*** JFK REVISITED: THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS *** (Documentary)

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mrmill3218
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 2:26p, 12/13/21
AG
Sapper Redux said:
mrmill3218 said:
Thanks for answering my questions. I will watch the rest of the doc and I'm sure will have many more.

Interestingly enough, one of my friend's dad's performed the funeral service for LHO.


Woah. That must have been surreal.

He said he wasn't supposed to do it, but the other guy backed out last minute so that asked him. I found a paper about JFK at my father-in-law's house from right after it happened. Sure enough, his name was in there when they talked about LHO's funeral.
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SidsBurnerAccount
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2:31p, 12/13/21
Watch the "Beyond the Magic Bullet" 2004 documentary that guitarsoup posted early in the thread. I had missed it somehow and it was the best thing I've now seen on explaining the Lone Gunman theory. They shot original Carcano ammunition (including into a tree) and it barely deformed. I always wondered about the bullet not deforming more and that documentary helped me understand the so-called "pristine" bullet well.
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TCTTS
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2:31p, 12/13/21
AG
This thread has finally become everything I hoped it'd be. Thanks to Guitarsoup and everyone else so far for taking the time to both watch the doc and then ask/answer all these questions, in just this fashion. This really is a treasure trove of truly helpful and informative rebuttal.
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mrmill3218
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2:55p, 12/13/21
AG
Does anyone else always think of in Ace Ventura when he goes to the police station? They ask him why he's there and he says: "I came to confess... I was the second gunman on the Grassy Knoll!"
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to aTmAg • 3:08p, 12/13/21
AG
aTmAg said:
Agristotle said:
Fascinating thread, thanks to all. Soup, your command of this subject is amazing.

My lone contribution, many years ago I had a buddy in the intelligence community (interesting bona fides) say that so many people wanted JFK dead that some THINK they did, but didn't. PERSONALLY, he thought LBJ was in it up to his eyeballs.

After reading "The Devil's Chessboard" it's entirely conceivable to me that Dulles and his ilk could and would do it.
There is no way they could have kept it secret so long.
This is where I am as well.

Conspiracies exist. The CIA had a conspiracy to kill Castro. Well, conspiracies to kill several foreign leaders that went as well as the one to kill Castro. Conspiracy to kidnap Lincoln. The Mafia is basically one big organized conspiracy.

The deeper and more intricate the conspiracy, the more likely for it to be exposed. More people know, more moving parts and more chances for it to fail.

Let's think of a great criminal conspiracy - The Luftansas Heist. We all on here probably know it well from Goodfellas. They stole today's equivalent of about $25mm. They needed guys on the inside that were vulnerable, they needed guys to participate in the action, they needed people on the back end. Within six months, a dozen people involved were dead. At least five people involved ratted it out. Others like Henry Hill got busted doing other stuff and talked about it. But the wives and girlfriends of the dead guys knew and others knew that weren't involved (like Henry Hill.)

And that's the thing. Think how many people would need to be involved for an organization like the CIA or Mafia to pull off a hit. Maybe a dozen on the low end. And for it to be a CIA operation, wouldn't McCone need to have been involved or give the OK? Dulles was fired by Kennedy two years before the assassination. There would need to be a ton of people involved to work everything out and cover it up afterwards.

We're going to assume none of them ever made a deathbed confession like Mark Felt did, so he could cash in on being Deepthroat for his family? Everyone is going to take it to the grave? It's not like these guys are carrying FBI/CIA misdeeds to the grave. We find out all kinds of stuff.

I think an official CIA or Mafia operation like that would have eventually leaked. We would have some solid record of it. But we have thousands of mafia guys that have gone to jail and tons that have talked, plus lots of unwitting wiretaps and there is no talk about it. Death bed confessions? Books to cash in on it? Lots of guys have written books post-retirement. Not even a wiff of any conspiracy.

You just ultimately need more for a conspiracy than "Something looks off here." Cause yeah, something does look off. But there is no evidence that there is something off.
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cbr
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 3:20p, 12/13/21
AG
Guitarsoup said:
aTmAg said:
Agristotle said:
Fascinating thread, thanks to all. Soup, your command of this subject is amazing.

My lone contribution, many years ago I had a buddy in the intelligence community (interesting bona fides) say that so many people wanted JFK dead that some THINK they did, but didn't. PERSONALLY, he thought LBJ was in it up to his eyeballs.

After reading "The Devil's Chessboard" it's entirely conceivable to me that Dulles and his ilk could and would do it.
There is no way they could have kept it secret so long.
This is where I am as well.

Conspiracies exist. The CIA had a conspiracy to kill Castro. Well, conspiracies to kill several foreign leaders that went as well as the one to kill Castro. Conspiracy to kidnap Lincoln. The Mafia is basically one big organized conspiracy.

The deeper and more intricate the conspiracy, the more likely for it to be exposed. More people know, more moving parts and more chances for it to fail.

Let's think of a great criminal conspiracy - The Luftansas Heist. We all on here probably know it well from Goodfellas. They stole today's equivalent of about $25mm. They needed guys on the inside that were vulnerable, they needed guys to participate in the action, they needed people on the back end. Within six months, a dozen people involved were dead. At least five people involved ratted it out. Others like Henry Hill got busted doing other stuff and talked about it. But the wives and girlfriends of the dead guys knew and others knew that weren't involved (like Henry Hill.)

And that's the thing. Think how many people would need to be involved for an organization like the CIA or Mafia to pull off a hit. Maybe a dozen on the low end. And for it to be a CIA operation, wouldn't McCone need to have been involved or give the OK? Dulles was fired by Kennedy two years before the assassination. There would need to be a ton of people involved to work everything out and cover it up afterwards.

We're going to assume none of them ever made a deathbed confession like Mark Felt did, so he could cash in on being Deepthroat for his family? Everyone is going to take it to the grave? It's not like these guys are carrying FBI/CIA misdeeds to the grave. We find out all kinds of stuff.

I think an official CIA or Mafia operation like that would have eventually leaked. We would have some solid record of it. But we have thousands of mafia guys that have gone to jail and tons that have talked, plus lots of unwitting wiretaps and there is no talk about it. Death bed confessions? Books to cash in on it? Lots of guys have written books post-retirement. Not even a wiff of any conspiracy.

You just ultimately need more for a conspiracy than "Something looks off here." Cause yeah, something does look off. But there is no evidence that there is something off.
When the stakes are that high the only ones that might talk are the ones that literally have no one left on earth that they care about, and have a conscience, and that dont care about their name or legacy, and that think truth is better for the country than the coverup.

In other words, no one is going to talk.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to cbr • 3:28p, 12/13/21
AG
cbr said:
Guitarsoup said:
aTmAg said:
Agristotle said:
Fascinating thread, thanks to all. Soup, your command of this subject is amazing.

My lone contribution, many years ago I had a buddy in the intelligence community (interesting bona fides) say that so many people wanted JFK dead that some THINK they did, but didn't. PERSONALLY, he thought LBJ was in it up to his eyeballs.

After reading "The Devil's Chessboard" it's entirely conceivable to me that Dulles and his ilk could and would do it.
There is no way they could have kept it secret so long.
This is where I am as well.

Conspiracies exist. The CIA had a conspiracy to kill Castro. Well, conspiracies to kill several foreign leaders that went as well as the one to kill Castro. Conspiracy to kidnap Lincoln. The Mafia is basically one big organized conspiracy.

The deeper and more intricate the conspiracy, the more likely for it to be exposed. More people know, more moving parts and more chances for it to fail.

Let's think of a great criminal conspiracy - The Luftansas Heist. We all on here probably know it well from Goodfellas. They stole today's equivalent of about $25mm. They needed guys on the inside that were vulnerable, they needed guys to participate in the action, they needed people on the back end. Within six months, a dozen people involved were dead. At least five people involved ratted it out. Others like Henry Hill got busted doing other stuff and talked about it. But the wives and girlfriends of the dead guys knew and others knew that weren't involved (like Henry Hill.)

And that's the thing. Think how many people would need to be involved for an organization like the CIA or Mafia to pull off a hit. Maybe a dozen on the low end. And for it to be a CIA operation, wouldn't McCone need to have been involved or give the OK? Dulles was fired by Kennedy two years before the assassination. There would need to be a ton of people involved to work everything out and cover it up afterwards.

We're going to assume none of them ever made a deathbed confession like Mark Felt did, so he could cash in on being Deepthroat for his family? Everyone is going to take it to the grave? It's not like these guys are carrying FBI/CIA misdeeds to the grave. We find out all kinds of stuff.

I think an official CIA or Mafia operation like that would have eventually leaked. We would have some solid record of it. But we have thousands of mafia guys that have gone to jail and tons that have talked, plus lots of unwitting wiretaps and there is no talk about it. Death bed confessions? Books to cash in on it? Lots of guys have written books post-retirement. Not even a wiff of any conspiracy.

You just ultimately need more for a conspiracy than "Something looks off here." Cause yeah, something does look off. But there is no evidence that there is something off.
When the stakes are that high the only ones that might talk are the ones that literally have no one left on earth that they care about, and have a conscience, and that dont care about their name or legacy, and that think truth is better for the country than the coverup.

In other words, no one is going to talk.
I don't think so. There is always a weak point and people by their nature want to talk. Someone may have needed it to get out of jail or gambling debts or get out of being caught doing something bad. If they were willing to conspire the kill the president of the united states, they probably were willing to do other really bad stuff.

They cared about the best thing for the country, but they conspired to kill the POTUS? Get outta here with that.

A CIA officer that probably served in WWII, Korea, or both doesn't kill the President for the Good of America.

The stakes were real freaking high for the Luftansa Heist. So high that a dozen people involved were dead within 6 months. Literally life and death. Same with everything with the mafia. They swore an oath on their life. That's as high as stakes get. And people still talked.
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JJxvi
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3:31p, 12/13/21
AG
Most people in the country already believe in a conspiracy even when it most likely doesn't exist. If it did exist, some of those involved would absolutely tell what they know, precisely because it wouldn't be considered earth-shaking news at pretty much any time in the past 40 years. The national reaction would be "Huh, I knew it all along!" and not some kind of ostracization like if it was still fresh.
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aTmAg
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In reply to cbr • 3:32p, 12/13/21
AG
cbr said:
Guitarsoup said:
aTmAg said:
Agristotle said:
Fascinating thread, thanks to all. Soup, your command of this subject is amazing.

My lone contribution, many years ago I had a buddy in the intelligence community (interesting bona fides) say that so many people wanted JFK dead that some THINK they did, but didn't. PERSONALLY, he thought LBJ was in it up to his eyeballs.

After reading "The Devil's Chessboard" it's entirely conceivable to me that Dulles and his ilk could and would do it.
There is no way they could have kept it secret so long.
This is where I am as well.

Conspiracies exist. The CIA had a conspiracy to kill Castro. Well, conspiracies to kill several foreign leaders that went as well as the one to kill Castro. Conspiracy to kidnap Lincoln. The Mafia is basically one big organized conspiracy.

The deeper and more intricate the conspiracy, the more likely for it to be exposed. More people know, more moving parts and more chances for it to fail.

Let's think of a great criminal conspiracy - The Luftansas Heist. We all on here probably know it well from Goodfellas. They stole today's equivalent of about $25mm. They needed guys on the inside that were vulnerable, they needed guys to participate in the action, they needed people on the back end. Within six months, a dozen people involved were dead. At least five people involved ratted it out. Others like Henry Hill got busted doing other stuff and talked about it. But the wives and girlfriends of the dead guys knew and others knew that weren't involved (like Henry Hill.)

And that's the thing. Think how many people would need to be involved for an organization like the CIA or Mafia to pull off a hit. Maybe a dozen on the low end. And for it to be a CIA operation, wouldn't McCone need to have been involved or give the OK? Dulles was fired by Kennedy two years before the assassination. There would need to be a ton of people involved to work everything out and cover it up afterwards.

We're going to assume none of them ever made a deathbed confession like Mark Felt did, so he could cash in on being Deepthroat for his family? Everyone is going to take it to the grave? It's not like these guys are carrying FBI/CIA misdeeds to the grave. We find out all kinds of stuff.

I think an official CIA or Mafia operation like that would have eventually leaked. We would have some solid record of it. But we have thousands of mafia guys that have gone to jail and tons that have talked, plus lots of unwitting wiretaps and there is no talk about it. Death bed confessions? Books to cash in on it? Lots of guys have written books post-retirement. Not even a wiff of any conspiracy.

You just ultimately need more for a conspiracy than "Something looks off here." Cause yeah, something does look off. But there is no evidence that there is something off.
When the stakes are that high the only ones that might talk are the ones that literally have no one left on earth that they care about, and have a conscience, and that dont care about their name or legacy, and that think truth is better for the country than the coverup.

In other words, no one is going to talk.
They would have done so anonymously. People have done that for decades without getting caught.
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mrmill3218
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3:53p, 12/13/21
AG
Why didn't the two girls see Oswald going down the stairs?!

Last question for tonight!
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JJxvi
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In reply to mrmill3218 • 3:55p, 12/13/21
AG
mrmill3218 said:
Why didn't the two girls see Oswald going down the stairs?!

Last question for tonight!
Why does it matter?
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to mrmill3218 • 3:58p, 12/13/21
AG
mrmill3218 said:
Why didn't the two girls see Oswald going down the stairs?!

Last question for tonight!
They went from 4th floor to 1st floor immediately. Oswald put away the gun and went from 6th floor to 2nd floor.

They just didn't see him or cross paths. If their timing didn't happen to coincide perfectly, they wouldn't run into each other. They also didn't see the cop or Roy, who we know was there.
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aTmAg
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 4:11p, 12/13/21
AG
Guitarsoup said:
mrmill3218 said:
Why didn't the two girls see Oswald going down the stairs?!

Last question for tonight!
They went from 4th floor to 1st floor immediately. Oswald put away the gun and went from 6th floor to 2nd floor.

They just didn't see him or cross paths. If their timing didn't happen to coincide perfectly, they wouldn't run into each other. They also didn't see the cop or Roy, who we know was there.
Out of curiosity, do you know what color underwear Oswald was wearing?
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JJxvi
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4:18p, 12/13/21
AG
Working class men's underwear in 1963...i bet I could guess. But soup I'm sure knows for sure.
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Jugstore Cowboy
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6:27p, 12/13/21
AG
Question for Soup or anyone that knows: I've always heard that it was JFK's decision to ride without a roof on the car, over the objection of the Secret Service. Was that fact publicized in advance?
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DannyDuberstein
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6:40p, 12/13/21
AG
JFK was always a big fan of convertibles (long before POTUS), and as a politician, he wanted to be more connected to the people and was willing to risk the security. The fact he was a handsome dude which played into him beating Nixon may have played into it too. So the fact he rolled in open tops was a common and well known practice. He still took the convertible in previous cities where he'd even had threats against him. So If there was a battle with SS, it was a battle SS had given up long before Dallas
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Bighunter43
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 6:53p, 12/13/21
AG
Guitarsoup said:
aTmAg said:
Agristotle said:
Fascinating thread, thanks to all. Soup, your command of this subject is amazing.

My lone contribution, many years ago I had a buddy in the intelligence community (interesting bona fides) say that so many people wanted JFK dead that some THINK they did, but didn't. PERSONALLY, he thought LBJ was in it up to his eyeballs.

After reading "The Devil's Chessboard" it's entirely conceivable to me that Dulles and his ilk could and would do it.
There is no way they could have kept it secret so long.
This is where I am as well.

Conspiracies exist. The CIA had a conspiracy to kill Castro. Well, conspiracies to kill several foreign leaders that went as well as the one to kill Castro. Conspiracy to kidnap Lincoln. The Mafia is basically one big organized conspiracy.

The deeper and more intricate the conspiracy, the more likely for it to be exposed. More people know, more moving parts and more chances for it to fail.

Let's think of a great criminal conspiracy - The Luftansas Heist. We all on here probably know it well from Goodfellas. They stole today's equivalent of about $25mm. They needed guys on the inside that were vulnerable, they needed guys to participate in the action, they needed people on the back end. Within six months, a dozen people involved were dead. At least five people involved ratted it out. Others like Henry Hill got busted doing other stuff and talked about it. But the wives and girlfriends of the dead guys knew and others knew that weren't involved (like Henry Hill.)

And that's the thing. Think how many people would need to be involved for an organization like the CIA or Mafia to pull off a hit. Maybe a dozen on the low end. And for it to be a CIA operation, wouldn't McCone need to have been involved or give the OK? Dulles was fired by Kennedy two years before the assassination. There would need to be a ton of people involved to work everything out and cover it up afterwards.

We're going to assume none of them ever made a deathbed confession like Mark Felt did, so he could cash in on being Deepthroat for his family? Everyone is going to take it to the grave? It's not like these guys are carrying FBI/CIA misdeeds to the grave. We find out all kinds of stuff.

I think an official CIA or Mafia operation like that would have eventually leaked. We would have some solid record of it. But we have thousands of mafia guys that have gone to jail and tons that have talked, plus lots of unwitting wiretaps and there is no talk about it. Death bed confessions? Books to cash in on it? Lots of guys have written books post-retirement. Not even a wiff of any conspiracy.

You just ultimately need more for a conspiracy than "Something looks off here." Cause yeah, something does look off. But there is no evidence that there is something off.


To say that NO ONE has talked, is extremely misleading and shows a lack of research on the topic. I specifically mentioned several pages back that the FBI has Marcello on tape admitting to killing Kennedy in operation CAMTEX (1985) Marcello also mentioned David Ferrie, Oswald and Jack Ruby. We know the FBI used informant Jack Van Laningham secretly recording Marcello as his roommate in his jail cell.
See attached for more on that....(Lamar Waldron's book The Hidden History of the JFK Assassination focuses mostly on Operation Camtex)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/opensourcejfkresearch.wordpress.com/2019/01/04/recently-declassified-documents-support-the-1979-house-select-committee-on-assassinations-conclusion-that-former-president-john-f-kennedy-was-probably-assassinated-in-a-conspiracy-involving-carlos-mar/amp/

Plus: we have Frank Ragano's (Trafficante's , Marcello's and Hoffa's lawyer) saying what Trafficante said to him about his involvement in the assassination.....see pic!
We have John Martino's statements: see pic!

We have David Morales statements: see pic!

We have Johnny Roselli's statements just before he was cut up and put in an oil drum right before he was due to testify before Congress about the assassination...see pic!

There are others.....now question is are they believable? The HSCA believed Marcello and Trafficante were involved.....and that there were connections between Ruby and organized crime, and it has nothing to do with the dictabelt recordings.
To say NO ONE has confessed is simply not true...Operating Camtex puts that to rest.





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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 7:10p, 12/13/21
AG
Quote:

To say that NO ONE has talked, is extremely misleading and shows a lack of research on the topic.
That's just funny.

Sure, lots of people have said they did it, including Woody Harrelson's dad.

We have no evidence to back up their claims. None. Did Marcello have power, money and ability? Sure. Do we have any evidence that he did it? Nope.

Dozens of people have confessed to being the Zodiac and DB Cooper. Should we believe them all, or look for corroborating evidence?


Quote:
The HSCA believed Marcello and Trafficante were involved
They believed that they had the ability and means to be involved, which is different than actually being involved. They uncovered no evidence of either being involved.


"The committee found that Marcello had the motive, means and opportunity to have President John F. Kennedy assassinated, though it was unable to establish direct evidence of Marcello's complicity".

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Bighunter43
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 7:18p, 12/13/21
AG
Guitarsoup said:
Quote:

To say that NO ONE has talked, is extremely misleading and shows a lack of research on the topic.
That's just funny.

Sure, lots of people have said they did it, including Woody Harrelson's dad.

We have no evidence to back up their claims. None. Did Marcello have power, money and ability? Sure. Do we have any evidence that he did it? Nope.

Dozens of people have confessed to being the Zodiac and DB Cooper. Should we believe them all, or look for corroborating evidence?


People have confessed to being involved....whether they were or not is certainly open for discussion! The HSCA felt Marcello and Trafficante were involved....and they were privy to way more information than you and I, so I'll take their word on it!
*** I have never seen a confession by Charles Harrelson that he was involved....I have seen taped statements where he says he WAS NOT involved however.....did you even bother to read about Operation Camtex?
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 7:21p, 12/13/21
AG
Bighunter43 said:
Guitarsoup said:
Quote:

To say that NO ONE has talked, is extremely misleading and shows a lack of research on the topic.
That's just funny.

Sure, lots of people have said they did it, including Woody Harrelson's dad.

We have no evidence to back up their claims. None. Did Marcello have power, money and ability? Sure. Do we have any evidence that he did it? Nope.

Dozens of people have confessed to being the Zodiac and DB Cooper. Should we believe them all, or look for corroborating evidence?


People have confessed to being involved....whether they were or not is certainly open for discussion! The HSCA felt Marcello and Trafficante were involved....and they were privy to way more information than you and I, so I'll take their word on it!
*** I have never seen a confession by Charles Harrelson that he was involved....I have seen taped statements where he says he WAS NOT involved however.....did you even bother to read about Operation Camtex?
"The committee found that Marcello had the motive, means and opportunity to have President John F. Kennedy assassinated, though it was unable to establish direct evidence of Marcello's complicity".


This is just a lie. This is what the Committee said.
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schmidthead
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 7:26p, 12/13/21
Now you're just being pedantic.
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Bighunter43
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7:39p, 12/13/21
AG
I stand corrected....You are correct....that is what the HSCA said!! Why would they even mention Marcello and Trafficante if there was NOTHING.....makes absolutely no sense. If there's zero indication of their involvement then you say that....but they mentioned they believe they had the motive, means and opportunity....doesn't quite add up. But we do have Marcello's taped confession in Camtex, and that cannot be denied.
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Bighunter43
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In reply to schmidthead • 7:41p, 12/13/21
AG
schmidthead said:
Now you're just being pedantic.


I miss quoted....my mistake and I will admit that.
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mrmill3218
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7:55p, 12/13/21
AG
It seems like Perry only flipped his entrance/exit wound theory after getting some heavy pressure from the secret service. He admitted later to a surgeon friend that it was absolutely an entrance wound.
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DannyDuberstein
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8:11p, 12/13/21
AG
EXCLAMATION
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mrmill3218
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8:14p, 12/13/21
AG
There was a bullet wound in his back!
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 8:27p, 12/13/21
AG
Bighunter43 said:
I stand corrected....You are correct....that is what the HSCA said!! Why would they even mention Marcello and Trafficante if there was NOTHING.....makes absolutely no sense. If there's zero indication of their involvement then you say that....but they mentioned they believe they had the motive, means and opportunity....doesn't quite add up. But we do have Marcello's taped confession in Camtex, and that cannot be denied.


A guy in jail bragging about crimes he got away with isn't exactly the most reliable thing.

LBJ had the motive , means and ability
CIA had the motive means and ability
Cuba had the motive, means and ability
Russia had the motive means and Ability

A guy with a $12 rifle shot the president, so most people in the western hemisphere had the money to pull it off. JFK wasn't liked by everyone and thousands or more people had motive.

What do we have actual evidence to support that any of these were involved
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to mrmill3218 • 8:45p, 12/13/21
AG
mrmill3218 said:
It seems like Perry only flipped his entrance/exit wound theory after getting some heavy pressure from the secret service. He admitted later to a surgeon friend that it was absolutely an entrance wound.


Here are his actual words.

He also said under testimony that a fully jacketed bullet with no deformities that only hits soft tissue could pass through clearly so that the entrance and exit wounds looked similar.


Dr. Perry's testimony: http://kenrahn.com/Marsh/WC/perry_m2.html

Mr. Specter.Will you describe that wound as precisely as you can, please?
Dr. Perry.The wound was roughly spherical to oval in shape, not a punched-out wound, actually, nor was it particularly ragged. It was rather clean cut, but the blood obscured any detail about the edges of the wound exactly.
Mr. Specter.What was the condition of the edges of the wound, if you can recollect?
Dr. Perry.I couldn't state with certainty, due to the fact that they were covered by blood. and I did not make a minute examination. I determined only the fact that there was a wound there, roughly 5 mm. in size or so.
Mr. Specter.Have you now described it as precisely as you can; that wound?
Dr. Perry.I think so.
Mr. Specter.What else, if anything, did you observe as to the condition of the President?
Dr. Perry. Spasmodic respiratory efforts were obvious, but I did not detect a pulse nor a heart beat on a very rapid examination. It was apparent that respirations were ineffective, even with the use of the endotracheal tube and oxygen. At that point I asked Dr. Carrico if this was a wound in his neck or had he begun the tracheotomy, and he said it was a wound and I, at that point, asked someone to get me a tracheotomy tray, and put on some gloves and. initiated the procedure.
Mr. Specter.Now, have you described everything that you can recollect about your observations of the President before you started to work on him?
Dr. Perry.There Was no evidence to that cursory examination of any other wound. I did not move the President. I did not turn him over.
Mr. Specter.Why did you not turn him over?
Dr. Perry.At that point it was necessary to attend to the emergent procedure and a satisfactory effective airway is uppermost in such a condition. If you are unable to obtain an effective airway, then the other procedures are to be of no avail.
Mr. Specter.Well, on the subject of turning him over, did you ever turn him over?
Dr. Perry.I did not.
Mr. Specter.Why didn't you turn him over after you had taken the initial action on him?
Dr. Perry.After the tracheotomy tube was in place and we were breathing for him, Dr. Clark and I had begun external cardiac massage, since we had been unable to detect a heart beat, blood pressure, or pulse. I continued with the cardiac massage while Dr. Clark examined the head wound, and he and Dr. Jenkins conferred in regard to the electrocardiogram. It was determined, that none of the resuscitative measures were effective and the procedures were then abandoned.
I had no further business in the room at that point, and I left the room momentarily. I returned within a minute or so, because I had left my coat where I dropped it and asked one of the nurses to hand me my coat, and I left the room and went to the operating suite from there.
Mr. Specter.And did that conclude your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy?
Dr. Perry.It did.

Mr. Specter.Were there sufficient facts available to you for you to reach a conclusion as to the cause of the wound on the front side of the President's neck?
Dr. Perry.No, sir, there was not. I could not determine whether or how this was inflicted, per se, since it would require tracing the trajectory

Mr. Specter.Well, what questions were asked of you and what responses did you give at that press conference?Dr. Perry.Well, there were numerous questions asked, all the questions I cannot remember, of course. Specifically, the thing that seemed to be of most interest at that point was actually trying to get me to speculate as to direction of the bullets, the number of bullets, and the exact cause of death.
The first two questions I could not answer, and my reply to them was that I did not know, if there were one or two bullets, and I could not categorically state about the nature of the neck wound, whether it was an entrance or an exit wound, not having examined the President further---I could not comment on any other injuries.
As regards the cause of death, Dr. Clark and I concurred that massive brain trauma with attendant severe hemorrhage was the underlying cause of death, and then there were questions asked in regard to what we did, and I described as I have for you, although not in such detail essentially the resuscitative measures that were taken at that time; namely, the reinfusion of a balanced salt solution of blood, Solucortef, assisting of respiration with oxygen and pressure apparatus, the tracheotomy, and the chest tubes and the monitoring with the cardiotachioscope.
Mr. Specter.Did you express a view as to what might have happened with respect to the number of bullets?
Dr. Perry.I was asked by several of the people of the press, initially, if there were one or two or more bullets, and to that, Dr. Clark and I both replied that we could not say. I was then asked if it was conceivable that it could have been caused by one bullet, and I replied in the affirmative, that I did not know, but it was conceivable.
Mr. Specter.Did you elaborate on how it could have been caused by one bullet?
Dr. Perry.I was asked if this were one bullet, how would it occur, and I said, "It is conceivable or possible that a bullet could enter and strike the spinal column and he deviated superiorly to exit from the head."
Mr. Specter.And where would that point of entry have been?
Dr. Perry.The surmise was made that if the point of entry were in the neck, how would it have happened, and that is the way I would have reconstructed it. Again, this was speculation.
Mr. Specter.Did you denominate it clearly as speculation?
Dr. Perry.I did.
Mr. Specter.Or, what could have been as opposed to what your opinion was?
Dr. Perry.I did. I said this was conceivable this was possible, but again, Dr. Clark and I emphasized again that we did not know whether there was one or two bullets.
Mr. Specter.Did you express any view as to whether it might have been one bullet or two bullets or either, or what?
Dr. Perry.I said I did not know.
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In reply to mrmill3218 • 8:56p, 12/13/21
mrmill3218 said:
It seems like Perry only flipped his entrance/exit wound theory after getting some heavy pressure from the secret service. He admitted later to a surgeon friend that it was absolutely an entrance wound.
As an ER physician that has cared for hundreds of GSWs, I can say with great certainty that any ER physician claiming to know definitively what was an entrance wound and what was an exit wound is typically FoS. It is why we don't document "entrance" or "exit" wound in our documentation because we do not have anywhere near the expertise to make that determination. Now there are plenty of times where I suspect a wound is an "entrance" or "exit" wound, but I am not an expert on that and I highly doubt Perry was either. So regardless of his opinion on the matter, it is pretty much irrelevant.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 8:58p, 12/13/21
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Bighunter43 said:
Why would they even mention Marcello and Trafficante if there was NOTHING.....makes absolutely no sense.
Because they investigated it. They mentioned everything they investigated and gave their findings on it.
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In reply to safety guy • 9:05p, 12/13/21
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safety guy said:
One question I have on Oswald is how many people had he shot prior to November 22. We know of the one shooting attempt prior but had he had actual experience in combat shooting at adversaries. He was a trained shooter but the magnitude of the moment was extreme. He was precise on shots 2 and 3. Particularly on shot 3, the president was starting to shift after shot 2. Sure, the distance was not great but it still took extreme skill in that situation to be that precise.
Nerves matter far more on the first shot. Have you ever shot rapid fire bolt action at something?

When you've really trained enough to develop muscle memory (really at any point in your adult life), instincts take over. Not to mention the first shot was by far the most awkward stance.

Just two years ago I saw a clean miss from my buddy on a stationary elk at about 225 yards. Just yanked it. But my buddy loads another round and then hit an elk right in the sweet spot at full speed quartering away from him at about 250 yards. I've only shot 2-3 pistol competitions, but my most missed targets are first and last for probably the same reason.

Different discipline but some people are better catch and shoot players in basketball than they are if they have time to set feet and think. It's the same type of muscle memory and instincts that take over when the brain doesn't have time to "think it through".
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 9:15p, 12/13/21
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Guitarsoup said:
Bighunter43 said:
I stand corrected....You are correct....that is what the HSCA said!! Why would they even mention Marcello and Trafficante if there was NOTHING.....makes absolutely no sense. If there's zero indication of their involvement then you say that....but they mentioned they believe they had the motive, means and opportunity....doesn't quite add up. But we do have Marcello's taped confession in Camtex, and that cannot be denied.


A guy in jail bragging about crimes he got away with isn't exactly the most reliable thing.

LBJ had the motive , means and ability
CIA had the motive means and ability
Cuba had the motive, means and ability
Russia had the motive means and Ability

A guy with a $12 rifle shot the president, so most people in the western hemisphere had the money to pull it off. JFK wasn't liked by everyone and thousands or more people had motive.

What do we have actual evidence to support that any of these were involved


I don't recall the HSCA indicating that any of those had the means, motive and opportunity...just Marcello and Trafficante....(so there's probably a logical reason for saying that)....the HSCA notes indicate they did find credible connections between Oswald, Ruby, even David Ferrie and known mob associates of Marcello....that the WC failed to find or follow up on.
You said we've had thousands of mafia guys who have gone to jail and no one has talked about it.....I responded that YES we have some that actually have, (Marcello and Camtex for sure)....and that is factual. Obviously, you were going to respond with "not credible"...and I even said, who knows if it's true....I have said numerous times that I have no problem with Oswald being involved and even firing shots....I just don't think he acted ALONE. Again, I respect your knowledge on the subject....we will never agree on it entirely...no disrespect intended on my part.
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 9:27p, 12/13/21
AG

Quote:
I don't recall the HSCA indicating that any of those had the means, motive and opportunity
So since HSCA didnt explicitly state the CIA had the ability to carry out an assassination, they didnt?
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 9:29p, 12/13/21
AG

Quote:
.I responded that YES we have some that actually have, (Marcello and Camtex for sure)....and that is factual. Obviously, you were going to respond with "not credible"
Sure, a ton of people have talked about it. Ted Cruz has alluded to being the Zodiac Killer.

We have no one that has talked about it that has given a full confession or explained how it went down or shown any evidence to back up their claims.

Maybe the NOLA mob did it, but we don't have a shred of evidence to support that other than a single guy bragging to another guy 25 years later while in jail.


Quote:
we will never agree on it entirely...no disrespect intended on my part.
Hey, I'm willing to change my mind. I just need evidence. I believe evidence supports the conclusions I have made.
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 9:39p, 12/13/21
AG
Bighunter43 said:
I stand corrected....You are correct....that is what the HSCA said!! Why would they even mention Marcello and Trafficante if there was NOTHING.....makes absolutely no sense. If there's zero indication of their involvement then you say that....but they mentioned they believe they had the motive, means and opportunity....doesn't quite add up. But we do have Marcello's taped confession in Camtex, and that cannot be denied.

Now who's showing a "lack of research on the topic?
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