Who Killed Ananias and Sapphira? A Response to Paul Copan (#6)

This is an incident that I regularly here when discussing the issue of nonviolence. I feel that this gives a much clearer understanding of this nonviolent understanding of what happened. Boyd goes into "semi-autonomous conception of divine power" and the withdrawal of divine protection in much greater detail in Crucifixion of the Warrior God. If you enjoy theology, I highly recommend reading this 2-volume work. One may come away still in disagreement, but the depth of his research and scriptural support will be evident.

They were killed by Satan or his fallen angels. The "young men" outside the door were fallen angels who came in and hauled away the bodies of Ananias and Sapphira. It is Satan, not God, who always wields the power of death. Heb 2:14b. It was by dying that Jesus destroyed the one who has the power of death, that is the devil. God does not retaliate against His enemies for wrongdoing as seems superficially at least to have been the case with Ananias and
Sapphira.

God loves His enemies and asks us to do the same. Matt 5:38-48. Death is an enemy of God, not the friend and not an instrument of God. 1 Cor 15:26. Jesus died to deliver us from the law of sin and DEATH. Rom 8:2-3. God would not use as a tool a thing which he died to deliver us from. God conquered death thru the cross. God does allow Satan and His angels to kill and God uses what Satan does for good and redemptive purposes as He did when He allowed Satan to kill Jesus at Calvary.

The "young men" outside the door were the reaper angels. They were the fallen angels under the direction of Satan who came to harvest these two people. God allowed it for a good purpose: to cleanse and sift the newly born church.

The passage in Acts 5 never directly says God killed them because He did not.

Fallen Angels are always the grim reapers of humanity. Matt 13:39. God does not kill people. Satan does. John 10:10. Satan is the thief, the destroyer and the killer and the liar. John 8:44. Jesus came that we might have LIFE. He is resurrection Life. John 11.

Satan kills. God raises the dead and gives life. God is the God of the living not the dead.

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God has made. . . And the serpent said to the woman, Ye shall not surely die . . . Gen 3:1-5. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan. . . Rev 12.

No devil causing death in Genesis?

Bryanisbest said:

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Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God has made. . . And the serpent said to the woman, Ye shall not surely die . . . Gen 3:1. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan. . .

No devil causing death in Genesis?

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You should read the post closer. Also, the serpent in Genesis is never identified as Satan. The best you can do is a verse from Revelation which might link to Genesis and was written about 700-800 years after Genesis.

Exodus 12:23 for the devil linked to death. "The destroyer" is the devil or one of the fallen angels under his direction which killed the first borns of Egypt. The word "destroyer" is connected to the devil too in Rev 7:3; 9:4. See also Ps 78:42-51 especially at v49-50.. The Bible interprets itself and sometimes 700-800 years makes no difference to the validity of that interpretation. Yep, that's the best I can do in a quick response. I don't think I am a gnostic although not completely sure what they believed. Didn't they believe that Jesus's fleshly body was an illusion either before or after resurrection or both? I don't believe that.

You seem to believe physical reality is evil or under the rule of evil. That's a distinctly gnostic belief.

And nothing in Exodus or Psalm 78 labels the destroyer as Satan. In fact, Death is an agent of God under his direct control in that verse.

The human body is fallen and filled with the unholy spirit of Sin. This is why God's plan thru the cross is that we shed these bodies in a death caused by Satan and be given new bodies in resurrection to match our new hearts minds and spirits. If that is a gnostic belief I claim it, not Gnosticism, as mine. We must put off the old man and put on the new. Col 3:9-10; Eph 4:22-24.

Ps 78:49-50 says God "sent evil angels" Old KJV to destroy the first born. This "sent" when taken in context of whole realm of Bible is God withdrawing His protective hand and allowing Satan to do what he is always bent on doing, killing
And destroying. God does that for a good and redemptive purpose, to deliver His children from bondage. God uses but never causes death just like He uses but did not cause the death of His Son Jesus on the cross. God loves His enemies, Satan, ISIS, Hitler and His friends, Billy Graham, Mother Teresa, you and me. God raises the dead. Satan is the murderer. Always every time.

So the plagues of Egypt were the work of Satan?

The angel of death at Passover was an agent of Hell?

And later in Acts when Herod-Agrippa is declared a god and real God turns him into wormfood is really a demonic act?

I wonder what you think of Sodom, or Jericho. Or the numerous -ites God commanded to genocide?

Or the flood? Are you claiming Satan flooded the earth?

Yes sir. You are correct on all counts!

See Ps 79 especially v48 for who caused plagues of Egypt and killed first born children of Egypt. God allowed it. Evil angels did it.
Sodom and Gomorrah was done by angels.
Flood of Noah too long a story for here. Satan did it, too. God takes the blame.

Have you read Greg Boyd's Crucifixion of the Warrior God , or the condensed version Cross Vision . I think, based on what I've seen you post, that you'd really love it. I read the longer version. It was phenomenal. Hey goes into all these violent OT depictions of a genocidal God, but interprets them using what he calls the cruciform hermeneutic. It's so well researched scripturally as he lays out the case for a nonviolent understanding of these culturally conditioned depictions. Highly recommend. If you don't have time for a 1300 page work, try Cross Vision.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1506420753/ref=cm_sw_r_fm_apa_e3wtAbF1H4QYJ

Lol. Well good luck to you sir, you're gonna need it.

Does striking someone blind count as an act of violence?

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4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. 5 And when they arrived in Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. They also had John as their assistant.
6 Now when they had gone through the island to Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew whose name was Bar-Jesus, 7 who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, an intelligent man. This man called for Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. 8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so his name is translated) withstood them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. 9 Then Saul, who also is called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10 and said, "O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord? 11 And now, indeed, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you shall be blind, not seeing the sun for a time."
And immediately a dark mist fell on him, and he went around seeking someone to lead him by the hand. 12 Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had been done, being astonished at the teaching of the Lord.

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I need no luck, Sir, because I believe God is Love. This gives me great hope and faith. I can lean on a God who I know loves me and does not kill people. I recommend Him to you, Sir.

RetiredAg said:

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Have you read Greg Boyd's Crucifixion of the Warrior God , or the condensed version Cross Vision . I think, based on what I've seen you post, that you'd really love it. I read the longer version. It was phenomenal. Hey goes into all these violent OT depictions of a genocidal God, but interprets them using what he calls the cruciform hermeneutic. It's so well researched scripturally as he lays out the case for a nonviolent understanding of these culturally conditioned depictions. Highly recommend. If you don't have time for a 1300 page work, try Cross Vision.

Greg Boyd explains it all. Yes he does !!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1506420753/ref=cm_sw_r_fm_apa_e3wtAbF1H4QYJ

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Bryanisbest said:

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I need no luck, Sir, because I believe God is Love. This gives me great hope and faith. I can lean on a God who I know loves me and does not kill people. I recommend Him to you, Sir.

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I heard a saying recently that if anyone starts with "I believe God is ..." is almost certainly not talking about the God of the Bible.

Unfortunately you prove that statement true.

So Belief in what God does, is and stands for is not important, right? The reason I believe God is Love is because the Bible says God is Love. You must not believe the Bible, Sir.

7thGenTexan said:

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Bryanisbest said:

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So Belief in what God does, is and stands for is not important, right? The reason I believe God is Love is because the Bible says God is Love. You must not believe the Bible, Sir.

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God gives and God takes. We are His to do with what He will.

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It is interesting to me that you point to a verse in Job (1:21) where Job is quoted as saying, ". . the Lord hath given and the Lord hath taken away. . ." In so doing you prove my point for me. Satan,not God, was actually the one who had "taken away" in Job's case but Job was never told this. God took the blame from Job and his three friends for what Satan actually did. God did allow it but only for a good and redemptive purpose. Satan is always the killer. But God takes the blame as His Son did at Calvary.

Exactly. The Scriptures are a testament to how much God is willing to accommodate, such as depictions of a genocidal warlord, in order to remain in covenant with His people.

Have you seen Boyd's Twisted Scripture series of sermons? He has one on Job. It's fantastic.

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WHat we have here are a couple of examples of people whose worship of God depends on Him submitting to their belief. Humans are unworthy of such demands on the God of the universe.

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And this is a great example of the misrepresentations, or flat-out lies, that led me to no longer engage with you here. What we have here are a couple of examples of people that believe Jesus Christ is the exact representation of God's nature. He's not a partial representation. If you wish to know what God looks like, you look to Jesus. He's the exact representation and radiance of His glory. We don't demand that God submit to our belief. We believe that God looks like Jesus, so we interpret the Scriptures accordingly.

If you'd like a more in-depth understanding of this cruciform hermeneutic, then I would highly recommend either Crucifixion of the Warrior God or its condensed version Cross Vision. Boyd certainly doesn't shy away from any of these verses you allude to, and in fact, the book is addressing those very verses.

The Debt said:

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Lol. Well good luck to you sir, you're gonna need it.

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I'd be curious if you could explain exactly what you're saying here. Because it appears you're alluding to judgement. Is that correct?

RetiredAg said:

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The Debt said:

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Lol. Well good luck to you sir, you're gonna need it.

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I'd be curious if you could explain exactly what you're saying here. Because it appears you're alluding to judgement. Is that correct?

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Bryan doesn't think God is wrathful. Nor will He pass judgment, because that would be dark "and my God is a God of Light and Rainbows and Glitter!"

He must ignore Uzzah who touched the Ark of the Covenant and God smote him instantly. Or Aarons sons playing with the Holy Fire and God killed them instantly. These are people mocking God's holiness and they were killed by GOD. Not some demon residing in Holy places working as an agent of God.

Bryan doesn't have theology, he has ideology. And knowing the difference is critical to sanctification.

The Debt said:

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RetiredAg said:

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The Debt said:

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Lol. Well good luck to you sir, you're gonna need it.

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I'd be curious if you could explain exactly what you're saying here. Because it appears you're alluding to judgement. Is that correct?

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Bryan doesn't think God is wrathful. Nor will He pass judgment, because that would be dark "and my God is a God of Light and Rainbows and Glitter!"

He must ignore Uzzah who touched the Ark of the Covenant and God smote him instantly. Or Aarons sons playing with the Holy Fire and God killed them instantly. These are people mocking God's holiness and they were killed by GOD. Not some demon residing in Holy places working as an agent of God.

Bryan doesn't have theology, he has ideology. And knowing the difference is critical to sanctification.

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I don't think he's ignoring anything. His understanding of God's nature is centered on the full representation of God's nature revealed to us through Christ crucified.

But, given you were alluding to judgement, I think you reveal your true colors by starting it off w' "lol" and smiling, as though you are almost eager that someone will suffer God's wrath as you understand it. That's disgusting and patently antichrist. It's something I've seen so often in Americanized Christianity, and it is vile. Even Christ wept at Jerusalem's impending judgment. You laugh and smile about it.

Yes I laugh at people dedicated to self-delusion. Perhaps you would prefer me to be eternally woeful. Paul indicates that man has to ignore everything to miss the obvious truth.

Someone so bent on a monolithic interpretation of God has two avenues: correction or judgment. Both avenues result in God's glory. But only one is set to happen, and that's up to God.

Bryan has cherrypicked his facts to fit a 1000%LoveGod, it's typically in this adulterous generation. The idea that God can HATE the wicked, not the sin, the sinner would shock him. Jesus telling people they would need to hate their father and brother would shock him. God telling His people to genocide canaanites would shock him.

Well, maybe not, if it did shock him it would convict him of his self-deception. But that is not on me, or on you, or even on Bryan. The only being that can convict the soul is God alone.

It's funny, the angels in heaven don't sing "loving, loving, loving" to describe God. Odd, no?

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Yes I laugh at people dedicated to self-delusion.

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Well, at least you're honest about your embrace of antichrist behavior. No need to go into the irony of you accusing people of cherry-picking while you follow it by cherry-picking Scripture.

But, you've repeatedly made it clear that you have no desire to engage respectfully, so I'll move on.

"You're a monster! You're not being respectful of my heresies!"

Pointing out more of God's character isn't cherrypicking. It's expanding.

To say God is only X is cherrypicking. To say God is X, Y, and Z is not cherrypicking. Maybe some day you'll see the difference.

If you wish to pigeonhole God into one characteristic and ignore who He is outside of that one aspect, you do so at your own peril.

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Even Christ wept at Jerusalem's impending judgment.

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uhhh...I thought nobody is judged. Everybody gets a trophy in heaven because God is love.

I just prayed for you. And God is Love.

That ain't all.

Please tell me which one group Christ criticized more than any other group? By far.