salvation and justification aren't the same thing.

Who said anything about on our own? Who said outside God? You're arguing against things I'm not saying.

There also seems to be this idea that the Lord was somehow not correct when He said keeping the commandments leads to life and doing evil leads to destruction. Or that St Paul, echoing Him, had an asterisk next to it. It's not true. Keeping God's commandments is the way to life. And breaking them is the way to death. It is as simple as that.

The outcome for humanity is that on receipt of that knowledge, it became a curse for us because of our sinful nature. Not that the Law was sin, or untrue. Obedience leads to life, disobedience to death. And that has not passed away and will not pass away - as the Lord taught. But the Torah was not to save us from death but to reveal sin by turning sin into trespass, which comes with knowledge. And it managed sin, so that God could dwell among Israel. What changes with justification is our relationship to sin and death, in grace, through Christ Jesus. By participating in His death we die to sin and are therefore no longer slave to sin, and that same Law which was a curse to us is no longer a curse. As Christians we are purchased out of slavery - like Israel from Egypt - and are bought to God to be His people. But evil is still evil and good is still good, the outcome of sin is still death and the outcome of righteous obedience is still life.

There's no teaching that trying to do good is bad, but recognizing that we are to be perfect. Not by our own power or apart from God, but by submission in obedience to His grace in us. But again, obedience still leads to life, disobedience still leads to death. What changes by grace is our relationship to obedience and ability to be obedient through His Spirit being placed within us. The Law doesn't change, but it is placed on our hearts. Instead of being commanded to be holy, He makes us Holy. He - and not us. And He does it by sharing His Holiness and His Righteousness with us, that we can actually become His righteousness. This sharing also began with Him, as grace does, and is accomplished through the incarnation - He takes our humanity upon Himself which unites humanity to Him and allows us to be united to His holiness and righteousness. And through His death we are freed from the curse of sin and death, and through His resurrection was have new life. Salvation is by the Lord, alone - it is His work which does it from beginning to end. He's both the source and destination of our salvation. And we participate in this through obedience to Him - faith, granted by Him, made possible by His outpouring of the Spirit, which leads to repentance, humility, keeping the commandments, loving God, and loving others. This is the only way to life, and disobedience precludes it.

So of course no one is saved by works of the Law or works apart from God. But that was never suggested.

Moved the argument? I'm responding to your original statement

Your exact wording was:

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As St Paul, the great champion of justification by faith says:

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So no, you introduced justification in your post.

Further though, justification is why when we do stand before Christ, our salvation will not be due to our works. It would be easy if we were to be justified by our works. All have fallen short and there would be nobody in heaven.

But because of what we received by faith, our justification comes through Christ blood.

Yes. The point I was making St Paul teaches both judgment for deeds, and justification by faith. It would be just as much an error to teach judgment for deeds and ignore justification by faith as it is to teach justification by faith exclusive of judgment for deeds. They're not in opposition to each other.

I am unsure why you keep repeating that we're not justified by our works, seeing as we both agree that we are justified by faith, and I have never said otherwise.

I mean, my frank opinion is that it is reactionary against medieval Roman Catholic practices which produced a dichotomy between faith and works where none existed. And, once you take that as an a priori assumption salvation *has* to be included in justification, else the dichotomy falls apart. Then everything gets confused.

But people don't all agree that following a checklist doesn't do people good. Or, put another way, some people teach that NOT following a checklist precludes salvation, which is like same same but different.

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But people don't all agree that following a checklist doesn't do people good. Or, put another way, some people teach that NOT following a checklist precludes salvation, which is like same same but different.

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To me this line of reasoning only happens when someone or some group puts themselves at the level of God. After all, if this redeemed and loving person doesn't do the specific good deeds prescribed by our group then are they really saved? Surely the problem is not with our group. So it must be a problem with the redeemed. All this overlooking the fact that the redeemed are servants of God, and we are told explicitly not to judge His servants.

Agreed

ramblin_ag02 said:

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But people don't all agree that following a checklist doesn't do people good. Or, put another way, some people teach that NOT following a checklist precludes salvation, which is like same same but different.

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To me this line of reasoning only happens when someone or some group puts themselves at the level of God. After all, if this redeemed and loving person doesn't do the specific good deeds prescribed by our group then are they really saved? Surely the problem is not with our group. So it must be a problem with the redeemed. All this overlooking the fact that the redeemed are servants of God, and we are told explicitly not to judge His servants.

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"I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindlernot even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES."

1 Corinthians 5:9-13 NASB1995

You skipped the preceding part about why. Not because we are able to know that they are condemned eternally, but so that their soul might be saved on the day of judgment (1 cor 5:5)

How does that quote relate to the discussion of salvation by good works? It doesn't mention salvation or good works at all. Seems like a complete non-sequitur

ramblin_ag02 said:

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How does that quote relate to the discussion of salvation by good works? It doesn't mention salvation or good works at all. Seems like a complete non-sequitur

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We are to judge those within the church.

OP

Pray constantly
Read the Bible n earnest
Love one another
Forgive your enemies
Don't judge
Repent from your sins..........will become easier while in the word
Love God
Believe all has been paid by the blood of the lamb
Walk with Jesus


Note: I listen on you tube "Grace to You" ministries of John MacAuthur a few times per week. Teaches from the gospel and an excellent speaker.

Wife and I are reading on testament together on weekends which strengthens the marriage.

Maybe it's late and my brain is slow tonight. I understand the passage but in no way see how it related to the discussion.

Unless maybe you posted it as a counterpoint to my statement that we explicitly forbidden from judging God's servants. So then you post this to say we should judge those in our church. Just two problems with this.

First, It assumes that all God's servants are in your church and therefore subject to your judgement. This seems presumptuous at best.

Second, and worse, you are drawing the conclusion that we are commanded to judge the salvation of those in the church. That is not at all what is being said. Christians in general are a nation of priests, like Israel was a nation of priests. In general we are held to a higher standard so we can be an example. So when people flout that standard, it makes sense. We say "you do not represent us or what God calls Christians to be". However, we don't make judgement on their salvation

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Maybe it's late and my brain is slow tonight. I understand the passage but in no way see how it related to the discussion.

Unless maybe you posted it as a counterpoint to my statement that we explicitly forbidden from judging God's servants. So then you post this to say we should judge those in our church. Just two problems with this.

First, It assumes that all God's servants are in your church and therefore subject to your judgement. This seems presumptuous at best.

Second, and worse, you are drawing the conclusion that we are commanded to judge the salvation of those in the church. That is not at all what is being said. Christians in general are a nation of priests, like Israel was a nation of priests. In general we are held to a higher standard so we can be an example. So when people flout that standard, it makes sense. We say "you do not represent us or what God calls Christians to be". However, we don't make judgement on their salvation

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No, you made the comment that we are not to judge God's servants. God's servants are within the body of the church. We are to judge those in the body of the church, to keep out wolves, false doctrine, to provide church discipline, etc. I don't see where the confusion is in what I posted.

I think dealing in the extremes is easy. We all theoretically agree with each other, but it's sometimes good to establish the extremes so that when we get to the areas of disagreement.

For example, since we agree that we cannot be saved by our works, but by faith in Jesus, synergism "should" be off the table, but we know that won't be the case. The argument will be that our will can "cooperate with God" with the outcome being good works. This is before we even wonder how our will can be good outside of God, but that's another issue.

So I think it's always profitable to at least agree where we can agree because in the details we won't agree.

You substituted saved for justified again.

There's a difference in how you're using judge. Judging the outcome of someone's soul, eternally, is not our place. There is one Judge for that and He ain't us.

Zobel said:

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There's a difference in how you're using judge. Judging the outcome of someone's soul, eternally, is not our place. There is one Judge for that and He ain't us.

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Of course we don't judge someones salvation. But we should fruit inspectors.

Right. But he was talking about salvation. Yay, we all agree.

Sigh...I keep forgetting you like to play these games to avoid discussion.

Saved by faith references to Ephesians 2, but you already know that.

However, to rephrase:

Men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for Christ's sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake, who, by His death, has made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight (Romans 3 and 4).

I'm not playing a game it is a serious difference. Justification and salvation aren't the same thing. Most of the miscommunication here is because you keep treating them as if they are, and I don't believe they are.

Satisfaction and imputation are also a layer of interpretation that are not in the scripture; so there's gonna be difference there.

Believe what Jesus says of His Father, that He is a God of unconditional love demonstrated as Jesus on the cross. For God SO loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth into Him shall not perish but keep on having eternal life. John 3:16; John 17:3.

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Sigh. See what I mean? Yes, we are saved by Jesus past tense. Before we did anything good, He saved us through His grace, and we receive that mercy by being joined into the promises through baptism. But you're just saying "saved" but really meaning "justified" or including all aspects of salvation, past present and future.

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There are a few points here where I disagree.
1. We are joined to Jesus or receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of faith and not water baptism.
2. Justified = saved from the penalty of sin, declared righteous in Gods eyes, granted eternal life.

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"Go to heaven" is not in the scriptures. Nor is "saved from hell."

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Eternal life = heaven not hell

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And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Did he sit around and wait in Ur, to receive the promise? No - the promise being made, which was a unilateral motion of grace on the part of God, he got up and obeyed.

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A few more points of disagreement. Abe lied twice saying Sarah was his sister and almost caused a greater sin. Abe was not perfect after he believed. He also did not lose his standing of righteousness in Gods eyes when he sinned. He was not declared righteous because of his future obediance.

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The faith and the obedience are not in opposition. They can't be. Put another way, a person who has faith in Jesus will repent, will be be baptized, will submit his body as an instrument of righteousness, and will have eternal life - so yes, they will be saved. If a person does not have faith, the rest will not follow either. There's no conflict here. It's not either or, it's not do works save apart from God - this is a heresy!

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Faith and works (obedience, righteous deeds) are in direct opposition if one believes their works or obedience has anything to do with their justification. Justification is a completely free, irrevocable gift given the very moment one believes. At this point in time, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

A person who is saved SHOULD get baptized, repent, submit his body as an instrument of righteousness. But to say that a person WILL do these things is not biblical.

I would say it's a heresy to add to the finished works of Christ. As long as the believer lives in the flesh they will struggle with sin until they are glorified. A person can be on death row with having never done a righteous deed and at in one moment, put their faith and Jesus and be given eternal life and die the next moment.

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Justification - free gift - eternal life, saved from hell

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Who is in danger of falling away? You mention 1 Corinthians. In ch 10 St Paul tells them - learn the lesson of Israel who were baptized, ate the spiritual food, so that we know that if we desire evil things, if we engage in idolatry or sexual immorality, or grumbling, we are in danger of not receiving the promises. He says - as you note to Christians who are believing, who are baptized, and who have partaken of the eucharist - "the one thinks he is standing firm should be careful not to fall." Or in another place - "They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid."

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Challenge:
What is true of a person the moment they believe?
What has God promises has God made they He will fullfill?
What's true of the audience in chapter 1 of 1 Cor?
In the Chapter below why would Paul need to warn believers (in which God has made promises they he will keep) to flee idolatry if it's not possible for believers to live idolatrous lives?
Think of all of the examples where they are consequences for believers living in sin that has nothing to do with losing salvation.

10 For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud and they all passed through the sea; 2 and they all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and they all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased; for their dead bodies were spread out in the wilderness.
6 Now these things happened as examples for us (believers), so that we would not crave evil things as they indeed craved them. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play." 8 Nor are we to commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9 Nor are we to put the Lord to the test, as some of them did, and were killed by the snakes. 10 Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were killed by the destroyer. 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let the one who thinks he stands watch out that he does not fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you except something common to mankind; and God is faithful, so He will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry...

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Or St Peter - "Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing."

All men receive eternal life - the righteous and wicked with both be judged.

At any rate, if we understand that "save" includes justification, sanctification, and glorification - and even beyond this, then that's fine. If that's what we believe, no one living is saved, past tense. We are either being saved or perishing, as the scriptures say.

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I'm saying a war hardened sinner can put their faith in Jesus at one point in time and receive the Holy Spirit and eternal life without ever doing a good deed, getting baptized, going to church, or anything else. The work of Christ is sufficient and complete and is applied at the moment of faith.

If a believer is not living in agreement with the indwelling Holy Spirit that they receive at the moment of belief then there are all sorts of negative consequences but not being saved or losing their salvation is not one of them.

Few passages tell a person about how to have eternal life. Most of the NT is written to believers motivating them on why they should live a life pursuing-loving Christ and loving their neighbor and the consequences for not doing so have nothing to do with losing ones salvation.

So many assumptions. You start with definitions and back into scriptures. Your first three points are all a prior assumptions. It's impossible to have a discussion when you begin with assumptions as fact. But that's fine.

My last response was word for word from the Book of Concord, just so it would be clear that you'll dismiss any items of discussion.

Not even Rome materially argued against it in their confutation. They had some weird argument that where there was wages there was merit, yet our works have no merit except when done with God.
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Salvation and Justification interact with each other so much that because salvation is the effect of justification.

If not for the atoning work of Jesus on the Cross what salvation would there be for man? That's why Luther called it the the doctrine on which the church stands. It's the "cause" of atonement, of baptism, of God's grace, etc etc.

I know, but I wasn't dismissing anything, and nowhere in our discussions have I ever been dismissive. Disagreement is not dismissal.

You may want to reword your last paragraph. I don't think justification is the cause of God's grace, atonement, or baptism.

And at any rate, I wonder how you consider Matthew 12:36-37 in light of justification.

I may have some challenges to some of what you wrote (I'd need to think more on it), but in general well said.

I think categories such as justification/salvation/sanctification can be useful, but there needs to be agreement over definitions and unfortunately that tends to be lacking in these kind of settings.

Last paragraph works fine.

What is baptism without Jesus death/resurrection on the cross?

We come to truly understand God's grace through Jesus christ

Romans 3:

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

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On Matthew 12:36-37

First, it doesn't play a huge role in justification directly. These verses are more in alignment with something like James 2 that talks about what true faith is.

Second, I wouldn't start there at that verse since you miss what Jesus is saying.

So lets start at verse 33

"33 "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit.34 You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.35 The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

It's good to start by saying that the fruit did not cause the tree to be good or bad. If the tree is good the effect is we get good fruit. If the tree is bad, we get bad fruit. If we try to make works the cause of faith or cause of salvation or a contributor to salvation, we are claiming that somehow the quality of the fruit is impacting the tree and we just don't see evidence of that in examples like this.

So as I said above, this is less about justification and more about our faith. There's a multitude of verses on man being created by God for good works (Ephesians 2:10 for example). So if we truly have faith that we are saved (past and present with hope towards the future), than we should do what God created us for and so it shouldn't be surprising that good works flow from us.

Atonement preceded justification, not the other way around. Justification is made possible by atonement - causal the other way is precluded. God's grace comes from God, not justification - although this seems so obvious I don't really understand why it needs to be said.

You go through great pains to argue with the Lord. Me, personally, I believe Him when He says we will have to give an account for every word spoken at the day of judgment - not just some - and by those same words we will be condemned or considered righteous. The earlier portion of this doesn't change what it says. It is pretty straightforward.

The struggle you're having is because you're burdened this one word with *everything* you have to defend any possible alternate understanding vehemently. But to be declared righteous was a legal matter - it meant being judged to be the party in the right. Could be civil, could be criminal. The declaration of righteousness is a judge's decision. The Judge, here, is telling you how He is going to judge. Does this mean "go to hell" or "go to heaven"? It's not there. Does this mean, "every word you say in an effort to do good is sin anyway"? No, because that isn't there either. Does it mean "every word you say bad is held against you, every good word is irrelevant, except for a confession of faith"? This is the definition of special pleading.

If you can accept the idea that what justifies a man, what will set him right in his relationship with God, what God wants from us is faith - AND that on the day of judgment our deeds will be what separates us as sheep and goats, or what causes what we build to burn or stand tested, or bear good fruit or not - without suggesting that somehow these two ideas oppose instead of affirm each other - all of these confusing asterisks and causalities and whatever are simply unnecessary. One flows from the other as naturally as a puddle comes from rain or a plant comes from a seed.

It doesn't deny that God's grace precedes at all times. It doesn't deny but affirms that belief, or faith, or trust in God's mighty act of grace is what enables a man to participate in the promises of grace God unilaterally makes (in this case, those promises include salvation from death, and affirm eternal life with Him in the new creation). And it doesn't move anything from faith as necessity. It just acknowledges that when nearly everyone who wrote in the New Testament and a good deal of the prophets say - God will judge and reward a man according to what he does - they mean it.

I mean, if we can't agree that there is a judgment for what people do, I don't see how you we ever hope to agree with anything, because it is literally in the text verbatim many, many times.