*** PRESUMED INNOCENT *** (Jake Gyllenhaal Apple TV+ Series)

24,166 Views | 277 Replies | Last: 28 days ago by 20ag07
Rudyjax
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20ag07 said:

Quote:

I remember rooting for the protagonist is the original book and movie.

Why did they make him so unlikeable?
Also, this is a spoiler, and you do not even bother using spoiler tags, so you should be condemned to hell like I was.


Definitely not a spoiler.
k20dub
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Last episode comes out at 8:00 PM Central tonight right? Might want to avoid this thread starting then if you can't watch it until tomorrow.
20ag07
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None of this show is realistic, but here's what can reasonably be speculated:

-None of the 3 kids did it. It was just too elaborate of a crime for any kid of that age to have been able to do it with that level of detail.
-Tommy Molto didn't do it, or they wouldn't have red herring uw with that in the penultimate episode. That's just not how TV works.
-Rusty didn't do it, or else we've all wasted our time. That's also just not how TV works.

So we are down to:
-The accomplice, whose name I can't even remember, because it's so horribly tied in. And I'm sure they have a twist coming for us there, but there is NO way to explain why he would be anywhere near the courtroom that day.
-The ex-husband, who, we just haven't delved into much.
-Della Guardia, who, has just gotten a weird edit (he was bad, then he turned into the most reasonable character), which would make it easy to make him the bad guy again.
-The wife, who had every reason to, but I just don't think they'd let this be a "the (rightfully) scorned angry black woman did it"
-The always angry medical examiner, who just seems too easy
-Raymond, who has made so many questionable decisions (beginning with assigning Rusty the case in the first place) that you could find a way to bring that home.
-Lorraine, Raymond's wife, who has gotten WAY too much screen time for what that character brings
Mikeyshooter
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Agree with pretty much everything here.

I think it has to be a male character due to the crime scene setup. They will eventually uncover that someone else was either stalking her or had a major crush and finally snapped when she wouldn't return the favor. None of the characters make a whole lot of sense at this point.



mike_ags_fan12
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Last episode dropped!
Aggies76
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Just finished watching. Not what I was expecting but very good. I can't quite buy the last few scenes though.
Marsh
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"let's build a probable case for literally every person in this show to be the murderer except for one and then let's make that person the killer!"

Literally zero evidence through the first 7 episodes (and ~40+ minutes of episode 8) and then all of a sudden she is the killer. Pretty dumb.

Happy to eat my words if someone finds more evidence sprinkled in throughout the episodes but that was just a show trying to subvert expectations for the sole reason of trying to subvert expectations.
chick79
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I thought it was a great series!
suburban cowboy
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Yeah; this was a head scratcher.

A lot of aspects of the show were very well done, but then there were so many things that left me asking, "why would you do that?"

From Tommy Molto's bolo tie, the very strange last scene in the garage with Barbara and Rusty, to the killer having absolutely no chance at getting away with that.
suburban cowboy
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chick79 said:

I thought it was a great series!


good not great. could have been great if they'd done a few things differently, to include making Rusty likeable.
20ag07
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Quote:

"let's build a probably case for literally every person in this show to be the murderer except for one and then let's make that person the killer!"

Literally zero evidence through the first 7 episodes (and ~40+ minutes of episode 8) and then all of a sudden she is the killer. Pretty dumb.
That part, was rather expected.

Hated it, of course.

They fixed the one thing I thought could make no sense, that one of the kids couldn't have done it, by explaining Rusty did the cover up. But like it's utter insanity that he went BACK to her house at midnight that night after he had ALREADY been there earlier.

NONE of the Bunny Davis and accomplice stuff makes sense now that we know that Rusty thought his wife did it the whole time.

Rusty doing his own closing is like the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.

Tommy Milton got waaaay too much attention, which is clear that only happened bc Saarsgaard is JG's bil.

It was a fun show, and well acted. But really, utterly stupid.
20ag07
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Lol, the bolo tie thing was so distracting for me. Throughout the entire episode, they kept showing it. He's wearing it in his house, alone with the cat. I spent way more minutes than I should have while watching the finale thinking about the stupid bolo tie.
suburban cowboy
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20ag07 said:

Lol, the bolo tie thing was so distracting for me. Throughout the entire episode, they kept showing it. He's wearing it in his house, alone with the cat. I spent way more minutes than I should have while watching the finale thinking about the stupid bolo tie.


Same. And there is zero chance a Chicago DA litigator is wearing a bolo tie ever.

Just a clunky, unnecessary thing.
DannyDuberstein
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The dissociative conversation after they pointed suspicion at everyone but her was what made it clear for me. She was going to be the one that the TPIR wheel was going to land on
20ag07
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The other thing I can't get past- there is no way this family survives.

We can talk about the movie now (unless TCTTS screams at me again)- there, he figures out after the fact that the wife did it after he gets off but just goes on with life bc of his 8/9 yo, and he's done so many ****ty things to her anyway.

This dude did so many ****ty things to his wife, not to mention accusing her of the murder, and we are gonna think she's sticking around for him to throw baseballs with the like 15/17yo kids?

The whole "for the family" thing kind of works when you've got a super young kid. It does not work when you've done so many ****ty things to each other and your kids are about to move out anyway.

They had to age the kids up, so that one of them could do it (the daughter doesn't even exist in the book/movie), but "doing it for the family" totally falls apart when the kids are pretty close to leaving the house anyway.

(I mean, I guess it wouldn't be the first time people stayed together bc they somehow managed to luck into a like $2M house on an asst DA/art director salary, and couldn't figure out how to leave that deal.)
DannyDuberstein
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Yeah, this family explodes in 3-4 directions. The daughter becomes a junkie who will never have a healthy relationship with a man. But they had a good Thanksgiving at least
Aggies76
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Totally agree. There is no way this is a happy family as portrayed in the last few scenes.
20ag07
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The cover-up too- just beyond suspension of disbelief. Like, I'm expected to believe Rusty, who was so mentally unwell, that he went back to Carolyn's house for the 2nd time in a night after sending her an obsessive level of messages, found the person he was so obsessed dead, and was able to recover mentally in a matter of minutes to frame someone else AND JUST HAPPENED TO HAVE ROPE IN HIS CAR?

No one in Chicago just carries rope in their car.

If they were going to go this route, then at least make the Bunny crime, and then the attempted cover-up make logistical sense.

So many bad bad writing choices.
Mikeyshooter
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All she needed was a doorbell camera and **** gets solved in about 15 minutes.


TCTTS
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Dumb.
DannyDuberstein
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Maybe I heard wrong, but I could have sworn they played the sound of her dropping the poker after the killing. Clearly she took it with her and maybe I just heard wrong, but it seemed like an editing slip up
C@LAg
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one of these times I want it to be the dog that is guilty.

less convoluted and more plausible than some of the dumb knots they write into these shows.
20ag07
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I think Gylly is coming back for season 2.

He's either going to be a defense attorney for someone (a name actor but a little lower than him) or back in the DA office (after likeable Della Guardia became a judge) prosecuting someone, probably Tommy Molto for killing his wife for revenge.
suburban cowboy
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20ag07 said:

I think Gylly is coming back for season 2.

He's either going to be a defense attorney for someone (a name actor but a little lower than him) or back in the DA office (after likeable Della Guardia became a judge) prosecuting someone, probably Tommy Molto for killing his wife for revenge.


Yes but instead she's murdered by Clifton's (bartender) friendly doorman who they don't show at all in Season 2, and JG will suddenly become infatuated with wearing Abe Lincoln style top-hats.
OldArmy71
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Not a good series.

I enjoyed the judge, the DA, and Raymond.

Ending was bad.
Thisguy1
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The point of the series wasn't to find the murderer. It was to prove Rusty's innocence.
frenchtoast
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I'll miss doing my Nico Della Guardia impression.
rhutton125
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A few thoughts, having finished the show and watched the movie today:

1) Rusty is innocent, but he's clearly a sociopath. The way he cries during his speech and then sits down emotionless 5 seconds later, and doesn't react at all when he's exonerated.

2) Likewise, it kinda explains his reckless behavior in pursuing the guy in prison and his "accomplice." He wasn't just seeking to prove his innocence, he was staging the murder in a specific way and then pursuing that lead to continue the narrative he'd built. Again, not rational. Sociopathic.

3) This show felt like a less-good Mare of Easttown to me. Twists and turns and red herrings all over the place. Unlike Mare (from what I remember) some of the twists felt cheap. The son on the bicycle, for example (never mentioned again after Rusty prevents the bike from getting scrapped). The accomplice guy. The sudden submission of new evidence that the judge allows over protest of the defense. Etc. The underwhelming daughter reveal is kinda in line with this, IMO - novice-level red herrings. Seen better.

4) Lastly, that family ain't happy. The final look from the wife is like a fading smile, like what's left after the performance stops. They're all pretending to be a happy family but she'll probably never be happy again. Movie comment: it's similar to Harrison Ford's voiceover, where he's staying together for the kid but paying the price for what he ultimately caused. She's innocent in this case, staying together for the kids but surrounded by a murderer and a sociopath.
agracer
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OMG...where to begin on the mess of a last episode.

First, how many here would have voted 'not guilty' that quickly for Rusty Sabich? Probably no one. Yeah, lots of circumstantial evidence but his actions after the murder as the lead prosecutor and actions before and after he was accused point to an obsessed, violent man who probably snapped.

They cannot establish his location after the time of death was put after midnight on the night of Carolyn's death? They don't want his wife to testify but HELLO, his cell phone pings and HIS CAR GPS would put him at the house TWICE on the night of the murder. Same as his daughter, who just took the moms van out at 11PM for a little drive around the block. Her cell phone and van GPS would put here there between when Rusty was at the home twice. Police do GPS dumps all the time looking for criminals ( NYT). They absolutely would have gone after Rusty AND his family's phone GPS data, and likely the cars as well establishing who was where and when. That and his daughter leaves ZERO DNA/blood/fingerprint evidence at the murder scene.

Then we have the daughter driving to a park out in a rural area (that's a 90-min drive from just about anywhere in Chicago), burying the fire poker, THEN GOES TO GET IT BACK to plant it in Malto's house (how'd she know she'd be able to get in and AGAIN, leave no trace she was there). And Mom and Dad never ask her where she went for 4-hours when she was supposed to be home sick?

GPS Data again - Oh, you're van went to a park 90-minutes from here a few days after the murder...why did you do that...oh, lets go check that park...hey, looks like something was dug up here or metal detector finds HOLY CRAP IT'S THE MURDER WEAPON!!!!

He does his own closing argument. Again, NFW lead council lets him do that. And it wasn't that great. I though the DA had a much better closing.

The icing on the cake was they're all happy and together at Thanksgiving. His wife would have left his ass so fast after this whole thing, let alone after he accused her of the Murder.

The movie version was 10x better than this mess.
agracer
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AG
20ag07 said:

The cover-up too- just beyond suspension of disbelief. Like, I'm expected to believe Rusty, who was so mentally unwell, that he went back to Carolyn's house for the 2nd time in a night after sending her an obsessive level of messages, found the person he was so obsessed dead, and was able to recover mentally in a matter of minutes to frame someone else AND JUST HAPPENED TO HAVE ROPE IN HIS CAR?

No one in Chicago just carries rope in the
ir car.

If they were going to go this route, then at least make the Bunny crime, and then the attempted cover-up make logistical sense.

So many bad bad writing choices.
I thought he got the rope from somewhere in the house.

Either way, his DNA/skin cells are ALL OVER THAT rope after he used it to tie her up.

And NFW both he and the daughter left the scene with zero blood evidence in either of the vehicles.
BMX Bandit
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Quote:

But like it's utter insanity that he went BACK to her house at midnight that night after he had ALREADY been there earlier.
Why is that insane? he was obsessed with her. wanted a nut.



I agree about the rest though. complete cop-out
20ag07
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Quote:

Why is that insane? he was obsessed with her. wanted a nut.
She had already let him in the house that night!

Why is he going back again?!?

And the wife, who clearly had some issues, is not going to notice if her husband (who she previously caught having an affair), didn't come home til 9PM, and then left again at midnight? And she just, didn't notice?

The one thing they did do, was show her with a glass of wine at all times. Like even in the finale, if she wasn't holding it, it was sitting in the background.

So I guess the implication was that she was passed out half the time, and didn't notice all the people coming in and out of her house at all hours of the night. But they didn't tie that together if you didn't notice.
20ag07
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Quote:

The movie version was 10x better than this mess.
The movie, and I'm not even sure if it's "good", but once you watch this mess compared, you're like "damn that was such a better choice" like at least 12 times. "And why did we choose to do this in this stupid TV show?"
Joan Wilder
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I have the same question…why did he go back to her house that night? I don't think she told him she was pregnant when he went over there earlier, correct? It's frustrating story telling to drop a new piece of information like that in the final minutes of the show.

It bugged me we never got a timeline of Rusty's movements that night - how long was he at Carolyn's, what was the time of death (we didn't get that until the very last witness)…the fun of a legal mystery like this is to try to solve it yourself, but the show withheld all of the key information despite 8 episodes compared to a 2 hour movie.
Cinco Ranch Aggie
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The show was barely passable, but it did inspire the wife and I to watch the movie. We are literally watching the movie now just a few minutes after wrapping up the show. Wife has never seen the movie, but what the movie is showing to me is its vast superiority.
 
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