Not to say I am Jesus but did He not run counter to 98 percent?
Blue star my friend.k2aggie07 said:
The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth; it is the Body of Christ.
We're not looking for unity in numbers but unity of Faith. We don't look for unity with each other but instead we find unity in Christ, by union with Him. This comes from participation in Grace. Spiritual knowledge and union are one and the same thing.
You can't be in communion with Christ by yourself.
k2aggie07 said:
The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth; it is the Body of Christ.
We're not looking for unity in numbers but unity of Faith. We don't look for unity with each other but instead we find unity in Christ, by union with Him. This comes from participation in Grace. Spiritual knowledge and union are one and the same thing.
You can't be in communion with Christ by yourself.
.k2aggie07 said:
The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth; it is the Body of Christ.
We're not looking for unity in numbers but unity of Faith. We don't look for unity with each other but instead we find unity in Christ, by union with Him. This comes from participation in Grace. Spiritual knowledge and union are one and the same thing.
You can't be in communion with Christ by yourself.
Making strides as this if the first time you have been at least somewhat conciliatory on this thread.7thGenTexan said:k2aggie07 said:
The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth; it is the Body of Christ.
We're not looking for unity in numbers but unity of Faith. We don't look for unity with each other but instead we find unity in Christ, by union with Him. This comes from participation in Grace. Spiritual knowledge and union are one and the same thing.
You can't be in communion with Christ by yourself.
Not saying this is right or wrong because I really don't know what it means. What do you mean by spiritual knowledge and union are the same thing?
dermdoc said:Making strides as this if the first time you have been at least somewhat conciliatory on this thread.7thGenTexan said:k2aggie07 said:
The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth; it is the Body of Christ.
We're not looking for unity in numbers but unity of Faith. We don't look for unity with each other but instead we find unity in Christ, by union with Him. This comes from participation in Grace. Spiritual knowledge and union are one and the same thing.
You can't be in communion with Christ by yourself.
Not saying this is right or wrong because I really don't know what it means. What do you mean by spiritual knowledge and union are the same thing?
dermdoc said:
Sounds like you are surrounded by a great church. Prayers for knowledge for all of us.
dermdoc said:
1 Corinthians 9 19-23. Try it some time.
Because spiritual knowledge is knowledge of God, revelation. God isn't merely true, He is Truth. The only way to find Truth is to find God, and to know God. God didn't give us a book, He gave us Himself, His body the Church, and apostles, who are as one with Him as He is with the Father.7thGenTexan said:k2aggie07 said:
The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth; it is the Body of Christ.
We're not looking for unity in numbers but unity of Faith. We don't look for unity with each other but instead we find unity in Christ, by union with Him. This comes from participation in Grace. Spiritual knowledge and union are one and the same thing.
You can't be in communion with Christ by yourself.
Not saying this is right or wrong because I really don't know what it means. What do you mean by spiritual knowledge and union are the same thing?
And His prayer for us:Quote:
"When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you."
Spiritual knowledge is knowledge of God and of the Truth, and it's not discoverable by our efforts. God is ineffable and unknowable. Knowledge comes by Grace, from Him, and Grace is union with Him.Quote:
"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
"O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."
k2aggie07 said:Because spiritual knowledge is knowledge of God, revelation. God isn't merely true, He is Truth. The only way to find Truth is to find God, and to know God. God didn't give us a book, He gave us Himself, His body the Church, and apostles, who are as one with Him as He is with the Father.7thGenTexan said:k2aggie07 said:
The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth; it is the Body of Christ.
We're not looking for unity in numbers but unity of Faith. We don't look for unity with each other but instead we find unity in Christ, by union with Him. This comes from participation in Grace. Spiritual knowledge and union are one and the same thing.
You can't be in communion with Christ by yourself.
Not saying this is right or wrong because I really don't know what it means. What do you mean by spiritual knowledge and union are the same thing?
Consider Christ's promise to the Apostles:And His prayer for us:Quote:
"When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you."Spiritual knowledge is knowledge of God and of the Truth, and it's not discoverable by our efforts. God is ineffable and unknowable. Knowledge comes by Grace, from Him, and Grace is union with Him.Quote:
"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
"O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."
So... God is the source of knowledge and Truth, and the only way to aspire to Truth is through Him.
I do not know what that has to do with any of the discussion here but you were upset with retired ag before you honed in on the "lies" of Bryan. To me it appears you really get upset whenever somebody has a different interpretation of Scripture than you because there are no nuances. It is all black and white.7thGenTexan said:dermdoc said:
1 Corinthians 9 19-23. Try it some time.
"When in Rome" doesn't mean agreeing with lies, dermdoc. We don't know for certain how Paul died, but it was most likely by beheading in Rome.
7thGenTexan said:AgLiving06 said:Bryanisbest said:AgLiving06 said:Bryanisbest said:Martin Q. Blank said:I'll never know that and neither will you.Bryanisbest said:Somehow I suspect you really don't want me to have a blessed and terrific day. And that is okay. I pray you will come to know how much God loves you right now and forever.Martin Q. Blank said:yah, when RetiredAg gets backed into a corner, he does the same thing. Blessings and have a terrific day!Quote:
I have enjoyed the joust MQB but I will have to stop answering your questions based on what Retired Ag posted to me earlier in this thread. God bless you, Sir
We can continue our conversation, though. I'm interested to learn how Satan told Abraham to kill Isaac and the writer of Hebrews commends Abraham for believing him.
Answer: In the same way God commended Job in Job 42 for his faith even though it was not God, but Satan, who actually tested and tempted Job throughout the book of Job.
There's a logical flaw here though.
Your claim boils down to the OT being wrong and misapplying Satan's work to God.
Jesus was obviously THE expert or source on all things Biblical right? We see Him quote the OT repeatedly and He fulfilled the prophecies of the OT.
However, during all of that time, we never see Jesus make the same "correction" to the OT that you are.
So I guess what you are really saying is that not only was "God the Father" limited, but Jesus was also unaware that the OT was wrong?
Off the cuff several corrections to OT by Jesus come to mine:
1. He won't have the woman stoned as commanded by Old Testament;
2. He won't go with sin being punished to the fourth generation as set forth in Ex 20:2. See John 9:1-4;
3. He rebuked His two disciples when they have misconstrued a mass killing in 2 Kings 1 as being an act of God. See Luke 9:52-56;
4. People in OT like Moses in Ex 33 claimed to have seen God and talked to Him. Jesus says about three times in John "no one has ever seen God," and that He had come to declare Him. John 1:18 being the first of the three;
5. In Matt 5, He gives the OT take on theology then corrects it with "But I say . . . (Something different from what OT says follows );
6. Numerous times He takes issue with the law of the Sabbath.
7. The OT (ie Deut 28) sets forth a performance-based relationship with God. Jesus told us of a God who is NOT PERFROMANCE-BASED but who is unconditional with His love and blessing. Luke 6:35.
I could go on with a thorough discussion of Jesus' corrections to OT. The main one is "Love your enemies" and "be kind to the evil and the good" concepts the OT has no mention or understanding of. Luke 6:35 and Matt 5:38-48
I don't think the OT is wrong. I think a superficial reading of it is wrong. Example: a superficial reading of Gen 22 and Gen 32 and 2 Kings 1 and Moses talking to "God" at Sinai would lead one to believe that God is committing an essentially evil act or, at least acting out of character but, in light of further revelation or closer reading, we find that it was not God but an angel or an evil spirit.
Now you are comparing Apples and Oranges.
There is a significant difference between clarifying the Law of the OT vs saying what was written was wrong. Even you point out "but I say..." which certainly is Jesus further clarifying the Law (i.e. Jesus says lust is also adultery. He doesn't say it's not a sin anymore).
But you do open up another contradiction in your view point. Now your view of the Bible leads to inherent contradictions and incorrect information.
So if you know the OT is incorrect, what makes you think the NT is correct? Maybe Satan is tricking us in the NT into believing a view of Jesus that is completely wrong. It appears to be arbitrary.
1. The people who wanted to stone her weren't following the law. She was not accused with the male adulterer and she was not tried before the proper Jewish authorities - which couldn't be done at that time without the authorization of the Roman authorities. So they were actually sinning right then and there and the required punishment under the law for them would have been death.
2. He doesn't say that at all. You just made that up. He says:
9 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3 Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. 4 must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
3. He doesn't say that at all. You just made that up. We've already been over this. It was not the time to call down fire then, but Jesus says nothing about it being a sin when Elijah did it.
4. Obviously there are different levels of seeing God. The people he was talking to were seeing God when they saw Jesus. Is a bush God? Steven mentions an Angel of the Lord appearing in the bush, but saw no contradiction as he says:
30 "And when forty years had passed, an Angel of the Lord[f] appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush, in the wilderness of Mount Sinai. 31 When Moses saw it, he marveled at the sight; and as he drew near to observe, the voice of the Lord came to him, 32 saying, 'I am the God of your fathersthe God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' And Moses trembled and dared not look. 33 'Then the Lord said to him, "Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground. 34 I have surely seen the oppression of My people who are in Egypt; I have heard their groaning and have come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send you to Egypt."'
5. In Matthew 5 he says that not one jot of the law would be removed! He is obviously expounding in the law and showing them the deeper meanings.
To be continued.
Bryanisbest said:7thGenTexan said:Bryanisbest said:7thGenTexan said:Bryanisbest said:
Easy: Anything or anyone whose character does not line up with the character of Jesus Christ and the attributes of the person He describes as His Father in Heaven, "the only true God (John 17:3)", is not God and may be an imposter trying to pass himself off as God. Most of Christendom is deceived in this.
I see an imposter alright.
Imposters are aware of who they are. The main imposter is Satan, "the god of this world", who has blinded the minds of many, especially religious people. 2 Cor 4:4-6.
According to your theology, Satan blinded Moses, Elijah, David, all the prophets of the OT, John the Baptist, Apostle Paul, Peter, John, and Jesus himself. Have you ever considered that maybe you have been blinded?
Yes, I sure have considered that. My views are different from 98 percent of Christians. I questioned whether it might just be me. I haven't decided that it is, however.
Quote:
33 When they heard this, they were furious and plotted to kill them. 34 Then one in the council stood up, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in respect by all the people, and commanded them to put the apostles outside for a little while. 35 And he said to them: "Men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what you intend to do regarding these men. 36 For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody. A number of men, about four hundred, joined him. He was slain, and all who obeyed him were scattered and came to nothing. 37 After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census, and drew away many people after him. He also perished, and all who obeyed him were dispersed. 38 And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; 39 but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow itlest you even be found to fight against God."
AgLiving06 said:7thGenTexan said:AgLiving06 said:Bryanisbest said:AgLiving06 said:Bryanisbest said:Martin Q. Blank said:I'll never know that and neither will you.Bryanisbest said:Somehow I suspect you really don't want me to have a blessed and terrific day. And that is okay. I pray you will come to know how much God loves you right now and forever.Martin Q. Blank said:yah, when RetiredAg gets backed into a corner, he does the same thing. Blessings and have a terrific day!Quote:
I have enjoyed the joust MQB but I will have to stop answering your questions based on what Retired Ag posted to me earlier in this thread. God bless you, Sir
We can continue our conversation, though. I'm interested to learn how Satan told Abraham to kill Isaac and the writer of Hebrews commends Abraham for believing him.
Answer: In the same way God commended Job in Job 42 for his faith even though it was not God, but Satan, who actually tested and tempted Job throughout the book of Job.
There's a logical flaw here though.
Your claim boils down to the OT being wrong and misapplying Satan's work to God.
Jesus was obviously THE expert or source on all things Biblical right? We see Him quote the OT repeatedly and He fulfilled the prophecies of the OT.
However, during all of that time, we never see Jesus make the same "correction" to the OT that you are.
So I guess what you are really saying is that not only was "God the Father" limited, but Jesus was also unaware that the OT was wrong?
Off the cuff several corrections to OT by Jesus come to mine:
1. He won't have the woman stoned as commanded by Old Testament;
2. He won't go with sin being punished to the fourth generation as set forth in Ex 20:2. See John 9:1-4;
3. He rebuked His two disciples when they have misconstrued a mass killing in 2 Kings 1 as being an act of God. See Luke 9:52-56;
4. People in OT like Moses in Ex 33 claimed to have seen God and talked to Him. Jesus says about three times in John "no one has ever seen God," and that He had come to declare Him. John 1:18 being the first of the three;
5. In Matt 5, He gives the OT take on theology then corrects it with "But I say . . . (Something different from what OT says follows );
6. Numerous times He takes issue with the law of the Sabbath.
7. The OT (ie Deut 28) sets forth a performance-based relationship with God. Jesus told us of a God who is NOT PERFROMANCE-BASED but who is unconditional with His love and blessing. Luke 6:35.
I could go on with a thorough discussion of Jesus' corrections to OT. The main one is "Love your enemies" and "be kind to the evil and the good" concepts the OT has no mention or understanding of. Luke 6:35 and Matt 5:38-48
I don't think the OT is wrong. I think a superficial reading of it is wrong. Example: a superficial reading of Gen 22 and Gen 32 and 2 Kings 1 and Moses talking to "God" at Sinai would lead one to believe that God is committing an essentially evil act or, at least acting out of character but, in light of further revelation or closer reading, we find that it was not God but an angel or an evil spirit.
Now you are comparing Apples and Oranges.
There is a significant difference between clarifying the Law of the OT vs saying what was written was wrong. Even you point out "but I say..." which certainly is Jesus further clarifying the Law (i.e. Jesus says lust is also adultery. He doesn't say it's not a sin anymore).
But you do open up another contradiction in your view point. Now your view of the Bible leads to inherent contradictions and incorrect information.
So if you know the OT is incorrect, what makes you think the NT is correct? Maybe Satan is tricking us in the NT into believing a view of Jesus that is completely wrong. It appears to be arbitrary.
1. The people who wanted to stone her weren't following the law. She was not accused with the male adulterer and she was not tried before the proper Jewish authorities - which couldn't be done at that time without the authorization of the Roman authorities. So they were actually sinning right then and there and the required punishment under the law for them would have been death.
2. He doesn't say that at all. You just made that up. He says:
9 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3 Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. 4 must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
3. He doesn't say that at all. You just made that up. We've already been over this. It was not the time to call down fire then, but Jesus says nothing about it being a sin when Elijah did it.
4. Obviously there are different levels of seeing God. The people he was talking to were seeing God when they saw Jesus. Is a bush God? Steven mentions an Angel of the Lord appearing in the bush, but saw no contradiction as he says:
30 "And when forty years had passed, an Angel of the Lord[f] appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush, in the wilderness of Mount Sinai. 31 When Moses saw it, he marveled at the sight; and as he drew near to observe, the voice of the Lord came to him, 32 saying, 'I am the God of your fathersthe God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' And Moses trembled and dared not look. 33 'Then the Lord said to him, "Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground. 34 I have surely seen the oppression of My people who are in Egypt; I have heard their groaning and have come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send you to Egypt."'
5. In Matthew 5 he says that not one jot of the law would be removed! He is obviously expounding in the law and showing them the deeper meanings.
To be continued.
I started to do this as well, but realized it wasn't worth it with Bryan. Going point by point is not helpful. He has to come to the realization that his belief system is a bunch of contradictions.
dermdoc said:
This seems to upset you more than somebody who does not believe or has lost their faith.
And forgive me if I am wrong, but I do not remember you posting this much on atheist/agnostic threads. We Christians are funny people. And what is weird is it is not just "fundamentalists" as I love me some Tampa Bay Ag. But he handles everything with respect and love.
dermdoc said:
Cool. May I ask your denomination?
dermdoc said:
Sounds like you are surrounded by a great church. Prayers for knowledge for all of us.
Thank you and I think a lot of it had to do with my sister's death after two and a half years of hell from cancer. Taught me a lot. I live in CS but go back to Beaumont three nights a week and moved in with my brother in law to keep him company.swimmerbabe11 said:dermdoc said:
Sounds like you are surrounded by a great church. Prayers for knowledge for all of us.
You are a sweetheart. Whatever kool aid youve been drinking lately, I want some of that. You've been full of positive energy and love lately (as hippie as that sounds but you know what I mean)
derm,dermdoc said:Thank you and I think a lot of it had to do with my sister's death after two and a half years of hell from cancer. Taught me a lot. I live in CS but go back to Beaumont three nights a week and moved in with my brother in law to keep him company.swimmerbabe11 said:dermdoc said:
Sounds like you are surrounded by a great church. Prayers for knowledge for all of us.
You are a sweetheart. Whatever kool aid youve been drinking lately, I want some of that. You've been full of positive energy and love lately (as hippie as that sounds but you know what I mean)
We drink wine, watch sports, and he is able to "decant" Bev's death. He is a man of few words and has a strong faith but he feels comfortable talking to me. Lots of peace and love.
My wife and I always make a motto for the year and this year is "healing and joy". Hopefully it will work out. And it is very, very hard to be around my wife long and not smile.
And I really appreciated your posts and supports during my sister's illness and death. Means more than any of y'all know.
Peace
swimmerbabe11 said:
Do you listen to Jordan Cooper? You should read his book Christification.
swimmerbabe11 said:
Christification is a fantastic book that talks about Lutheran Theosis. I wouldn't mind lending you my copy if you want to give me your email address so I can get an address to mail it to.
k2aggie07 said:
Hey bud you're in Houston right? If you need anything pm me.