Bryanisbest said:

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Although not willing to say it directly, it is now clear that several of you think God kills nursing babies. How do you trust a God who has a nature that would do that?

Marcion took a pen knife to the Bible. I don't do that but I believe there is a progressive revelation in the Bible. Example Ex 20 indicates God handed down the Law to Moses. But New Testament reveals it was angels who did it. See my scriptural citations of Luke, Stephen and Paul above mentioned.

2 Sam 24:1 says God killed thousands but the writer 500 years later reveals it was actually Satan in 1 Chron 21:1. 2 Kings 1 make it seem as though God incinerated 102 people. Jesus shoots that down in Luke 9:52-56 Old KJV. God allows the Bible to record that He killed people in Old Testament. He takes the blame for a lot of things Satan did. God is alleged to have taken up the sword to kill thousands in places in Old Testament. But Jesus reveals that if you take up the sword against anyone you will die by your own sword. Matt 26:52. Gen 22 seems to say God played a dirty trick on Abraham tempting him to kill Isaac. As we examine all passages dealing with that we find that it was also an angel. Same thing with the assault against Jacob in Gen 32. It also was an angel.

I don't believe in taking a pen knife to the Bible as did Marcion. I do think there is a progressive revelation of who the actual culprit was in the Old Testament.

Satan and his fallen angels are evil angels. They have the capacity to disguise themselves as good. 2 Cor 11:13-15

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7thGenTexan said:

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Another possibility is that the belief was wrong. Marcion did what Bryan is doing. He found verses (books actually) from the canon (there actually was one that was even by atheist admission hundreds of years old) that made him uncomfortable and blamed them on Satan (or a demiurge).

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It's true I don't think he was right in total and the demiurge was a convienient way out of a real problem. But I don't think it's likely that god is a silly angry child as often depicted.

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I realize the milquetoast men of the modern world consider it enlightened to live next door to those who would destroy you, and let them **** your daughters and sisters, but the Israelites didn't have that luxury (two thousand years of civilizing Christian culture).

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This is where the argument dies and why both people today and marcionites reason as they do. This excuse falls flat and so does your characterization of those who would dismiss it as folly. You need not be any kind of pacifist to look at the bible as indefensible. There is a stark difference in genocide and self defense. A stark difference on protecting your daughters and raping the wives and daughters of those you conquered. A stark difference between doing violence to maintain peace and enslaving your enemies.

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In any case, maybe God felt the world couldn't be enlightened with people like the Amalekites populating it. Some seeds maybe need to be destroyed.

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Who created the amalekites? How much more broken were they than the jews? Explain what was so vile in their DNA that the babes must be destroyed. This is the problem with what you are arguing here, you attest that the greatest mind in existence could think of nothing better than to kill all the men, kill all the mothers, kill all the babies and children, and keep the virgin girls as sex slaves.

Yes it's possible that god could be this way. But I don't think it's to credible to consider the god of the universe less thoughtful and merciful than common men.

Agree. Except I would have capitalized God.

And I am not a pacifist.

And you really ought to read Greg Boyd's book retired ag mentioned. As I stated, I am not a pacifist and do not agree with all of it. But a lot of it I do agree with as far as viewing the Old Testament through the cross and the crucified Christ.

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Marcion did what Bryan is doing. He found verses (books actually) from the canon (there actually was one that was even by atheist admission hundreds of years old) that made him uncomfortable and blamed them on Satan (or a demiurge).

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This isn't what Bryan or those that share this interpretation are doing. It's not about passages that make us "uncomfortable". It's reading those passages with something the OT authors did not possess...the exact revelation of God's very nature. Unlike the OT authors, we know exactly what God looks like. We know what His nature looks like because we have Jesus. So, it's taking those passages that look nothing like Christ, and instead of just discarding them as Marcion, we seek to dig deeper beyond the culturally-conditioned surface that God accommodates to understand how they point to Christ.

Blue star and agree. But I do not think we are going to change any minds on here.

Peace

Aggrad08 said:

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7thGenTexan said:

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Another possibility is that the belief was wrong. Marcion did what Bryan is doing. He found verses (books actually) from the canon (there actually was one that was even by atheist admission hundreds of years old) that made him uncomfortable and blamed them on Satan (or a demiurge).

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It's true I don't think he was right in total and the demiurge was a convienient way out of a real problem. But I don't think it's likely that god is a silly angry child as often depicted.

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I realize the milquetoast men of the modern world consider it enlightened to live next door to those who would destroy you, and let them **** your daughters and sisters, but the Israelites didn't have that luxury (two thousand years of civilizing Christian culture).

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This is where the argument dies and why both people today and marcionites reason as they do. This excuse falls flat and so does your characterization of those who would dismiss it as folly. You need not be any kind of pacifist to look at the bible as indefensible. There is a stark difference in genocide and self defense. A stark difference on protecting your daughters and raping the wives and daughters of those you conquered. A stark difference between doing violence to maintain peace and enslaving your enemies.

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In any case, maybe God felt the world couldn't be enlightened with people like the Amalekites populating it. Some seeds maybe need to be destroyed.

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Who created the amalekites? How much more broken were they than the jews? Explain what was so vile in their DNA that the babes must be destroyed. This is the problem with what you are arguing here, you attest that the greatest mind in existence could think of nothing better than to kill all the men, kill all the mothers, kill all the babies and children, and keep the virgin girls as sex slaves.

Yes it's possible that god could be this way. But I don't think it's to credible to consider the god of the universe less thoughtful and merciful than common men.

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I don't think it's credible for creation to hold the creator to the conditions placed on the creation. Sort of futile, don't you think? How is it murder for God to take human life? Is there even such a thing as cause and effect in a realm that transcends space and time? Who are we?

We haven't a clue what it would be like to live in a tribal society in proximity to other tribes who sacrificed humans (amongst many other things) and seek your destruction. We have no understanding of their blood oaths to avenge their defeated ancestors. Do you know whether Amalekites looked like Israelites? Do you think the children would never have known about their fathers being slaughtered? This was largely kill or be killed, enslave or be enslaved. Amalek had been attempting to destroy Israel for hundreds of years.

Bryan hasn't addressed the many posted verses from the New Testament that directly contradict his assertions. According to scripture, God not only has destroyed humans (including nursing babies), but will do so again.

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2 Sam 24:1 says God killed thousands but the writer 500 years later reveals it was actually Satan in 1 Chron 21:1

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There is an apparent contradiction here, but this is about who moved David to take a census, not kill thousands of people. And Joab immediately questions why David is doing it a couple of verses later in 2 Samuel. Also, I read this regarding the different numbers listed in each passage:

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The figures in 1 Chronicles are 1,100,000 men in Israel and 470,000 in Judah, but the chronicler wrote that the Levites and Benjamites were not included (1 Chron. 21:5-6). The reconciliation of the data may lie in the possibility that 1,100,000 describes the grand total for Israel including the standing army which consisted of 12 units of 24,000 men each (288,000, 1 Chron. 27:1-15) plus 12,000 especially attached to Jerusalem and the chariot cities (2 Chron. 1:14). These 300,000 subtracted from 1,100,000 would yield the 800,000 figure in 2 Samuel 24:9. Also the chronicler may not have included the 30,000-man standing army of Judah (6:1) whereas they were included in chapter 24. This would raise the 470,000 total of Chronicles to the 500,000 of Samuel. This is only one solution, but with so little information available as to how the sums were obtained nothing further can be said with certainty.

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2 Kings 1 make it seem as though God incinerated 102 people. Jesus shoots that down in Luke 9:52-56 Old KJV

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Nowhere does Jesus say that the account in 2 Kings 1 was incorrect. He states that it won't be done again because his current mission (as the son of man) was to save, not destroy. I don't know of anyone who suggests that Jesus came as a human military leader when he became a man.

So your view of God is that He can change character from being loving to killing just because He is God? And fwiw, I agree that God can do whatever He wants. I also believe that since God revealed himself through Christ that I can be confident that is who He really is. And nobody on here is trying to change God or say God can not do whatever He wants.

Peace.

dermdoc said:

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So your view of God is that He can change character from being loving to killing just because He is God? And fwiw, I agree that God can do whatever He wants. I also believe that since God revealed himself through Christ that I can be confident that is who He really is. And nobody on here is trying to change God or say God can not do whatever He wants.

Peace.

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Are humans capable of loving and killing?

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I don't think it's credible for creation to hold the creator to the conditions placed on the creation. Sort of futile, don't you think? How is it murder for God to take human life? Is there even such a thing as cause and effect in a realm that transcends space and time? Who are we?

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I actually think quite the opposite. It's seems to be a weak excuse to say that it's wrong to do harm (which is basically what we are arguing, when is it ok to harm), unless necessary, unless you are strong enough. It's murder for god to take a life sometimes just as it is for humans. Sometimes it could be justified as defense for others. It's torture for god to torture, nothing about being all powerful changes what is happening and why we view that as a bad thing. If temporal things don't matter across vast spacetime than I don't see how you can reconcile that with a god quite fixated about temporal actions, even seemingly trivial ones. If anything, the conditions by which god could do harm are far more limited.

You've got two options if you want to attribute all the OT to the will of god, either god doesn't consider harm a big deal, or he wasn't smart enough to figure an alternative. You make god vile or vapid.

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We haven't a clue what it would be like to live in a tribal society in proximity to other tribes who sacrificed humans (amongst many other things) and seek your destruction.

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This is just a vague emotional plea not an intellectual one. We've had plenty of extremely dangerous enemies in modern times, ones who would commit mass genocide, who would seek absolute destruction. It didn't require their own methods to defeat them. It took war yes, but it didn't take genocide, rape, or slavery. They simply aren't required to defeat an enemy.

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We have no understanding of their blood oaths to avenge their defeated ancestors. Do you know whether Amalekites looked like Israelites? Do you think the children would never have known about their fathers being slaughtered? This was largely kill or be killed, enslave or be enslaved. Amalek had been attempting to destroy Israel for hundreds of years.

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Safe bet is amalekites looked a lot like jews. Lot's of children the world over have known about their fathers dying violent deaths. And? Describe how this requires killing the babes, killing the children, and raping the virgins. Describe why you must make a defeated enemy a slave. Walk me through it. Because even ancient babylon didn't practice this around very similar time periods. And think for 10s about a viable alternative. I bet you can do better in 10 seconds than a supposedly omniscient being.

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Bryan hasn't addressed the many posted verses from the New Testament that directly contradict his assertions. According to scripture, God not only has destroyed humans (including nursing babies), but will do so again.

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It also strongly implies god will torture most mankind for all eternity yet many christians abandon this belief also as being beneath a loving god. There in fact is a lot of leeway if you don't presume ahead of time every last dot and tittle is divine and every tradition beyond questioning.

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Gen 22 seems to say God played a dirty trick on Abraham tempting him to kill Isaac. As we examine all passages dealing with that we find that it was also an angel.

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The New Testament has this to say about the matter (in Hebrews 11):

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called," 19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

7thGenTexan said:

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dermdoc said:

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So your view of God is that He can change character from being loving to killing just because He is God? And fwiw, I agree that God can do whatever He wants. I also believe that since God revealed himself through Christ that I can be confident that is who He really is. And nobody on here is trying to change God or say God can not do whatever He wants.

Peace.

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Are humans capable of loving and killing?

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One is not loving the human they are killing. They may try to rationalize it by saying that they are loving those they are protecting, but they are not loving those that they kill.

I don't see how it's compatible w/ the definition Paul gave us. Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Or the definition Christ gave us. There's no greater love than to lay down one's life for another. That doesn't include killing. It's how we imitate the Good Shepherd, who lays His life down for His sheep. It's how we reflect Christ crucified to the world, that even while we were His enemies, He died for us.

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You've got two options if you want to attribute all the OT to the will of god, either god doesn't consider harm a big deal, or he wasn't smart enough to figure an alternative. You make god vile or vapid.

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These are your limited options. You have ten seconds; I'm sure you can think of some more. I don't require God to operate the same way in every situation.

7thGenTexan said:

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You've got two options if you want to attribute all the OT to the will of god, either god doesn't consider harm a big deal, or he wasn't smart enough to figure an alternative. You make god vile or vapid.

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These are your limited options. You have ten seconds; I'm sure you can think of some more. I don't require God to operate the same way in every situation.

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Ah the capricious god, let's add that one in the not too thoughtful category.

Aggrad08 said:

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7thGenTexan said:

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You've got two options if you want to attribute all the OT to the will of god, either god doesn't consider harm a big deal, or he wasn't smart enough to figure an alternative. You make god vile or vapid.

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These are your limited options. You have ten seconds; I'm sure you can think of some more. I don't require God to operate the same way in every situation.

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Ah the capricious god, let's add that one in the not too thoughtful category.

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Ah, the man who doesn't recognize that different situations are different. Did God change or did the circumstances?

Another aspect of the genocide of the Amalekites is that God supposedly ordered the mass murder, including infants, for something that occurred 400 years prior as the Israelites were leaving Egypt. For as often as we hear people in America say "I never owned a slave! Why should I pay for the sins of my ancestors?!", we then hear many of those same people defend the genocide of the Amalekites. It just doesn't make sense. It requires one hold a view of God that depends on moral relativism.

How can we ever say genocide is wrong, when it becomes "right" at the whim of God?

7thGenTexan said:

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Ah, the man who doesn't recognize that different situations are different. Did God change or did the circumstances?

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If you want to discuss the particular's of that circumstance by all means. Address the post above. As far as I can tell that excuse fall very flat. Intellectually justify how rape, slavery, and genocide were required in this particular situation.

RetiredAg said:

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7thGenTexan said:

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dermdoc said:

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So your view of God is that He can change character from being loving to killing just because He is God? And fwiw, I agree that God can do whatever He wants. I also believe that since God revealed himself through Christ that I can be confident that is who He really is. And nobody on here is trying to change God or say God can not do whatever He wants.

Peace.

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Are humans capable of loving and killing?

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One is not loving the human they are killing. They may try to rationalize it by saying that they are loving those they are protecting, but they are not loving those that they kill.

I don't see how it's compatible w/ the definition Paul gave us. Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Or the definition Christ gave us. There's no greater love than to lay down one's life for another. That doesn't include killing. It's how we imitate the Good Shepherd, who lays His life down for His sheep. It's how we reflect Christ crucified to the world, that even while we were His enemies, He died for us.

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This is what you want, not what the Bible says. You're going to have to refute the scriptures listed. But I knew from the beginning of this discussion that you would not.

Agreed. To me, it boils down to this: does the genocide of the Amalekites, including the slaughtering of infants, look more like the Ancient Near Eastern cultures surrounding the Israelites, or does it look more like the exact revelation of God's nature in Jesus Christ?

Now, I fully believe the Israelites believed wholeheartedly that they were doing God's will. In the ANE, genocide (or herem) was an act of deity worship. Because of God's desire to remain in covenant with His people, I believe He was willing to accommodate acts like these to be attributed to Him. But, we have more information now. Just as we see throughout the OT, there's a slow but gradual growth in their understanding of God and His nature. They began, over time, to see more and more of the picture of God, but still lacked the full image in Christ. I picture it like shadow animals on a wall. The Israelites saw it, and swore it was the shadow of a dog. But, Christ came and we saw the truth. We saw past the shadow and saw what it really was. It was His nail-pierced hands.

Aggrad08 said:

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7thGenTexan said:

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Ah, the man who doesn't recognize that different situations are different. Did God change or did the circumstances?

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If you want to discuss the particular's of that circumstance by all means. Address the post above. As far as I can tell that excuse fall very flat. Intellectually justify how rape, slavery, and genocide were required in this particular situation.

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Firstly, you need to study the practices of ancient Babylon a bit more. Secondly, I don't consider slaughtering sworn enemies, taking their women, or slavery to be inherently evil in all situations. I'm thankful not to live in societies where these things take place, and believe in living at peace with others with as much as lies within. Had I been an ancient Israelite, my thinking would have been very different largely because the thinking of other peoples around me would have been different. It remains to be seen how, for example, the removal of coverture will eventually affect civilizations. We don't know, though I'm glad not to have it.

7thGenTexan said:

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RetiredAg said:

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7thGenTexan said:

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dermdoc said:

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So your view of God is that He can change character from being loving to killing just because He is God? And fwiw, I agree that God can do whatever He wants. I also believe that since God revealed himself through Christ that I can be confident that is who He really is. And nobody on here is trying to change God or say God can not do whatever He wants.

Peace.

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Are humans capable of loving and killing?

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One is not loving the human they are killing. They may try to rationalize it by saying that they are loving those they are protecting, but they are not loving those that they kill.

I don't see how it's compatible w/ the definition Paul gave us. Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Or the definition Christ gave us. There's no greater love than to lay down one's life for another. That doesn't include killing. It's how we imitate the Good Shepherd, who lays His life down for His sheep. It's how we reflect Christ crucified to the world, that even while we were His enemies, He died for us.

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This is what you want, not what the Bible says. You're going to have to refute the scriptures listed. But I knew from the beginning of this discussion that you would not.

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So do you worship Christ or the Bible?

I also think this subject exposes the danger of a flat reading of Scripture. When the "justifications" to commit acts of genocide are held at the same level as the actual words of Jesus Christ, then you end up with a very inconsistent portrait of God. One who orders the slaughter of infants for sins committed 400 years prior, while then warning that it's better to have a millstone hung around your neck and tossed into the sea if you so much as cause a child to stumble.

That's the intent of the cruciform hermeneutic that Boyd proposes. It doesn't try to hold these incompatible views of God while pretending they are compatible, especially when we know that Christ is the exact revelation of God's nature, but instead attempts to peel away the cultural layers and reinterpret those OT texts in a manner consistent the revelation of Christ.

dermdoc said:

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7thGenTexan said:

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RetiredAg said:

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7thGenTexan said:

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dermdoc said:

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So your view of God is that He can change character from being loving to killing just because He is God? And fwiw, I agree that God can do whatever He wants. I also believe that since God revealed himself through Christ that I can be confident that is who He really is. And nobody on here is trying to change God or say God can not do whatever He wants.

Peace.

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Are humans capable of loving and killing?

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One is not loving the human they are killing. They may try to rationalize it by saying that they are loving those they are protecting, but they are not loving those that they kill.

I don't see how it's compatible w/ the definition Paul gave us. Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Or the definition Christ gave us. There's no greater love than to lay down one's life for another. That doesn't include killing. It's how we imitate the Good Shepherd, who lays His life down for His sheep. It's how we reflect Christ crucified to the world, that even while we were His enemies, He died for us.

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This is what you want, not what the Bible says. You're going to have to refute the scriptures listed. But I knew from the beginning of this discussion that you would not.

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So do you worship Christ or the Bible?

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Did Christ come down and tell you all about himself or did you learn about him from the Bible.

This has turned into vain babbling and disputing.

7thGenTexan said:

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dermdoc said:

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7thGenTexan said:

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RetiredAg said:

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7thGenTexan said:

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dermdoc said:

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So your view of God is that He can change character from being loving to killing just because He is God? And fwiw, I agree that God can do whatever He wants. I also believe that since God revealed himself through Christ that I can be confident that is who He really is. And nobody on here is trying to change God or say God can not do whatever He wants.

Peace.

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Are humans capable of loving and killing?

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One is not loving the human they are killing. They may try to rationalize it by saying that they are loving those they are protecting, but they are not loving those that they kill.

I don't see how it's compatible w/ the definition Paul gave us. Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Or the definition Christ gave us. There's no greater love than to lay down one's life for another. That doesn't include killing. It's how we imitate the Good Shepherd, who lays His life down for His sheep. It's how we reflect Christ crucified to the world, that even while we were His enemies, He died for us.

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This is what you want, not what the Bible says. You're going to have to refute the scriptures listed. But I knew from the beginning of this discussion that you would not.

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So do you worship Christ or the Bible?

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Did Christ come down and tell you all about himself or did you learn about him from the Bible.

This has turned into vain babbling and disputing.

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Christ did come down and show us who God truly is, and because we know Christ, we also know that God is not one who will slaughter infants.

God.

Acts 5 is linked to Nadab and Abihu, and God's authority to purify his church. God did it - at least partially - so the priests would recognize his authority. If you will read Acts 5 and 6 as one story, you will see that Acts 6:7 is connected to Ananias and Sapphira.

RetiredAg said:

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7thGenTexan said:

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dermdoc said:

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7thGenTexan said:

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RetiredAg said:

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7thGenTexan said:

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dermdoc said:

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So your view of God is that He can change character from being loving to killing just because He is God? And fwiw, I agree that God can do whatever He wants. I also believe that since God revealed himself through Christ that I can be confident that is who He really is. And nobody on here is trying to change God or say God can not do whatever He wants.

Peace.

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Are humans capable of loving and killing?

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One is not loving the human they are killing. They may try to rationalize it by saying that they are loving those they are protecting, but they are not loving those that they kill.

I don't see how it's compatible w/ the definition Paul gave us. Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Or the definition Christ gave us. There's no greater love than to lay down one's life for another. That doesn't include killing. It's how we imitate the Good Shepherd, who lays His life down for His sheep. It's how we reflect Christ crucified to the world, that even while we were His enemies, He died for us.

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This is what you want, not what the Bible says. You're going to have to refute the scriptures listed. But I knew from the beginning of this discussion that you would not.

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So do you worship Christ or the Bible?

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Did Christ come down and tell you all about himself or did you learn about him from the Bible.

This has turned into vain babbling and disputing.

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Christ did come down and show us who God truly is, and because we know Christ, we also know that God is not one who will slaughter infants.

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And you know about Christ from the Bible, which you largely still won't address apart from suggesting that much of it isn't true.

who said much of the Bible wasn't true?

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Firstly, you need to study the practices of ancient Babylon a bit more.

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They were hardly Mr. rogers. But be it them or cyrus thereafter, the genocide and total slavery of conquered people was not at all the normal practice of all the conquering powers at the time, which is quite fortunate for the jews or they would be long gone. It turns out then as now that relatively good treatment of captured foes who had to pay tribute was in fact preferable to brutality.

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Secondly, I don't consider slaughtering sworn enemies, taking their women, or slavery to be inherently evil in all situations.

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Describe to me the situation where it's all good. Not only where it's good, but ideal. I just don't see it.

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I'm thankful not to live in societies where these things take place, and believe in living at peace with others with as much as lies within. Had I been an ancient Israelite, my thinking would have been very different largely because the thinking of other peoples around me would have been different. It remains to be seen how, for example, the removal of coverture will eventually affect civilizations. We don't know, though I'm glad not to have it.

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Oh sure we are the products of our environment. But god is not. I do not truly begrudge ancient jews for their ignorance. I just think it's foolish for modern men not to recognize their ignorance and mistake it for the perfect thought of an all knowing god.

Who created the Amalekites? And do you believe in the Holy Spirit? And how it can help believers interpret Scripture? And reveal the nature of God since Jesus has ascended to Heaven?

Aggrad08 said:

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Firstly, you need to study the practices of ancient Babylon a bit more.

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They were hardly Mr. rogers. But be it them or cyrus thereafter, the genocide and total slavery of conquered people was not at all the normal practice of the conquering powers at the time, which is quite fortunate for the jews or they would be long gone. It turns out then as now that relatively good treatment of captured foes who had to pay tribute was in fact preferable to brutality.

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Secondly, I don't consider slaughtering sworn enemies, taking their women, or slavery to be inherently evil in all situations.

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Describe to me the situation where it's all good. Not only where it's good, but ideal. I just don't see it.

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I'm thankful not to live in societies where these things take place, and believe in living at peace with others with as much as lies within. Had I been an ancient Israelite, my thinking would have been very different largely because the thinking of other peoples around me would have been different. It remains to be seen how, for example, the removal of coverture will eventually affect civilizations. We don't know, though I'm glad not to have it.

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Oh sure we are the products of our environment. But god is not. I do not truly begrudge ancient jews for their ignorance. I just think it's foolish for modern men not to recognize their ignorance and mistake it for the perfect thought of an all knowing god.

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How long do you think you would survive in the ancient Levant with the practices of a modern man? Would you go and reason with the Amalekits? God, I would assume, knows that we are placed in different environments.

I'm not sure about the following answers, and would have to think long and hard about the truth, but just off the top of my head: Where is a situation that I would think it ok to slaughter enemies? If they were trying to slaughter me, or if I thought they would rise up again and try to do so later if I let them live. When would it be ok to take their women? If others would take them and do perhaps far worse, or if they were left to starve if I didn't take them? When would it be ok to take slaves? Probably if I lived in a world with slavery (and no John Deere tractors) all around me. Slavery need not mean cruelty to the slave. Where would the women and children have gone and what would they have done?

And in all cases, if I knew that God had ordered me to, I'd give it at least a long think.

dermdoc said:

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Who created the Amalekites? And do you believe in the Holy Spirit? And how it can help believers interpret Scripture? And reveal the nature of God since Jesus has ascended to Heaven?

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Who created this entire world? Is it all peaches and cream and robots?

7thGenTexan said:

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RetiredAg said:

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7thGenTexan said:

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dermdoc said:

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7thGenTexan said:

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RetiredAg said:

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7thGenTexan said:

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dermdoc said:

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So your view of God is that He can change character from being loving to killing just because He is God? And fwiw, I agree that God can do whatever He wants. I also believe that since God revealed himself through Christ that I can be confident that is who He really is. And nobody on here is trying to change God or say God can not do whatever He wants.

Peace.

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Are humans capable of loving and killing?

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One is not loving the human they are killing. They may try to rationalize it by saying that they are loving those they are protecting, but they are not loving those that they kill.

I don't see how it's compatible w/ the definition Paul gave us. Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Or the definition Christ gave us. There's no greater love than to lay down one's life for another. That doesn't include killing. It's how we imitate the Good Shepherd, who lays His life down for His sheep. It's how we reflect Christ crucified to the world, that even while we were His enemies, He died for us.

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This is what you want, not what the Bible says. You're going to have to refute the scriptures listed. But I knew from the beginning of this discussion that you would not.

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So do you worship Christ or the Bible?

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Did Christ come down and tell you all about himself or did you learn about him from the Bible.

This has turned into vain babbling and disputing.

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Christ did come down and show us who God truly is, and because we know Christ, we also know that God is not one who will slaughter infants.

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And you know about Christ from the Bible, which you largely still won't address apart from suggesting that much of it isn't true.

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Yes, we know what we do about Christ from the Bible. Nobody is saying the Bible is unimportant. What I'm saying is that all text isn't created equal. I don't subscribe to a flat reading of Scripture, that gives a command to slaughter infants to be held on the same level as the red letters.

Quote:

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And in all cases, if I knew that God had ordered me to, I'd give it at least a long think.

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That's the thing though. Everyone thinks their violence is divinely sanctioned. In that regard, the Ancient Israelites are not that dissimilar to modern humans.

The standard, however, is Christ. Is something compatible w/ the exact (not partial) revelation of God through Christ crucified? Genocide is not. When it's not, then we must peel away the layers of cultural conditioning and see how it does testify to Christ. All scripture does point to Christ, but until we use Christ crucified as the key while guided by the Holy Spirit, we'll never "unlock" how it does.

7thGenTexan said:

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dermdoc said:

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Who created the Amalekites? And do you believe in the Holy Spirit? And how it can help believers interpret Scripture? And reveal the nature of God since Jesus has ascended to Heaven?

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Who created this entire world? Is it all peaches and cream and robots?

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It was perfect. And peaches and cream. Until Man sinned. Or at least that is my interpretation of Genesis,