Your examples mix and match what the word saved means and how it is used. Saved can mean, saved from injury, rescued from danger, eternal salvation, etc etc etc.

You should also not divorce the NT from it's broader context. St Paul goes through great pains in several places to teach that the Church is a continuation of Israel, the gentiles are grafted onto the root of Abraham. Israel in Egypt wasn't ethnic - it was a distinction between Egyptians and Israel, and the distinction was those who obeyed in eating the Passover. A whole multitude went out from Egypt, not just ethnic Israelites. Many of the Israelites have Egyptian names, especially the Levites. People like Caleb we not Israelites but became so (he was Kennizite). How did they become Israelites on that day? Through obedience and the blood of the lamb. How did an alien or foreigner get to eat the Passover? By becoming circumcised, becoming fully an Israelite.

St Paul says those who did this, ate spiritual food and drink and were baptized in the sea and under the cloud - they drank water from the Rock, and the Rock is Christ.

So how do we become joined to Israel? The answer is quite clear - baptism, spiritual food and drink which is the Eucharist - blood and water spring from Christ's side, He is our manna, our spiritual food and drink. And to do this, to partake of this Passover - for He is the Paschal lamb - we are baptized into Christ, the circumcision not performed by human hands, as St Paul puts it.

Our grafting into the promises of Abraham, our participation in the divine plan and mystery kept secret from all ages, as St Paul says, is foreshadowed by the types shown to Israel and fulfilled in Christ, in baptism, and in the Eucharist. It's all of a piece.

Here's a great refresher course for everyone on New Testament conversion...study to show yourself approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15)

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1277-conversions-in-acts

TxAgPreacher said:

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Thief on the cross argument is pointless. He died under the Jewish covenant.

The New Covenant wasn't established until after Christ was raised from the dead. That's when he defeated death. Being baptized into his death as an appeal to new life would have been pointless before he was raised.

lets move on.

---

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO MAN cometh unto the Father, but by me."
John 14:6 KJV

TXaggiesTX said:

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TxAgPreacher said:

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Thief on the cross argument is pointless. He died under the Jewish covenant.

The New Covenant wasn't established until after Christ was raised from the dead. That's when he defeated death. Being baptized into his death as an appeal to new life would have been pointless before he was raised.

lets move on.

---

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO MAN cometh unto the Father, but by me."
John 14:6 KJV

---

Come on man... You're bypassing my argument. I totally agree with that verse. The new covenant wasn't established until He died on the cross and was raised. Jesus is God so that statement was always true.

So what happened to all the Jews, and gentiles that all died before Christ died on the cross? What if they never heard the gospel? It's all just silly hypotheticals used to distract from simple bible teaching. You don't need to twist one example and make it contradict the rest of the scriptures.

Sorry if my point wasn't very clear. I am happy this conversation has remained very respectful by all parties.

My point in posting John 14:6 was to emphasize that nobody can go to Heaven without faith in Jesus (everyone here seems to believe this, that is great). Old Testament Saints are also justified by grace through faith. They just had to trust that God would save them instead of trusting that God (Jesus) has already saved us

Well, I think in Matthew 3:9 the Lord is telling them that their ethnicity is not going to make them heirs to the promise. Their thinking was along the lines of, promises were made to Abraham, we are Abraham's heirs, hence we are automatically "in". But, as the Lord says, He can raise up new children like nothing from stones if he want. Or, as St Paul expands, cut off branches and graft new wild ones in. And then even re-graft the dead branches back, too. We, too, have Abraham as our father (cf 1 Cor 10:1, speaking to gentile audience, "our forefathers...") and so we, too are heirs to the promise - not by blood, but, as St Paul says, because we belong to Christ and therefore are part of the Heir, by faith (Gal 3:29, 4:28, Ephesians 3:6, Romans 4:13, 8:17, 9:8, 1 Cor 3:23, etc etc etc).

But - to your point - the fact that those who were heirs by the flesh were cut off for disobedience should not make us proud, but fill us with fear. St Paul teaches - "You will say, then, 'Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.' Rightly so: They were broken off by the unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be high minded, but be afraid. For if God did not at all spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you."

And again as St Paul says, "if you live according to flesh, you are about to die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." or again "Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?"


You are right - salvation is not a moment, but a process that begins with a moment. Following St Maximos I'd go as far as to say that doesn't even end after death, nor after the resurrection, but the process of growing up to the full measure of the stature of Christ extends into eternity. Being conformed to His image, to become like Him, is an infinite thing because we are finite and He is infinite, and beyond infinite. I love the example of trajectory, this is perfectly true and a very patristic metaphor.

TxAgPreacher said:

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Pierow said:

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Why did Jesus say he needed to be baptized? To fulfill all righteousness. We should do the same, if you are born again. But it is grace that saves you through FAITH. One of the ways you show your faith is through baptism.

The Ethiopian eunuchs exuberance is an example I use.

---

You're disobeying if you don't, so how can you be saved if you are openly refusing to fulfill a command? This anti baptism stuff is silly. Before you say oh I think its good but it has nothing to do with salvation, just stop. You're trying to justify a clear violation of a commandment. There is no need for it. If you love me keep my commandments. He commanded you to be baptized so just do it, for the forgiveness of sins, like the scripture says.

---

I'm not disagreeing with you. You should be baptized. But he also said go to the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Are you doing that? Have you given all of your money away and giving it all to the poor? Are you living a perfectly sinless life yet? Are you doing everything he said to do? If so, you don't need him then, do you. It is your faith that saves you. Paul, in his letter to the Romans was very clear. To say that one is not saved merely because they were not dunked in water, is missing the entire point of the gospel.

Pierow said:

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TxAgPreacher said:

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Pierow said:

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Why did Jesus say he needed to be baptized? To fulfill all righteousness. We should do the same, if you are born again. But it is grace that saves you through FAITH. One of the ways you show your faith is through baptism.

The Ethiopian eunuchs exuberance is an example I use.

---

You're disobeying if you don't, so how can you be saved if you are openly refusing to fulfill a command? This anti baptism stuff is silly. Before you say oh I think its good but it has nothing to do with salvation, just stop. You're trying to justify a clear violation of a commandment. There is no need for it. If you love me keep my commandments. He commanded you to be baptized so just do it, for the forgiveness of sins, like the scripture says.

---

I'm not disagreeing with you. You should be baptized. But he also said go to the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Are you doing that? Have you given all of your money away and giving it all to the poor? Are you living a perfectly sinless life yet? Are you doing everything he said to do? If so, you don't need him then, do you. It is your faith that saves you. Paul, in his letter to the Romans was very clear. To say that one is not saved merely because they were not dunked in water, is missing the entire point of the gospel.

---

I mentioned this earlier, but I think Paul would not understand a person claiming to be a believer that is not baptized. The pattern of the New Testament is hear the Gospel, respond to the Gospel, baptism...with the second and third portions being a part of the same group of actions that we discuss as salvation. So even if you argue that baptism itself does not save, it is impossible to ignore its importance in the writings of Paul as it pertains to union with Christ and the emphasis and entrance into the Body.

St Paul is quite clear that all Christians are called to different life and that is ok. Married, celibate; generous, teaching, encouraging, praying. Not all are apostles, not all are called to the same things. Nowhere do we see some kind of exception about circumcision or baptism.

We are saved through participation, partaking, communing with Christ. We put on Christ, we are baptized into Christ, we eat and drink with Christ, we submit our members to His righteousness, we become partakers of His divine nature. This is salvation, in all forms. Baptism is a means of imparting grace, to participate in His death, be United to him, and receive forgiveness of sins.

Pierow said:

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TxAgPreacher said:

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Pierow said:

---

Why did Jesus say he needed to be baptized? To fulfill all righteousness. We should do the same, if you are born again. But it is grace that saves you through FAITH. One of the ways you show your faith is through baptism.

The Ethiopian eunuchs exuberance is an example I use.

---

You're disobeying if you don't, so how can you be saved if you are openly refusing to fulfill a command? This anti baptism stuff is silly. Before you say oh I think its good but it has nothing to do with salvation, just stop. You're trying to justify a clear violation of a commandment. There is no need for it. If you love me keep my commandments. He commanded you to be baptized so just do it, for the forgiveness of sins, like the scripture says.

---

I'm not disagreeing with you. You should be baptized. But he also said go to the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Are you doing that? Have you given all of your money away and giving it all to the poor? Are you living a perfectly sinless life yet? Are you doing everything he said to do? If so, you don't need him then, do you. It is your faith that saves you. Paul, in his letter to the Romans was very clear. To say that one is not saved merely because they were not dunked in water, is missing the entire point of the gospel.

---

Getting wet is not what saves.

Refusing to will get you condemned.

And also, that those in the household are sanctified by the believing spouse, wife, mother, husband, father. Just like circumcision was the means of conveying the covenant to the whole household. It is part of becoming a member of Christ. To separate it out from salvation is a complete miss as to what salvation is in its essence - not a list of things to do, or a check list, or a catechism to intellectually grasp.

Lots of people on here are judging about what does and does not save you but as I read it there is one Lawgiver and one Judge, and His judgment is true. He doesn't separate the sheep and the goats by whether they were baptized or not.

We know where grace is and we have promises made to us in the scriptures. We do not know where grace isn't, nor should we presume to impart any kind of mechanistic approach to salvation. There's no algorithm or points. He judges based on our hearts, who we are, and what we do - because what we do and who we are is inseparable, one is the direct cause of the other and vice versa.

Zobel said:

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And also, that those in the household are sanctified by the believing spouse, wife, mother, husband, father. Just like circumcision was the means of conveying the covenant to the whole household. It is part of becoming a member of Christ. To separate it out from salvation is a complete miss as to what salvation is in its essence - not a list of things to do, or a check list, or a catechism to intellectually grasp.

---

I have a feeling we would define the Scriptures you're referencing differently and would part ways. But I agree with a lot of what you're saying as it pertains to baptism. And it is a minority view in my own denomination (Southern Baptist) which ironically, because of the name, tends to downplay the importance of baptism.

Zobel said:

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And also, that those in the household are sanctified by the believing spouse, wife, mother, husband, father. Just like circumcision was the means of conveying the covenant to the whole household. It is part of becoming a member of Christ. To separate it out from salvation is a complete miss as to what salvation is in its essence - not a list of things to do, or a check list, or a catechism to intellectually grasp.

---

I am new on this forum, so everybody else might know, but out of curiosity, what tradition are you from, Zobel? Catholic?

I am Orthodox. I was raised southern Baptist, then attended Lutheran churches for several years, then converted to Orthodoxy as an adult.

TxAgPreacher said:

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Zobel said:

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By us:
- A marathon
- A fight (not a shadow-boxing match, but an actual fight for our lives)
- A building
- A violent struggle
- An act of personal discipline
- Work

I'm sure there are others. They're all true, and they all teach us something different.

---

I describe it this way, you can be in the shower (of grace) and slip and fall in the shower. You are still in the shower.(covered by grace) You can also choose to walk away from the shower and reject the faith. (Open rebellion is not covered)

That's why they call it the straight and narrow path. You can fall while on the path and be covered by grace. If you think you can walk away from the path then you are in open rebellion. That's why I bring up practicing righteousness. Its more about the trajectory of your life, and level of overall faithfulness to your Father. One sin won't send you to hell, but if you practice sin you are in trouble. Do works in keeping with repentance, and you're obeying the original gospel call, "repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!"

Quote:

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Matthew 3:8-9 (ESV): Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,

---

Failure to recognize that faith only is wrong, is like saying Jesus is my father, instead of Abraham. Faith without works is dead. There is no need to deemphasize the need for either one, and its dangerous to deemphasize either. You might lead someone to believe its not important to do Gods work. That's why I despise Calvinism.

---

I can tell right away you are a church of Christ. The dogged determination regarding baptism gives you away. I left that particular sect about four years ago. Again, I was fifth generation. I got tired of being told that I needed to help save myself, or keep myself saved, when what I clearly read from scripture is that Jesus finished the job. It is done. I have nothing to offer towards my salvation other than bringing my sin into the equation. My own dear mother, who still attends COC by the way, has lived her entire life thinking and wondering if she's saved. That is so sad. But it's the indoctrination. "Jesus did 95, but you need to do your five. If you don't, you're going to hell". Simply utter nonsense at best, false doctrine at worst. And if you believe that particular dogma, then you have no idea how vile and sinful we really are. We are wretched, poor, and blind. Without our faith in Christ, and the grace he provides, we have nothing but a terrifying eternity to look forward to. Even after you're saved, you're filthy. If you don't think so, just think of every thought you've had over the last month. Would you be willing to let anyone know? Praise God for Jesus!

Have you ever looked up the word "has"? Not "might have", or "could have", or "possibly have", but HAS. It might be a good idea that you did, because it is used over and over.

And this is the testimony: God HAS given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:11

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but HAVE eternal life.
John 3:16

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you HAVE eternal life.
1 John 5:13

For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we HAVE a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
2 Corinthians 5:1

We have eternal life now. If you are in Christ, you have it now. Not after death, now. If you could lose your eternal life that you have now, then it certainly wouldn't be eternal would it? Hopefully you get the point.


I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one.

Jesus keeps me saved. The Holy Spirit within me convicts me of that. If you have to continue to flagellate yourself in hopes that Jesus will still love you, then there's nothing I could say to change your mind.

It's like John said, if they leave, they never were among us to begin with. You can't be a backslider if you've never slid forward to begin with.

Zobel said:

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Lots of people on here are judging about what does and does not save you but as I read it there is one Lawgiver and one Judge, and His judgment is true. He doesn't separate the sheep and the goats by whether they were baptized or not.

We know where grace is and we have promises made to us in the scriptures. We do not know where race isn't, nor should we presume to impart any kind of mechanistic approach to salvation. There's no algorithm or points. He judges based on our hearts, who we are, and what we do - because what we do and who we are is inseparable, one is the direct cause of the other and vice versa.

---

At the end of the day you're right that Jesus will judge us. But it will be based on your deeds, and what he said. We have the criteria in the word. In first John he said he was writing it so we would KNOW ... Many times he said that. You can tell a tree by its fruits. You can fool me, but not God. OP wanted to know how to be saved so I showed him the criteria on which we will be judged.

I don't like it when someone says all you have to do is believe, because that leads people down the path of carnal living.

I also don't like the don't judge me culture. There is a difference between using your best judgment, and being judgmental. Telling someone what the scriptures say in terms of the final judgment is not judgmental... it's a warning.

Zobel said:

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I am Orthodox. I was raised southern Baptist, then attended Lutheran churches for several years, then converted to Orthodoxy as an adult.

---

Thank you! We actually discussed Orthodox theology a fair amount in my Baptist seminary systematic theology class because of their explanation of the Trinity and connected topics. But there's much of it, especially the more mystical aspects that Lutheranism has in common, that are a bit beyond me.

Again, even wondering whether you're saved or not presumes the merit system or the checklist or the bar. You're just trying to figure out if you've done enough, or if you believe Jesus did it all or whatever. The answer is simpler - there is no bar. There is no list. There is no litmus test. You will be judged by the righteous judge based on your words, and deeds, and thoughts. How you loved God, how you loved others. It's not a state you're in when you die, or whether you said a prayer once when you were a kid, or if you intellectually believe He is God, or if you performed miracles in His name, or if you did enough good things. There is no criteria. He will judge, based on YOU. And so we say, we are unprofitable servants, lord have mercy, and we rest in the fact that He is good, and merciful, and loves mankind. But no one should ever presume that they have finished or done enough. What is enough? Not that we have already attained it, but we press on to take hold of that which Christ took hold of us, we work out our salvation, we join in His suffering, we flee from evil, we pursue good, we offer ourselves as living sacrifices and instruments of righteousness - so that, even if we save others, we might ourselves not fall away.

Pierow said:

---

TxAgPreacher said:

---

Zobel said:

---

By us:
- A marathon
- A fight (not a shadow-boxing match, but an actual fight for our lives)
- A building
- A violent struggle
- An act of personal discipline
- Work

I'm sure there are others. They're all true, and they all teach us something different.

---

I describe it this way, you can be in the shower (of grace) and slip and fall in the shower. You are still in the shower.(covered by grace) You can also choose to walk away from the shower and reject the faith. (Open rebellion is not covered)

That's why they call it the straight and narrow path. You can fall while on the path and be covered by grace. If you think you can walk away from the path then you are in open rebellion. That's why I bring up practicing righteousness. Its more about the trajectory of your life, and level of overall faithfulness to your Father. One sin won't send you to hell, but if you practice sin you are in trouble. Do works in keeping with repentance, and you're obeying the original gospel call, "repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!"

Quote:

---

Matthew 3:8-9 (ESV): Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,

---

Failure to recognize that faith only is wrong, is like saying Jesus is my father, instead of Abraham. Faith without works is dead. There is no need to deemphasize the need for either one, and its dangerous to deemphasize either. You might lead someone to believe its not important to do Gods work. That's why I despise Calvinism.

---

I can tell right away you are a church of Christ. The dogged determination regarding baptism gives you away. I left that particular sect about four years ago. Again, I was fifth generation. I got tired of being told that I needed to help save myself, or keep myself saved, when what I clearly read from scripture is that Jesus finished the job. It is done. I have nothing to offer towards my salvation other than bringing my sin into the equation. My own dear mother, who still attends COC by the way, has lived her entire life thinking and wondering if she's saved. That is so sad. But it's the indoctrination. "Jesus did 95, but you need to do your five. If you don't, you're going to hell". Simply utter nonsense at best, false doctrine at worst. And if you believe that particular dogma, then you have no idea how vile and sinful we really are. We are wretched, poor, and blind. Without our faith in Christ, and the grace he provides, we have nothing but a terrifying eternity to look forward to. Even after you're saved, you're filthy. If you don't think so, just think of every thought you've had over the last month. Would you be willing to let anyone know? Praise God for Jesus!

Have you ever looked up the word "has"? Not "might have", or "could have", or "possibly have", but HAS. It might be a good idea that you did, because it is used over and over.

And this is the testimony: God HAS given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:11

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but HAVE eternal life.
John 3:16

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you HAVE eternal life.
1 John 5:13

For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we HAVE a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
2 Corinthians 5:1

We have eternal life now. If you are in Christ, you have it now. Not after death, now. If you could lose your eternal life that you have now, then it certainly wouldn't be eternal would it? Hopefully you get the point.


I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one.

Jesus keeps me saved. The Holy Spirit within me convicts me of that. If you have to continue to flagellate yourself in hopes that Jesus will still love you, then there's nothing I could say to change your mind.

It's like John said, if they leave, they never were among us to begin with. You can't be a backslider if you've never slid forward to begin with.

---

You assume much. I believe that it is finished, and that Jesus' sacrifice is was more than enough to cover me with his grace, so long as I don't wonder off into open rebellion.

Zobel said:

---

Again, even wondering whether you're saved or not presumes the merit system or the checklist or the bar. You're just trying to figure out if you've done enough, or if you believe Jesus did it all or whatever. The answer is simpler - there is no bar. There is no list. There is no litmus test. You will be judged by the righteous judge based on your words, and deeds, and thoughts. How you loved God, how you loved others. It's not a state you're in when you die, or whether you said a prayer once when you were a kid, or if you intellectually believe He is God, or if you performed miracles in His name, or if you did enough good things. There is no criteria. He will judge, based on YOU. And so we say, we are unprofitable servants, lord have mercy, and we rest in the fact that He is good, and merciful, and loves mankind. But no one should ever presume that they have finished or done enough. What is enough? Not that we have already attained it, but we press on to take hold of that which Christ took hold of us, we work out our salvation, we join in His suffering, we flee from evil, we pursue good, we offer ourselves as living sacrifices and instruments of righteousness - so that, even if we save others, we might ourselves not fall away.

---

You can do nothing on your own. If you do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, you do not have Christ. If you still think you're going to be judged for sins, you really don't have the gospel at all. We will be judged by our good deeds, and what we did in and outside of the body, and receive different crowns (which we will leave at Jesus's feet anyway), but we will not be judged for our sins. Jesus nailed everyone of them to the cross.

It's a fine line. We see the sin, but not the repentance. There's a famous story of a monk who would get drunk every day. He scandalized pilgrims and the brothers, and one day he died. The brothers were relive and went to tell the elder the monk was dead. The elder said he knew: he saw the angels come to the monks death bed that night. The monks said no, father, you're thinking of the wrong brother. And he told them - that monk was taken from his family as a child by the Turks. He was forced to drink alcohol first so he would not cry when his family was fleeing the Turks and later by Turkish soldiers for their amusement. He'd been an alcoholic from childhood. When he came to the monastery he asked what he should do and each year he struggled to reduce how much he drank by one drink per year. By the time he died he was down to only a few, but he still got drunk from the small amount.

We saw a weak man, but God saw a warrior. We see the sin, God sees the repentance. He judges both the work and the effort. He judges the heart. We must never condemn others or take what is His to ours. We must never say if you do this you will be condemned - how can we know that? We know what is sin, but St Paul also says what a man reckons as sin to himself is sin. God will judge. We must pray for the salvation of all.

Pierow said:

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Zobel said:

---

Again, even wondering whether you're saved or not presumes the merit system or the checklist or the bar. You're just trying to figure out if you've done enough, or if you believe Jesus did it all or whatever. The answer is simpler - there is no bar. There is no list. There is no litmus test. You will be judged by the righteous judge based on your words, and deeds, and thoughts. How you loved God, how you loved others. It's not a state you're in when you die, or whether you said a prayer once when you were a kid, or if you intellectually believe He is God, or if you performed miracles in His name, or if you did enough good things. There is no criteria. He will judge, based on YOU. And so we say, we are unprofitable servants, lord have mercy, and we rest in the fact that He is good, and merciful, and loves mankind. But no one should ever presume that they have finished or done enough. What is enough? Not that we have already attained it, but we press on to take hold of that which Christ took hold of us, we work out our salvation, we join in His suffering, we flee from evil, we pursue good, we offer ourselves as living sacrifices and instruments of righteousness - so that, even if we save others, we might ourselves not fall away.

---

You can do nothing on your own. If you do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, you do not have Christ. If you still think you're going to be judged for sins, you really don't have the gospel at all. We will be judged by our good deeds, and what we did in and outside of the body, and receive different crowns (which we will leave at Jesus's feet anyway), but we will not be judged for our sins. Jesus nailed everyone of them to the cross.

---

The Spirit is in me. You worry about you.

Who said anything about on your own? What Christian is on their own? But the indwelling of the Spirit doesn't turn you into a holy robot. St Paul speaks to Christians telling them not to choose sin, because it leads to death. Christ Jesus took all of the sins of the world, yes, but what is not repented from is not forgiven. Don't we pray daily, forgive us as we forgive others? Doesn't the scripture say that the measure we use will be measured to us? Baptism is not magic, but neither is confession or belief. We can still grieve the Spirit. We can defile the temple.

If you go on sinning in defiance and do not repent you will absolutely be subject to judgment. You can not do evil without consequence as a believer. But thank God He has given us means to find forgiveness for our sins!

Read the warnings and admonitions of St Paul in 1 Cor 10.

It's not something you can teach in a classroom, and I'll be the person teaching it wasn't orthodox.

It is very much experiential. I find modern evangelical worship to have an unspoken element of Gnosticism in that it is centered on this mental worship, then a mental hearing / receiving / understanding / teaching of the scriptures. Orthodoxy is not like this, it is visceral, experiential, you worship with your body and your mind, your eyes and ears and nose and mouth. You "taste and see that the Lord is good" and in all of that, you experience the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ. Over time, I found myself understanding things based on this experience in very different ways. As st Maximos said, many have said much about love but we have love as love's teacher. That kind of experience changes how you look at things.