*** JFK REVISITED: THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS *** (Documentary)

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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 1:11p, 12/12/21
AG
Bighunter43 said:
DannyDuberstein said:
schmidthead said:
They're right when they say it couldn't have happened that way as there is no forensic evidence supporting a frontal shot.


This. I've always been amazed at how people could buy the grassy knoll theory. Totally nonsensical


And yet 2of JFK's most trusted aides who in the car behind him felt that shot(s) also came from the front....I'm sure they were "totally nonsensical!"
https://www.amazon.com/Johnny-We-Hardly-Knew-Fitzgerald/dp/B00G787NLI

In the book that Ken ODonnell and David Powers wrote together in the 70s, they both claimed that they heard 3 shots and did not say that any of them came from the Grassy Knoll.

I will take their sworn witness testimony and the book that they wrote a decade later over a screenshot of someone else saying that they totally lied, I promise.
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DannyDuberstein
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 1:11p, 12/12/21
AG
Eye witnesses suck. Especially eye witnesses to a crazy, traumatic event. But when you actually take the time and break down the actual facts, it makes zero sense. None
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Bighunter43
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 1:15p, 12/12/21
AG
DannyDuberstein said:
Eye witnesses suck. Especially eye witnesses to a crazy, traumatic event. But when you actually take the time and break down the actual facts, it makes zero sense. None


So....ALL eyewitnesses who testified suck? You agree?
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DannyDuberstein
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 1:17p, 12/12/21
AG
Except for the eye witnesses that saw LBJ and a couple of mafia guys perched on the grassy knoll
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 1:17p, 12/12/21
Bighunter43 said:
DannyDuberstein said:
Eye witnesses suck. Especially eye witnesses to a crazy, traumatic event. But when you actually take the time and break down the actual facts, it makes zero sense. None


So....ALL eyewitnesses who testified suck? You agree?
Eyewitnesses are the least reliable form of evidence (outside of maybe hair analysis). They can provide general narratives, but they cannot be used as the basis of your case. Might as well consult a tarot card dealer.
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Bighunter43
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 1:34p, 12/12/21
AG
Sapper Redux said:
Bighunter43 said:
DannyDuberstein said:
Eye witnesses suck. Especially eye witnesses to a crazy, traumatic event. But when you actually take the time and break down the actual facts, it makes zero sense. None


So....ALL eyewitnesses who testified suck? You agree?
Eyewitnesses are the least reliable form of evidence (outside of maybe hair analysis). They can provide general narratives, but they cannot be used as the basis of your case. Might as well consult a tarot card dealer.


And yet they can be used as a basis for the Lone Nut Theory.....gotcha!!
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Bighunter43
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 1:36p, 12/12/21
AG
Guitarsoup said:
Bighunter43 said:
DannyDuberstein said:
schmidthead said:
They're right when they say it couldn't have happened that way as there is no forensic evidence supporting a frontal shot.


This. I've always been amazed at how people could buy the grassy knoll theory. Totally nonsensical


And yet 2of JFK's most trusted aides who in the car behind him felt that shot(s) also came from the front....I'm sure they were "totally nonsensical!"
https://www.amazon.com/Johnny-We-Hardly-Knew-Fitzgerald/dp/B00G787NLI

In the book that Ken ODonnell and David Powers wrote together in the 70s, they both claimed that they heard 3 shots and did not say that any of them came from the Grassy Knoll.

I will take their sworn witness testimony and the book that they wrote a decade later over a screenshot of someone else saying that they totally lied, I promise.


So I assume you are completely discrediting Tip O'Neill?
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DannyDuberstein
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 1:38p, 12/12/21
AG
Tip recalling a conversation that happened 20 years prior about something 5 years prior to that vs. the source itself putting it in print after the Tip conversation?

Yes
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 1:38p, 12/12/21
AG
Bighunter43 said:
Guitarsoup said:
Bighunter43 said:
DannyDuberstein said:
schmidthead said:
They're right when they say it couldn't have happened that way as there is no forensic evidence supporting a frontal shot.


This. I've always been amazed at how people could buy the grassy knoll theory. Totally nonsensical


And yet 2of JFK's most trusted aides who in the car behind him felt that shot(s) also came from the front....I'm sure they were "totally nonsensical!"
https://www.amazon.com/Johnny-We-Hardly-Knew-Fitzgerald/dp/B00G787NLI

In the book that Ken ODonnell and David Powers wrote together in the 70s, they both claimed that they heard 3 shots and did not say that any of them came from the Grassy Knoll.

I will take their sworn witness testimony and the book that they wrote a decade later over a screenshot of someone else saying that they totally lied, I promise.


So I assume you are completely discrediting Tip O'Neill?
I am going to believe the actual words said by ODonnell and Powers rather than the second or third hand account told by someone else at some later date. Yes. I don't care that Tip was the SOH or what. Original Source ALWAYS trumps hearsay. Always.
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DannyDuberstein
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 1:42p, 12/12/21
AG
Have you ever been to Dealey plaza? As someone that lived in this area my entire life and worked a block away for about 5 years, I have found that most folks who had never been there (and have an open mind either way) come away thinking the lone shooter is the only one that makes sense after seeing the layout
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 1:45p, 12/12/21
Bighunter43 said:
Sapper Redux said:
Bighunter43 said:
DannyDuberstein said:
Eye witnesses suck. Especially eye witnesses to a crazy, traumatic event. But when you actually take the time and break down the actual facts, it makes zero sense. None


So....ALL eyewitnesses who testified suck? You agree?
Eyewitnesses are the least reliable form of evidence (outside of maybe hair analysis). They can provide general narratives, but they cannot be used as the basis of your case. Might as well consult a tarot card dealer.


And yet they can be used as a basis for the Lone Nut Theory.....gotcha!!
They're used in support of the actual physical evidence, not as substitutes for it. Like I've said, eyewitnesses can provide a general, very broad narrative, but they should never be the basis for your case.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 1:47p, 12/12/21
DannyDuberstein said:
Have you ever been to Dealey plaza? As someone that lived in this area my entire life and worked a block away for about 5 years, I have found that most folks who had never been there (and have an open mind either way) come away thinking the lone shooter is the only one that makes sense after seeing the layout
Yeah, I'm in that boat. I wasn't particularly knowledgeable about the assassination; I just knew the disagreement around it and had seen JFK however many years ago. Walking around and going through the museum made a really strong case for Oswald being the lone gunman.
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Bighunter43
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 1:56p, 12/12/21
AG
DannyDuberstein said:
Have you ever been to Dealey plaza? As someone that lived in this area my entire life and worked a block away for about 5 years, I have found that most folks who had never been there (and have an open mind either way) come away thinking the lone shooter is the only one that makes sense after seeing the layout


Been there numerous times.....easy shot from the Sixth Floor...(especially the first one which is closest but not only missed the limo altogether....but the entire street)..doesn't prove 100% that Oswald acted ALONE!
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 1:59p, 12/12/21
AG
Bighunter43 said:
DannyDuberstein said:
Have you ever been to Dealey plaza? As someone that lived in this area my entire life and worked a block away for about 5 years, I have found that most folks who had never been there (and have an open mind either way) come away thinking the lone shooter is the only one that makes sense after seeing the layout


Been there numerous times.....easy shot from the Sixth Floor...(especially the first one which is closest but not only missed the limo altogether....but the entire street)..doesn't prove 100% that Oswald acted ALONE!
Do you think any other shots were fired besides the three by Oswald.

If so, screen cap and drop a pin on where else there were bullets fired.

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DannyDuberstein
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1:59p, 12/12/21
AG
And onto Ruby, he was a big-mouth no one in their right mind would trust to keep a conspiracy quiet. Also, Oswald was supposed to be transferred at 10 but they were delayed. Ruby goes to get cash for one of his girls nearby over an hour later, and basically falls ass backward into the chance to be what he thought would be seen as a hero. He was nowhere near at 10

Both of these guys were pathetic wannabe's in their own way. And we did not have our crap together in the early 60s as far as being naive about protecting folks. The POTUS is slowly rolling around a downtown areas in a danged convertible. This requires no conspiracy to take him out
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Bighunter43
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 2:12p, 12/12/21
AG
Sapper Redux said:
DannyDuberstein said:
Have you ever been to Dealey plaza? As someone that lived in this area my entire life and worked a block away for about 5 years, I have found that most folks who had never been there (and have an open mind either way) come away thinking the lone shooter is the only one that makes sense after seeing the layout
Yeah, I'm in that boat. I wasn't particularly knowledgeable about the assassination; I just knew the disagreement around it and had seen JFK however many years ago. Walking around and going through the museum made a really strong case for Oswald being the lone gunman.


The museum is designed to promote the Lone Gunman Theory.....you won't find any dissenting theories there..no books in its extensive collection for sale with anything other than Lone Gunman! I (and others) always found it quite interesting that long time 6th Floor Museum curator Gary Mack switched from a devout conspiracy theorist (he took credit for finding "badge man" behind the fence) to the curator of the museum after he was "offered" a rather lucrative position to change his mind. Mack (now dead) and the museum went as far as to try to "legally" chase Robert Groden (the one who brought the Zapruder film on Geraldo and thus to the American public)from peddling his conspiracy theories on the footsteps of the grassy knoll. I personally do not condone some of Groden's theories....but by all means I'm against the museum "strong-arming" anyone with an opposing viewpoint!
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Bighunter43
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 2:15p, 12/12/21
AG
DannyDuberstein said:
And onto Ruby, he was a big-mouth no one in their right mind would trust to keep a conspiracy quiet. Also, Oswald was supposed to be transferred at 10 but they were delayed. Ruby goes to get cash for one of his girls nearby over an hour later, and basically falls ass backward into the chance to be what he thought would be seen as a hero. He was nowhere near at 10

Both of these guys were pathetic wannabe's in their own way. And we did not have our crap together in the early 60s as far as being naive about protecting folks. The POTUS is slowly rolling around a downtown areas in a danged convertible. This requires no conspiracy to take him out


About to go deer hunting this afternoon....but I'll delve into Ruby when I return this evening. Let's not be so condescending to opposing viewpoints shall we.
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DannyDuberstein
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2:18p, 12/12/21
AG
I'd recommend sparing yourself the time
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DannyDuberstein
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2:29p, 12/12/21
AG
And fwiw, by visit Dealey plaza, I don't mean go thru their presentation. I just mean examine the actual location, the close proximity, and how laughable it would be for someone to be on the grassy knoll with a rifle.
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Bighunter43
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 2:32p, 12/12/21
AG
DannyDuberstein said:
I'd recommend sparing yourself the time


Then you don't know me very well....I can lay out some nice evidence of Ruby mob connections found in released files, etc...again....I applaud Soup's professionalism, but your condescension is unnecessary.
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DannyDuberstein
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2:37p, 12/12/21
AG
He was a killer, a pathetic dude, and I'm sure connected to all sorts of shady people. Many violent people are. Doesn't mean conspiracy. He would have been an awful "hush" man.
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Bighunter43
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 2:40p, 12/12/21
AG
DannyDuberstein said:
And fwiw, by visit Dealey plaza, I don't mean go thru their presentation. I just mean examine the actual location, the close proximity, and how laughable it would be for someone to be on the grassy knoll with a rifle.


As I said earlier....I've been there numerous times and walked different areas of the Plaza....thanks.
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Bighunter43
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 2:41p, 12/12/21
AG
DannyDuberstein said:
He was a killer, a pathetic dude, and I'm sure connected to all sorts of shady people. Many violent people are. Doesn't mean conspiracy. He would have been an awful "hush" man.


Doesn't mean there wasn't a conspiracy either....
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DannyDuberstein
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 2:45p, 12/12/21
AG
Bighunter43 said:
DannyDuberstein said:
And fwiw, by visit Dealey plaza, I don't mean go thru their presentation. I just mean examine the actual location, the close proximity, and how laughable it would be for someone to be on the grassy knoll with a rifle.


As I said earlier....I've been there numerous times and walked different areas of the Plaza....thanks.


And the grassy knoll with plenty of people around, poor cover, etc. seems like a logical place to stage someone with a rifle? Of all of the locations along a parade route involving plenty of multi-story buildings published in the papers days earlier?
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Bighunter43
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 2:54p, 12/12/21
AG
DannyDuberstein said:
Bighunter43 said:
DannyDuberstein said:
And fwiw, by visit Dealey plaza, I don't mean go thru their presentation. I just mean examine the actual location, the close proximity, and how laughable it would be for someone to be on the grassy knoll with a rifle.


As I said earlier....I've been there numerous times and walked different areas of the Plaza....thanks.


And the grassy knoll with plenty of people around, poor cover, etc. seems like a logical place to stage someone with a rifle? Of all of the locations along a parade route involving plenty of multi-story buildings published in the papers days earlier?


Except there were very few people in that particular area....virtually no one behind the fence.
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Rocagnante
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3:01p, 12/12/21
AG
Not an official conspiracy theory discussion until Spyderman chimes in.
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double aught
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In reply to Rocagnante • 3:04p, 12/12/21
AG
Let's hope not. I'm not interested in hearing how aliens were involved.
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Rocagnante
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In reply to double aught • 3:22p, 12/12/21
AG
But they are. JFK was about to go public with what the govt knows. Full disclosure. He was silenced to prevent it. I thought that was common knowledge?
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Rocagnante • 3:24p, 12/12/21
Rocagnante said:
But they are. JFK was about to go public with what the govt knows. Full disclosure. He was silenced to prevent it. I thought that was common knowledge?
JFK IS an alien. That's why the shot to the head didn't kill him. He only keeps his extra appendix in there.
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DannyDuberstein
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3:25p, 12/12/21
AG
The alien was in his head. That's why his noggin was so big. The shot killed both
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to TCTTS • 3:34p, 12/12/21
AG
TCTTS said:
I highly recommend this recent Rewatchables episode from the Ringer podcasts, in which Simmons & co basically have the exact same convo we're having in this thread. They're mostly revisiting Stone's JFK, but a couple of them have seen Stone's new documentary as well, and break it all down in pretty entertaining fashion...




https://www.theringer.com/2021/12/2/22812057/jfk-with-bill-simmons-chris-ryan-sean-fennessey-and-brian-koppelman
Just listened to it while doing yardwork. Very good episode.

The main thing I would quibble with him is the point that Bill goes back to over and over and over:

Who benefitted from JFK's death?


Well, sure, a ****ton of people benefitted. But that doesn't mean they did it.

Who benefitted the most from MLK's assassination?
Who benefitted the most from Garfield's assassination?
Who benefitted the most from McKinley's assassination?
Who benefitted the most from Gabby Gifford's attempted assassination?
Who benefitted the most from John Lennon's assassination?
Who benefitted the most from Reagan's assassination (had it been successful?)
A nutjob stole a forklift and was going to try to kill Trump by using the forklift on The Beast, but he got the forklift stuck. Who would have benefitted the most from that assassination?
A nutjob flew a cessna into the White House to kill Clinton (who wasn't home.) Who had the most to gain?
Did Booth have the most to gain from Lincoln's death?
Did Squeaky Fromme have the most to gain from Ford's death?
Did the Puerto Ricans have the most to gain from Truman's death?

It's just a dumb point, but Simmons (and Oliver Stone) thinks it is brilliant.

You look at the people that committed these assassinations and attempted assassinations, and most of them have pretty much nothing to lose. They are pretty much all mentally ill, idiots, or losers down on their luck. A few (like the PR activists or Booth) wanted to send a message. But most aren't like that and I can't think of any major assassination where the person that stands to benefit the most is the one that commits the act.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 3:38p, 12/12/21
AG
Bighunter43 said:
DannyDuberstein said:
Bighunter43 said:
DannyDuberstein said:
And fwiw, by visit Dealey plaza, I don't mean go thru their presentation. I just mean examine the actual location, the close proximity, and how laughable it would be for someone to be on the grassy knoll with a rifle.


As I said earlier....I've been there numerous times and walked different areas of the Plaza....thanks.


And the grassy knoll with plenty of people around, poor cover, etc. seems like a logical place to stage someone with a rifle? Of all of the locations along a parade route involving plenty of multi-story buildings published in the papers days earlier?


Except there were very few people in that particular area....virtually no one behind the fence.
It was an active stockyard that had people working there. There was an office building with windows that could clearly see the backside of the fence where a sniper would be.

In any event, a sniper would likely set up early to make sure the parade doesn't come through early. In fact, the parade came through late, so they would have to be set up for maybe 30-45min in a parking lot that people could freely access (or use) that happened to have people working there.

Additionally, to get a good shot, they needed to be elevated up a little, because they were up a hill and shooting down. This makes them more visible.

Finally, there were people just on the other side of the fence. That gun would have gone off right over their heads from 15-20 feet away and they don't react at all? Seems unlikely.

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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 3:41p, 12/12/21
AG
Bighunter43 said:
Sapper Redux said:
DannyDuberstein said:
Have you ever been to Dealey plaza? As someone that lived in this area my entire life and worked a block away for about 5 years, I have found that most folks who had never been there (and have an open mind either way) come away thinking the lone shooter is the only one that makes sense after seeing the layout
Yeah, I'm in that boat. I wasn't particularly knowledgeable about the assassination; I just knew the disagreement around it and had seen JFK however many years ago. Walking around and going through the museum made a really strong case for Oswald being the lone gunman.


The museum is designed to promote the Lone Gunman Theory.....you won't find any dissenting theories there..no books in its extensive collection for sale with anything other than Lone Gunman! I (and others) always found it quite interesting that long time 6th Floor Museum curator Gary Mack switched from a devout conspiracy theorist (he took credit for finding "badge man" behind the fence) to the curator of the museum after he was "offered" a rather lucrative position to change his mind. Mack (now dead) and the museum went as far as to try to "legally" chase Robert Groden (the one who brought the Zapruder film on Geraldo and thus to the American public)from peddling his conspiracy theories on the footsteps of the grassy knoll. I personally do not condone some of Groden's theories....but by all means I'm against the museum "strong-arming" anyone with an opposing viewpoint!
The museum isn't designed to promote the lone gunman theory. It has all the hard evidence that a conspiracy exists as well.

You can see it here:

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DannyDuberstein
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 3:41p, 12/12/21
AG
Not to mention, they drove thru all of downtown in a convertible along a pre-published route. There are literally thousands of better positions
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 3:47p, 12/12/21
AG
DannyDuberstein said:
Not to mention, they drove thru all of downtown in a convertible along a pre-published route. There are literally thousands of better positions
It was a long route and the grassy knoll would be essentially the last place before the limos sped up.



Seems like if there weren't a ton of people on the route, the car would be accelerating there, which would make the shot more difficult.

Plus from that vantage, you are shooting left to right, which is harder than Lee's vantage of shooting down and straight. Pretty much all the roofs of those fairly short buildings are much better locations.
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