And it wasn't the gays, the rich, the adulterers, etc. Your judgement is not God's judgement. And thank goodness for that.

Quote:

---

And God is Love.

---

Yes, and we know exactly what His nature looks like because we saw it fully revealed through Christ crucified. Thankfully, it wasn't just a partial revelation, but the whole thing. God is so good. God is love.

And in your way of thinking, if Jesus is the personification of God, and God is as you say, why didn't he kill Matthew who was a cheat? Or damn the thief on the cross next to him to Hell? Or kill all the Romans and their families who were killing innocent Jews? Were the Roman different than the Canaanites?

And edited it to add that all the thief asked was for Jesus to remember him in Paradise, correct? Did Jesus say repent and say the sinner's prayer?

dermdoc said:

---

And in your way of thinking, if Jesus is the personification of God, and God is as you say, why didn't he kill Matthew who was a cheat? Or damn the thief on the cross next to him to Hell? Or kill all the Romans and their families who were killing innocent Jews? Were the Roman different than the Canaanites?

---

Because God acts according to his will, not nature. Otherwise, peons like us could tell God what he must do.

Rev1: 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Matthew 10
11 "Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. 12 And when you go into a household, greet it. 13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

27 "Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops. 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

And in your way of thinking, if Jesus is the personification of God, and God is as you say, why didn't he kill Matthew who was a cheat? Or damn the thief on the cross next to him to Hell? Or kill all the Romans and their families who were killing innocent Jews? Were the Roman different than the Canaanites?

---

Because God acts according to his will, not nature. Otherwise, peons like us could tell God what he must do.

---

Of course, none of us can tell God what to do. But we can read the Scripture, pray, and form a relationship that shows us through the Holy Spirit the character of God.

Or are you saying that Christ and God have different characters?

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

And in your way of thinking, if Jesus is the personification of God, and God is as you say, why didn't he kill Matthew who was a cheat? Or damn the thief on the cross next to him to Hell? Or kill all the Romans and their families who were killing innocent Jews? Were the Roman different than the Canaanites?

---

Because God acts according to his will, not nature. Otherwise, peons like us could tell God what he must do.

---

Of course, none of us can tell God what to do. But we can read the Scripture, pray, and form a relationship that shows us through the Holy Spirit the character of God.

Or are you saying that Christ and God have different characters?

---

"God is love so he must do this and must not do that" sounds like telling God what to do.

dermdoc said:

---

And in your way of thinking, if Jesus is the personification of God, and God is as you say, why didn't he kill Matthew who was a cheat? Or damn the thief on the cross next to him to Hell? Or kill all the Romans and their families who were killing innocent Jews? Were the Roman different than the Canaanites?

And edited it to add that all the thief asked was for Jesus to remember him in Paradise, correct? Did Jesus say repent and say the sinner's prayer?

---

I think part of the issue is that the OT depictions of God as ordering genocide, ripping babies from the womb and dashing them onto the rocks, and other similar acts are more comfortable to people because it is the depiction of the kind of god people want. One who slays their enemies and crushes them under their feet. The image of God as one who would rather be killed by His enemies while praying for their forgiveness is harder to accept. It is human nature to seek revenge, to seek victory through force, etc. But Christ showed us just how different human nature is from God's. Instead of a king slaying his enemies until his clothes are covered in their blood, Revelation shows us a God who is already covered in blood as He enters the battle, but it's the blood of His own followers. We want a god that reinforces our desire to defeat our enemy with flesh and blood weapons, but we have a God who tells us we defeat evil through the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony.

Christ is so unbelievably beautiful to behold, in part, because He is the direct opposite of what we want or envision. And still, we have a hard time accepting this, as even His own disciples didn't quite "get it" and still sought to call down fire from heaven, or to draw the sword and kill.

About a dozen times the Bible declares God is slow to anger (not absent of anger) and abundant of lovingkindness (not wholey, entirely defined as lovingkindness.)

A God without Wrath is in indifferent toward sin, a God who is indifferent is not Loving.

When you recognize God's love isn't "fuzzy warmth" but self-sacrifice, you start your path to understanding Christology.

RetiredAg said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

And in your way of thinking, if Jesus is the personification of God, and God is as you say, why didn't he kill Matthew who was a cheat? Or damn the thief on the cross next to him to Hell? Or kill all the Romans and their families who were killing innocent Jews? Were the Roman different than the Canaanites?

And edited it to add that all the thief asked was for Jesus to remember him in Paradise, correct? Did Jesus say repent and say the sinner's prayer?

---

I think part of the issue is that the OT depictions of God as ordering genocide, ripping babies from the womb and dashing them onto the rocks, and other similar acts are more comfortable to people because it is the depiction of the kind of god people want. One who slays their enemies and crushes them under their feet. The image of God as one who would rather be killed by His enemies while praying for their forgiveness is harder to accept. It is human nature to seek revenge, to seek victory through force, etc. But Christ showed us just how different human nature is from God's. Instead of a king slaying his enemies until his clothes are covered in their blood, Revelation shows us a God who is already covered in blood as He enters the battle, but it's the blood of His own followers. We want a god that reinforces our desire to defeat our enemy with flesh and blood weapons, but we have a God who tells us we defeat evil through the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony.

Christ is so unbelievably beautiful to behold, in part, because He is the direct opposite of what we want or envision. And still, we have a hard time accepting this, as even His own disciples didn't quite "get it" and still sought to call down fire from heaven, or to draw the sword and kill.

---

See verses I posted above. Jesus speaking.

IMHO, you have to look at the context historically and who Matthew was writing to as other accounts of this do not include the last verse. Matthew was writing to Jewish Christians who had undergone a lot of persecution from Jews and probably needed encouragement in very Jewish terms they could understand. I know of no theologians who say that if you reject the Gospel once than that's it, no second chance, you are going to burn. Do you?

And sure God has the keys to everything and can kill us all, throw us into Hell(whatever that is), destroy us, etc. but the key is He does not. And obviously does not want to because, imho, He loves us unconditionally. Again it sounds like a pep talk using hyperbole so that the folks going out will not be fearful

It always amazes me that the folks who seem so eager for "sinners" to get "thrown into Hell" proclaim to be loving Christians.

Quote:

---

And obviously does not want to because, imho, He loves us unconditionally.

---

And we know it because He went so far as to become sin for us and allowing His enemies to nail Him to a cross.

And one last thing. This is all meant to be respectful and loving which as Christians we should strive for. We are all going to read the Scripture and interpret it somewhat differently except for the basic belief of Jesus being the Son of God who died for our sins and belief in Him gives us eternal life.

Works vs grace, concepts of Heaven and Hell, purgatory, whatever are all topics for discussion and will be seen differently by all. I try to concentrate on the resurrected Christ and the victory I have through Him.

Peace.

Quote:

---

And sure God has the keys to everything and can kill us all, throw us into Hell(whatever that is), destroy us, etc. but the key is He does not

---

Chapter and verse? Perhaps one you don't think better to remove from the Bible.

See this from 1 Thessalonians:

13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe. 14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

And wrath did come upon the Jews numerous times. By other men like Hitler. But I personally think God cried when the Jews were murdered. Because He is Love.

dermdoc said:

---

And one last thing. This is all meant to be respectful and loving which as Christians we should strive for. We are all going to read the Scripture and interpret it somewhat differently except for the basic belief of Jesus being the Son of God who died for our sins and belief in Him gives us eternal life.

Works vs grace, concepts of Heaven and Hell, purgatory, whatever are all topics for discussion and will be seen differently by all. I try to concentrate on the resurrected Christ and the victory I have through Him.

Peace.

---

True. Far too often it seems that people like to condemn others to hell-fire and brimstone because of theological disagreements. Even worse is when they seem to find enjoyment in that thought. Can't go wrong, though, with focusing on the full radiance of God's glory in Christ Jesus though.

And so Saul(Paul) should have been killed by God for killing Christians like Stephen? Thank God he got a second chance.

RetiredAg said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

And one last thing. This is all meant to be respectful and loving which as Christians we should strive for. We are all going to read the Scripture and interpret it somewhat differently except for the basic belief of Jesus being the Son of God who died for our sins and belief in Him gives us eternal life.

Works vs grace, concepts of Heaven and Hell, purgatory, whatever are all topics for discussion and will be seen differently by all. I try to concentrate on the resurrected Christ and the victory I have through Him.

Peace.

---

True. Far too often it seems that people like to condemn others to hell-fire and brimstone because of theological disagreements. Even worse is when they seem to find enjoyment in that thought. Can't go wrong, though, with focusing on the full radiance of God's glory in Christ Jesus though.

---

You should not listen to me as I becoming a quasi Universalist. I personally believe that God is so loving and Christ's sacrifice was so complete that all or almost all will be reconciled to God. And I am not a pastor, theologian, etc. so I promise I will keep my beliefs mostly to myself and offer them as suggestions rather than truth. And I have publically professed my faith and baptized so do not worry about my salvation please.

Peace

dermdoc said:

---

And wrath did come upon the Jews numerous times. By other men like Hitler. But I personally think God cried when the Jews were murdered. Because He is Love.

---

Revelation 3:9
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars--I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you


From John 8:
37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with[l] your father."
39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father."
Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father."
Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one FatherGod."
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."

Blessings and curses promised to the Jews in Deuteronomy 28 (12 verses of blessings, the rest curses):
1"Now it shall come to pass, if you diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments which I command you today, that the Lord your God will set you high above all nations of the earth. 2 And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, because you obey the voice of the Lord your God:
3 "Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country.
4 "Blessed shall be the fruit of your body, the produce of your ground and the increase of your herds, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks.
5 "Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.
6 "Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out.
7 "The Lord will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before your face; they shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways.
8 "The Lord will command the blessing on you in your storehouses and in all to which you set your hand, and He will bless you in the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
9 "The Lord will establish you as a holy people to Himself, just as He has sworn to you, if you keep the commandments of the Lord your God and walk in His ways. 10 Then all peoples of the earth shall see that you are called by the name of the Lord, and they shall be afraid of you. 11 And the Lord will grant you plenty of goods, in the fruit of your body, in the increase of your livestock, and in the produce of your ground, in the land of which the Lord swore to your fathers to give you. 12 The Lord will open to you His good treasure, the heavens, to give the rain to your land in its season, and to bless all the work of your hand. You shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow. 13 And the Lord will make you the head and not the tail; you shall be above only, and not be beneath, if you heed the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you today, and are careful to observe them. 14 So you shall not turn aside from any of the words which I command you this day, to the right or the left, to go after other gods to serve them.
Curses on Disobedience
15 "But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:
16 "Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country.
17 "Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.
18 "Cursed shall be the fruit of your body and the produce of your land, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks.
19 "Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.
20 "The Lord will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me. 21 The Lord will make the plague cling to you until He has consumed you from the land which you are going to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with severe burning fever, with the sword, with scorching, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish. 23 And your heavens which are over your head shall be bronze, and the earth which is under you shall be iron. 24 The Lord will change the rain of your land to powder and dust; from the heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed.
25 "The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them; and you shall become troublesome to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 Your carcasses shall be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and no one shall frighten them away. 27 The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed. 28 The Lord will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart. 29 And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you.
30 "You shall betroth a wife, but another man shall lie with her; you shall build a house, but you shall not dwell in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but shall not gather its grapes. 31 Your ox shall be slaughtered before your eyes, but you shall not eat of it; your donkey shall be violently taken away from before you, and shall not be restored to you; your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and you shall have no one to rescue them. 32 Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, and your eyes shall look and fail with longing for them all day long; and there shall be no strength in your hand. 33 A nation whom you have not known shall eat the fruit of your land and the produce of your labor, and you shall be only oppressed and crushed continually. 34 So you shall be driven mad because of the sight which your eyes see. 35 The Lord will strike you in the knees and on the legs with severe boils which cannot be healed, and from the sole of your foot to the top of your head.
36 "The Lord will bring you and the king whom you set over you to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other godswood and stone. 37 And you shall become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all nations where the Lord will drive you.
38 "You shall carry much seed out to the field but gather little in, for the locust shall consume it. 39 You shall plant vineyards and tend them, but you shall neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. 40 You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil; for your olives shall drop off. 41 You shall beget sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours; for they shall go into captivity. 42 Locusts shall consume all your trees and the produce of your land.
43 "The alien who is among you shall rise higher and higher above you, and you shall come down lower and lower. 44 He shall lend to you, but you shall not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you shall be the tail.
45 "Moreover all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. 46 And they shall be upon you for a sign and a wonder, and on your descendants forever.
47 "Because you did not serve the Lord your God with joy and gladness of heart, for the abundance of everything, 48 therefore you shall serve your enemies, whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in need of everything; and He will put a yoke of iron on your neck until He has destroyed you. 49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a nation of fierce countenance, which does not respect the elderly nor show favor to the young. 51 And they shall eat the increase of your livestock and the produce of your land, until you are destroyed; they shall not leave you grain or new wine or oil, or the increase of your cattle or the offspring of your flocks, until they have destroyed you.
52 "They shall besiege you at all your gates until your high and fortified walls, in which you trust, come down throughout all your land; and they shall besiege you at all your gates throughout all your land which the Lord your God has given you. 53 You shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom the Lord your God has given you, in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you. 54 The sensitive and very refined man among you will be hostile toward his brother, toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the rest of his children whom he leaves behind, 55 so that he will not give any of them the flesh of his children whom he will eat, because he has nothing left in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates. 56 The tender and delicate woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground because of her delicateness and sensitivity, will refuse[a] to the husband of her bosom, and to her son and her daughter, 57 her placenta which comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears; for she will eat them secretly for lack of everything in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates.
58 "If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59 then the Lord will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plaguesgreat and prolonged plaguesand serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60 Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the Lord bring upon you until you are destroyed. 62 You shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of heaven in multitude, because you would not obey the voice of the Lord your God. 63 And it shall be, that just as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess.
64 "Then the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have knownwood and stone. 65 And among those nations you shall find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there the Lord will give you a trembling heart, failing eyes, and anguish of soul. 66 Your life shall hang in doubt before you; you shall fear day and night, and have no assurance of life. 67 In the morning you shall say, 'Oh, that it were evening!' And at evening you shall say, 'Oh, that it were morning!' because of the fear which terrifies your heart, and because of the sight which your eyes see.
68 "And the Lord will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, 'You shall never see it again.' And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you."

dermdoc said:

---

RetiredAg said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

And one last thing. This is all meant to be respectful and loving which as Christians we should strive for. We are all going to read the Scripture and interpret it somewhat differently except for the basic belief of Jesus being the Son of God who died for our sins and belief in Him gives us eternal life.

Works vs grace, concepts of Heaven and Hell, purgatory, whatever are all topics for discussion and will be seen differently by all. I try to concentrate on the resurrected Christ and the victory I have through Him.

Peace.

---

True. Far too often it seems that people like to condemn others to hell-fire and brimstone because of theological disagreements. Even worse is when they seem to find enjoyment in that thought. Can't go wrong, though, with focusing on the full radiance of God's glory in Christ Jesus though.

---

You should not listen to me as I becoming a quasi Universalist. I personally believe that God is so loving and Christ's sacrifice was so complete that all or almost all will be reconciled to God. And I am not a pastor, theologian, etc. so I promise I will keep my beliefs mostly to myself and offer them as suggestions rather than truth. That way I will not lead others astray with any false theology.

Peace

---

Oh, I don't subscribe to universalism, but also find it far more consistent w/ God's nature revealed fully through Christ than eternal conscious torment. I do enjoy your posts around here though and hope to see you post more often.

RetiredAg said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

RetiredAg said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

And one last thing. This is all meant to be respectful and loving which as Christians we should strive for. We are all going to read the Scripture and interpret it somewhat differently except for the basic belief of Jesus being the Son of God who died for our sins and belief in Him gives us eternal life.

Works vs grace, concepts of Heaven and Hell, purgatory, whatever are all topics for discussion and will be seen differently by all. I try to concentrate on the resurrected Christ and the victory I have through Him.

Peace.

---

True. Far too often it seems that people like to condemn others to hell-fire and brimstone because of theological disagreements. Even worse is when they seem to find enjoyment in that thought. Can't go wrong, though, with focusing on the full radiance of God's glory in Christ Jesus though.

---

You should not listen to me as I becoming a quasi Universalist. I personally believe that God is so loving and Christ's sacrifice was so complete that all or almost all will be reconciled to God. And I am not a pastor, theologian, etc. so I promise I will keep my beliefs mostly to myself and offer them as suggestions rather than truth. That way I will not lead others astray with any false theology.

Peace

---

Oh, I don't subscribe to universalism, but also find it far more consistent w/ God's nature revealed fully through Christ than eternal conscious torment. I do enjoy your posts around here though and hope to see you post more often.

---

Chapter and verse?

7thGenTexan said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

And wrath did come upon the Jews numerous times. By other men like Hitler. But I personally think God cried when the Jews were murdered. Because He is Love.

---

Revelation 3:9
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars--I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you


From John 8:
37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with[l] your father."
39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father."
Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father."
Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one FatherGod."
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."

Blessings and curses promised to the Jews in Deuteronomy 28 (12 verses of blessings, the rest curses):
1"Now it shall come to pass, if you diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments which I command you today, that the Lord your God will set you high above all nations of the earth. 2 And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, because you obey the voice of the Lord your God:
3 "Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country.
4 "Blessed shall be the fruit of your body, the produce of your ground and the increase of your herds, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks.
5 "Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.
6 "Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out.
7 "The Lord will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before your face; they shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways.
8 "The Lord will command the blessing on you in your storehouses and in all to which you set your hand, and He will bless you in the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
9 "The Lord will establish you as a holy people to Himself, just as He has sworn to you, if you keep the commandments of the Lord your God and walk in His ways. 10 Then all peoples of the earth shall see that you are called by the name of the Lord, and they shall be afraid of you. 11 And the Lord will grant you plenty of goods, in the fruit of your body, in the increase of your livestock, and in the produce of your ground, in the land of which the Lord swore to your fathers to give you. 12 The Lord will open to you His good treasure, the heavens, to give the rain to your land in its season, and to bless all the work of your hand. You shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow. 13 And the Lord will make you the head and not the tail; you shall be above only, and not be beneath, if you heed the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you today, and are careful to observe them. 14 So you shall not turn aside from any of the words which I command you this day, to the right or the left, to go after other gods to serve them.
Curses on Disobedience
15 "But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:
16 "Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country.
17 "Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.
18 "Cursed shall be the fruit of your body and the produce of your land, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks.
19 "Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.
20 "The Lord will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me. 21 The Lord will make the plague cling to you until He has consumed you from the land which you are going to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with severe burning fever, with the sword, with scorching, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish. 23 And your heavens which are over your head shall be bronze, and the earth which is under you shall be iron. 24 The Lord will change the rain of your land to powder and dust; from the heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed.
25 "The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them; and you shall become troublesome to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 Your carcasses shall be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and no one shall frighten them away. 27 The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed. 28 The Lord will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart. 29 And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you.
30 "You shall betroth a wife, but another man shall lie with her; you shall build a house, but you shall not dwell in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but shall not gather its grapes. 31 Your ox shall be slaughtered before your eyes, but you shall not eat of it; your donkey shall be violently taken away from before you, and shall not be restored to you; your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and you shall have no one to rescue them. 32 Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, and your eyes shall look and fail with longing for them all day long; and there shall be no strength in your hand. 33 A nation whom you have not known shall eat the fruit of your land and the produce of your labor, and you shall be only oppressed and crushed continually. 34 So you shall be driven mad because of the sight which your eyes see. 35 The Lord will strike you in the knees and on the legs with severe boils which cannot be healed, and from the sole of your foot to the top of your head.
36 "The Lord will bring you and the king whom you set over you to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other godswood and stone. 37 And you shall become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all nations where the Lord will drive you.
38 "You shall carry much seed out to the field but gather little in, for the locust shall consume it. 39 You shall plant vineyards and tend them, but you shall neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. 40 You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil; for your olives shall drop off. 41 You shall beget sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours; for they shall go into captivity. 42 Locusts shall consume all your trees and the produce of your land.
43 "The alien who is among you shall rise higher and higher above you, and you shall come down lower and lower. 44 He shall lend to you, but you shall not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you shall be the tail.
45 "Moreover all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. 46 And they shall be upon you for a sign and a wonder, and on your descendants forever.
47 "Because you did not serve the Lord your God with joy and gladness of heart, for the abundance of everything, 48 therefore you shall serve your enemies, whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in need of everything; and He will put a yoke of iron on your neck until He has destroyed you. 49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a nation of fierce countenance, which does not respect the elderly nor show favor to the young. 51 And they shall eat the increase of your livestock and the produce of your land, until you are destroyed; they shall not leave you grain or new wine or oil, or the increase of your cattle or the offspring of your flocks, until they have destroyed you.
52 "They shall besiege you at all your gates until your high and fortified walls, in which you trust, come down throughout all your land; and they shall besiege you at all your gates throughout all your land which the Lord your God has given you. 53 You shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom the Lord your God has given you, in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you. 54 The sensitive and very refined man among you will be hostile toward his brother, toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the rest of his children whom he leaves behind, 55 so that he will not give any of them the flesh of his children whom he will eat, because he has nothing left in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates. 56 The tender and delicate woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground because of her delicateness and sensitivity, will refuse[a] to the husband of her bosom, and to her son and her daughter, 57 her placenta which comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears; for she will eat them secretly for lack of everything in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates.
58 "If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59 then the Lord will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plaguesgreat and prolonged plaguesand serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60 Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the Lord bring upon you until you are destroyed. 62 You shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of heaven in multitude, because you would not obey the voice of the Lord your God. 63 And it shall be, that just as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess.
64 "Then the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have knownwood and stone. 65 And among those nations you shall find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there the Lord will give you a trembling heart, failing eyes, and anguish of soul. 66 Your life shall hang in doubt before you; you shall fear day and night, and have no assurance of life. 67 In the morning you shall say, 'Oh, that it were evening!' And at evening you shall say, 'Oh, that it were morning!' because of the fear which terrifies your heart, and because of the sight which your eyes see.
68 "And the Lord will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, 'You shall never see it again.' And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you."

---

You might want to re read Revelations 3:9 again. Especially the last part. God's "punishment" is to acknowledge that He loves them.

Hallelujah

dermdoc said:

---

7thGenTexan said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

And wrath did come upon the Jews numerous times. By other men like Hitler. But I personally think God cried when the Jews were murdered. Because He is Love.

---

Revelation 3:9
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars--I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you


From John 8:
37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with[l] your father."
39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father."
Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father."
Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one FatherGod."
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."

Blessings and curses promised to the Jews in Deuteronomy 28 (12 verses of blessings, the rest curses):
1"Now it shall come to pass, if you diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments which I command you today, that the Lord your God will set you high above all nations of the earth. 2 And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, because you obey the voice of the Lord your God:
3 "Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country.
4 "Blessed shall be the fruit of your body, the produce of your ground and the increase of your herds, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks.
5 "Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.
6 "Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out.
7 "The Lord will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before your face; they shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways.
8 "The Lord will command the blessing on you in your storehouses and in all to which you set your hand, and He will bless you in the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
9 "The Lord will establish you as a holy people to Himself, just as He has sworn to you, if you keep the commandments of the Lord your God and walk in His ways. 10 Then all peoples of the earth shall see that you are called by the name of the Lord, and they shall be afraid of you. 11 And the Lord will grant you plenty of goods, in the fruit of your body, in the increase of your livestock, and in the produce of your ground, in the land of which the Lord swore to your fathers to give you. 12 The Lord will open to you His good treasure, the heavens, to give the rain to your land in its season, and to bless all the work of your hand. You shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow. 13 And the Lord will make you the head and not the tail; you shall be above only, and not be beneath, if you heed the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you today, and are careful to observe them. 14 So you shall not turn aside from any of the words which I command you this day, to the right or the left, to go after other gods to serve them.
Curses on Disobedience
15 "But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:
16 "Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country.
17 "Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.
18 "Cursed shall be the fruit of your body and the produce of your land, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks.
19 "Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.
20 "The Lord will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me. 21 The Lord will make the plague cling to you until He has consumed you from the land which you are going to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with severe burning fever, with the sword, with scorching, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish. 23 And your heavens which are over your head shall be bronze, and the earth which is under you shall be iron. 24 The Lord will change the rain of your land to powder and dust; from the heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed.
25 "The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them; and you shall become troublesome to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 Your carcasses shall be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and no one shall frighten them away. 27 The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed. 28 The Lord will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart. 29 And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you.
30 "You shall betroth a wife, but another man shall lie with her; you shall build a house, but you shall not dwell in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but shall not gather its grapes. 31 Your ox shall be slaughtered before your eyes, but you shall not eat of it; your donkey shall be violently taken away from before you, and shall not be restored to you; your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and you shall have no one to rescue them. 32 Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, and your eyes shall look and fail with longing for them all day long; and there shall be no strength in your hand. 33 A nation whom you have not known shall eat the fruit of your land and the produce of your labor, and you shall be only oppressed and crushed continually. 34 So you shall be driven mad because of the sight which your eyes see. 35 The Lord will strike you in the knees and on the legs with severe boils which cannot be healed, and from the sole of your foot to the top of your head.
36 "The Lord will bring you and the king whom you set over you to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other godswood and stone. 37 And you shall become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all nations where the Lord will drive you.
38 "You shall carry much seed out to the field but gather little in, for the locust shall consume it. 39 You shall plant vineyards and tend them, but you shall neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. 40 You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil; for your olives shall drop off. 41 You shall beget sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours; for they shall go into captivity. 42 Locusts shall consume all your trees and the produce of your land.
43 "The alien who is among you shall rise higher and higher above you, and you shall come down lower and lower. 44 He shall lend to you, but you shall not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you shall be the tail.
45 "Moreover all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. 46 And they shall be upon you for a sign and a wonder, and on your descendants forever.
47 "Because you did not serve the Lord your God with joy and gladness of heart, for the abundance of everything, 48 therefore you shall serve your enemies, whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in need of everything; and He will put a yoke of iron on your neck until He has destroyed you. 49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a nation of fierce countenance, which does not respect the elderly nor show favor to the young. 51 And they shall eat the increase of your livestock and the produce of your land, until you are destroyed; they shall not leave you grain or new wine or oil, or the increase of your cattle or the offspring of your flocks, until they have destroyed you.
52 "They shall besiege you at all your gates until your high and fortified walls, in which you trust, come down throughout all your land; and they shall besiege you at all your gates throughout all your land which the Lord your God has given you. 53 You shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom the Lord your God has given you, in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you. 54 The sensitive and very refined man among you will be hostile toward his brother, toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the rest of his children whom he leaves behind, 55 so that he will not give any of them the flesh of his children whom he will eat, because he has nothing left in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates. 56 The tender and delicate woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground because of her delicateness and sensitivity, will refuse[a] to the husband of her bosom, and to her son and her daughter, 57 her placenta which comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears; for she will eat them secretly for lack of everything in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates.
58 "If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59 then the Lord will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plaguesgreat and prolonged plaguesand serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60 Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the Lord bring upon you until you are destroyed. 62 You shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of heaven in multitude, because you would not obey the voice of the Lord your God. 63 And it shall be, that just as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess.
64 "Then the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have knownwood and stone. 65 And among those nations you shall find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there the Lord will give you a trembling heart, failing eyes, and anguish of soul. 66 Your life shall hang in doubt before you; you shall fear day and night, and have no assurance of life. 67 In the morning you shall say, 'Oh, that it were evening!' And at evening you shall say, 'Oh, that it were morning!' because of the fear which terrifies your heart, and because of the sight which your eyes see.
68 "And the Lord will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, 'You shall never see it again.' And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you."

---

You might want to re read Revelations 3:9 again. Especially the last part. God's "punishment" is to acknowledge that He loves them.

Hallelujah

---

You might want to read it a bit more carefully yourself.

Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.

If Jesus is God revealed to us, what does that say about God's character?

Revelation 11 might help describe the difference between the two different groups of people:
"We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

So what was the terrible punishment? Even if they were of the synagogue of Satan? Falling down at God's feet? Acknowledging His love for them? Sounds cool to me.

dermdoc said:

---

Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.

If Jesus is God revealed to us, what does that say about God's character?

---

Quote:

---

So what was the terrible punishment? Even if they were of the synagogue of Satan? Falling down at God's feet? Acknowledging His love for them? Sounds cool to me.

---

This is what Jesus said:
The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations
31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

First of all, I am not a "nation". Secondly, I am no Mother Teresa but have done all of the things you have mentioned in the first part as far as charity work. And I would bet most of the folks on here have also.

So do I pass your muster?

dermdoc said:

---

First of all, I am not a "nation". Secondly, I am no Mother Teresa but have done all of the things you have mentioned in the first part as far as charity work. And I would bet most of the folks on here have also.

So do I pass your muster?

---

What I have posted is not my muster. My evil has and does far outweigh my charity. Even this admission is vanity.

I'm not sure these are laughing matters to be made fun of and tossed aside lightly. But about those hundreds of verses we could post....

7thGenTexan said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

First of all, I am not a "nation". Secondly, I am no Mother Teresa but have done all of the things you have mentioned in the first part as far as charity work. And I would bet most of the folks on here have also.

So do I pass your muster?

---

What I have posted is not my muster. My evil has and does far outweigh my charity. Even this admission is vanity.

I'm not sure these are laughing matters to be made fun of and tossed aside lightly. But about those hundreds of verses we could post....

---

No this is not a laughing matter. But this is not about verses IMHO. Because I can cite just as many verses about God's Love as you can his wrath.

And you never answered the question I posed about which one group Jesus talked about negatively the most. The answer of course was the Pharisees, the religious establishment who wanted to judge everybody.

Remember, I am just stating my opinions and this is not in anger as I love you. And so does God.

RetiredAg said:

---

Quote:

---

And obviously does not want to because, imho, He loves us unconditionally.

---

---

Agape is a poor understanding of love. Jesus didn't speak Greek. Paul uses that word in his epistles because there is no word that translates from God's self-sacrificing love into "the 4 Greek loves".

Start here

dermdoc said:

---

7thGenTexan said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

First of all, I am not a "nation". Secondly, I am no Mother Teresa but have done all of the things you have mentioned in the first part as far as charity work. And I would bet most of the folks on here have also.

So do I pass your muster?

---

What I have posted is not my muster. My evil has and does far outweigh my charity. Even this admission is vanity.

I'm not sure these are laughing matters to be made fun of and tossed aside lightly. But about those hundreds of verses we could post....

---

No this is not a laughing matter. But this is not about verses IMHO. Because I can cite just as many verses about God's Love as you can his wrath.

And you never answered the question I posed about which one group Jesus talked about negatively the most. The answer of course was the Pharisees, the religious establishment who wanted to judge everybody.

Remember, I am just stating my opinions and this is not in anger as I love you. And so does God.

---

It is about verses as some have said that God does not take body or soul. You can post every verse about God's love and forgiveness and I'll agree with every verse, though with guilty trembling (another vain admission). Almost everything I've posted in this thread is from the Bible, much of it directly from Jesus. Apparently some think Christ is antichrist when he doesn't agree with them.

You are a better man than me sir.

Peace.