Rey out force pulled the lightsaber in the forest. There still isn't a good explanation of how that was possible. This isn't ****ing Harry Potter - the wand does not choose the wizard. That scene is great to look at and fun in the moment, but it does not make sense.
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BUT THEN WE COULDN'T HAVE THE ALL-IMPORTANT J.J. ABRAMS MYSTERY BOX!
Ugh.
Seriously, that would have been so much better.
Ugh.
Seriously, that would have been so much better.
That's probably my second or third biggest gripe.Sex Panther said:
I think that's my biggest gripe with the new trilogy. Rey literally picks up a lightsaber for the first time and is apparently the most badass person in the galaxy. Nothing earned whatsoever. It's lame and doesn't make me connect with her the way I should. Which is a shame cuz Daisy definitely has the it factor.
My biggest is the First Order itself. I like Driver in the role. Hard guy in general not to like. It's not that Kylo Ren isn't a great character, he is, it's that the First Order is a joke. Compare it to the Empire. There was not one line of comedy relief uttered in OT by a single member of the Empire. Stormtroopers were mostly seen and not heard. Officers were professional and calculating. Take the short scene inside the AT-AT where General Veers has changed in to combat attire complete with armor and goes in to battle with his troops. My Lord, I have reached the main power generators. The shield will be down in moments, you may start your landing. It's so simplistic and perfect.
By comparison the First Order is anything but. It's borderline slapstick at times in its portrayal. That brings down Kylo's character. It's hard to take him seriously as a big bad when one of the Weasley's is being forced slapped around next to him like a little squealing beech. It's doesn't mesh. It's like any moment you expect Kylo to blurt out Jesus, this is like playing cards with my sister's kids. The First Order is more Spaceballs than OT.
Even MORE reason that TLJ should have been told along the lines of Godfather II with a heavy flashback sequence (i explain my rewrite theory more in the TLJ rehash thread). It could have made Rey's force use not seem so far out of left field.dromo07 said:
I still remember the rumors about Rey being a previous student of Luke and went into exile when the Kylo destroyed Lukes temple. Would have made more sense to have that but this is where we are I guess.
Agreed. I remember watching that scene for the first time thinking, "Oh, this is the moment my emotional investment in Rey is supposed to pay off" and feeling nothing, but then kind of convincing myself it was cool, but then ultimately arriving at the fact that it was just empty. Had Rey been a former student of Luke's as a kid, we could have had a flashback early on of her struggling to Force-grab an object from a distance or something and failing. Then, through her journey in the movie, she comes to better-understand her training as a child through real-world hardship, and finally, BAM - the payoff moment of her able to Force grab the lightsaber from a distance. Just anything to better setup/earn that moment.
Very well said. Spot on.
Damn it, now my mind is reeling again. Rey as a former student of Luke's would have been BRILLIANT. I'd honestly never heard that before...
- She's the only surviving student after the Kylo masacre. She's a little girl, finds a place to hide from the cargnage, and then, in the heat of the moment, her and Luke have to split up and go into hiding separately for some reason. Whatever the reason, it's a heartbreaking scene/flashback.
- Rey ends up on Jakku. Luke ends up on Ahch-To. Then, when the whole map-to-Luke-Skywalker element is introduced, there's so much more emotional investment in it for Rey. Luke is not only alive, but she has to get back to him. Then the end of the movie is such a poignant moment when they're finally reunited again.
- Same with Rey and Kylo. There'd be so much more history there. Kylo now has to finish the job he started. He has to kill the girl that got away; the girl that now not only has the map to Luke, but the girl Luke knew was special - maybe even more special than Kylo, which pissed him off even more as a kid, etc.
- We could also do away with the whole, stupid, "I have to get back to Jakku to wait on the family who abandoned me" thing that never made any sense to begin with. But if Abrams was hell bent on doing the mystery parents thing, that could still be introduced. Luke found her as a baby, abandoned. He could sense that the Force was strong in her, so he trained her. And then raise some question about who her parents might have been, why they left her, and follow that string if you want.
Ugh. This could have been such an amazing movie.
- She's the only surviving student after the Kylo masacre. She's a little girl, finds a place to hide from the cargnage, and then, in the heat of the moment, her and Luke have to split up and go into hiding separately for some reason. Whatever the reason, it's a heartbreaking scene/flashback.
- Rey ends up on Jakku. Luke ends up on Ahch-To. Then, when the whole map-to-Luke-Skywalker element is introduced, there's so much more emotional investment in it for Rey. Luke is not only alive, but she has to get back to him. Then the end of the movie is such a poignant moment when they're finally reunited again.
- Same with Rey and Kylo. There'd be so much more history there. Kylo now has to finish the job he started. He has to kill the girl that got away; the girl that now not only has the map to Luke, but the girl Luke knew was special - maybe even more special than Kylo, which pissed him off even more as a kid, etc.
- We could also do away with the whole, stupid, "I have to get back to Jakku to wait on the family who abandoned me" thing that never made any sense to begin with. But if Abrams was hell bent on doing the mystery parents thing, that could still be introduced. Luke found her as a baby, abandoned. He could sense that the Force was strong in her, so he trained her. And then raise some question about who her parents might have been, why they left her, and follow that string if you want.
Ugh. This could have been such an amazing movie.
If I remember correctly, been a long time now, the rumor was more for episode 8 when he hands Luke the light saber you get the flash backs and fill in the gaps at that point. Something about that being JJs treatment for the rest of the movies to follow but Rian kicked that to the curb so who knows if that was true or not.
If that really was the plan, and Johnson kicked it to the curb... what an idiot. That said, I feel like there would have been a few more clues planted, or Rey would have at least remembered training with Luke, etc.
dromo07 said:
but Rian kicked that to the curb so who knows if that was true or not.
This is what Rian did with those treatments.
Very well said.TCTTS said:
I think it's less that he isn't a badass and more that they stupidly/instantly gave Rey superpowers with no training whatsoever. So that dynamic naturally makes him look like a putz sometimes because he's supposed to be the well-trained Force user, but he's getting beat by a girl with no training. It's just a nonsensical dynamic that Kylo gets the worst of for no other reason than bad writing on Rey's part. But I remember watching Kylo's scenes the first time around - before Rey starts to get the upper hand - and thinking that he was such a formidable badass early on. That opening scene where he stops the laser in the mid air is amazing and I think more effective than even Vader's intro. He was a legit scary villain until they had the girl-with-no-training start to outmatch him when he's trying to Force-pull the map from her mind.
Wow, deep cut. And good catch.
I think we did talk about this, but more in the context of the **** show discussions of TLJ. A lot of us were expecting basically that plot you outlined, except with the addition of Luke wiping her memory to protect her (explaining why she doesn't know who she is, and the guilt of doing that possibly factoring into why he secluded himself, along with his failure). A lot of my personal irritation with the plot of TLJ was not that it didn't do exactly what I expected, but that we needed something to retroactively make TFA make sense emotionally and plotwise.
We're left hanging with a protagonist who doesn't earn her victories, Kylo/Han/Leia/ Snoke knowing who she is in TFA for no reason, and the Falcon somehow being right there next to her. TLJ was always going to have to carry some of the load for a fun-but-holey TFA. The famous "subverted expectations" were a problem because rather than delivering a coherent plot and emotional satisfaction in an unexpected way, they ripped the guts out of TFA and didn't replace them with anything.
We're left hanging with a protagonist who doesn't earn her victories, Kylo/Han/Leia/ Snoke knowing who she is in TFA for no reason, and the Falcon somehow being right there next to her. TLJ was always going to have to carry some of the load for a fun-but-holey TFA. The famous "subverted expectations" were a problem because rather than delivering a coherent plot and emotional satisfaction in an unexpected way, they ripped the guts out of TFA and didn't replace them with anything.
Imo, Kylo is a great villain, but Star Wars probably needs an unequivocally bad, in control, archetypal villain as the chief protagonist. At the end of the day, as much as some people like gray/ confused characters (including myself), they don't work that well in epic scale movies when everyone seems to be conflicted.
There's not really a battle between good and evil, and there's not enough time to explore the emotional doubts and depths of 4-5 characters in one movie that also has a big galaxy-ending threat that apparently has to be ended through remorselessly re-enacting the plot of the OT AND we have to make time for half a dozen lectures charged with current topics in political discourse.
I'm getting myself all wound up on TLJ again... it's such a mess.
There's not really a battle between good and evil, and there's not enough time to explore the emotional doubts and depths of 4-5 characters in one movie that also has a big galaxy-ending threat that apparently has to be ended through remorselessly re-enacting the plot of the OT AND we have to make time for half a dozen lectures charged with current topics in political discourse.
I'm getting myself all wound up on TLJ again... it's such a mess.
TLJ basically wanted to be different for the sake of being different rather than where the story led them.
but that's in the past and i'm with Kylo, ready to let the past die.
but that's in the past and i'm with Kylo, ready to let the past die.
Check your BR of Attack of the Clones. There is a deleted scene where Anakin and Padme go into her room on Naboo (it's PG so no funny business) and there are a couple of hologram photographs hanging on a wall.Brian Earl Spilner said:
Random/unrelated aside: I wonder if Kylo knows what Anakin looked like, and how similar they are?
This thought made me realize there's no such thing as pictures in Star Wars. It's actually kind of odd when you think about it. I guess they have holograms, though.
Already looking like Obi Wan!
Yellowpot beat you to it, but I'm thoroughly embarrassed. Coming off like a total amateur.
Yeah, I just got caught up on the thread and saw his thread.Brian Earl Spilner said:
Yellowpot beat you to it, but I'm thoroughly embarrassed. Coming off like a total amateur.
TCTTS said:
Damn it, now my mind is reeling again. Rey as a former student of Luke's would have been BRILLIANT. I'd honestly never heard that before...
- She's the only surviving student after the Kylo masacre. She's a little girl, finds a place to hide from the cargnage, and then, in the heat of the moment, her and Luke have to split up and go into hiding separately for some reason. Whatever the reason, it's a heartbreaking scene/flashback.
- Rey ends up on Jakku. Luke ends up on Ahch-To. Then, when the whole map-to-Luke-Skywalker element is introduced, there's so much more emotional investment in it for Rey. Luke is not only alive, but she has to get back to him. Then the end of the movie is such a poignant moment when they're finally reunited again.
- Same with Rey and Kylo. There'd be so much more history there. Kylo now has to finish the job he started. He has to kill the girl that got away; the girl that now not only has the map to Luke, but the girl Luke knew was special - maybe even more special than Kylo, which pissed him off even more as a kid, etc.
- We could also do away with the whole, stupid, "I have to get back to Jakku to wait on the family who abandoned me" thing that never made any sense to begin with. But if Abrams was hell bent on doing the mystery parents thing, that could still be introduced. Luke found her as a baby, abandoned. He could sense that the Force was strong in her, so he trained her. And then raise some question about who her parents might have been, why they left her, and follow that string if you want.
Ugh. This could have been such an amazing movie.
Yes. Her flashback from TFA had so much possibility. They did nothing with it Also when Kylo says "what girl" in tfa. Why would he say that if there wasn't a connection
Rian should have done all of his changeup with the new non Skywalker movies. Not in the middle of the Skywalker saga. Was completely misplayed
My saber has moved to The Mandalorian over IX after just watching the latest TM trailer.Farmer1906 said:
Is anyone else more excited for The Mandalorian than Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker?
TCTTS
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Same. I absolutely do not want to go through all the crap that's gonna come with him doing another one of these things, especially if it's three or four years from now and we have to endure another three or four years of (justified) b*tching and moaning. I'm looking forward to the build up less than I am the movie itself.
However.... with no previous movie to "subvert," zero expectations, and a 100% completely fresh start (in terms of characters, story, world, etc), I think he's at least capable of making a good Star Wars movie. Maybe even a great one. As much I disliked many of his choices in TLJ, they were mostly reactionary choices on his part. That, and he *was* limited in what he had to work with. Abrams didn't do him many favors in terms of story and character arcs, that's for sure.
This isn't me letting him off the hook at all, though. I'm just saying, there were A LOT of factors at play. And we know Johnson is an incredibly smart and talented filmmaker. Knives Out is getting rave reviews - maybe the best reviews of the year - and he's obviously made a number of other good and interesting films. So part of me is actually really curious to see what he can do in this universe with a clean slate, just not enough to have to endure three or four more years of all the hate.
Though, who knows... maybe Kennedy does leave in 2020, someone else comes in and completely cleans house, doesn't want the Johnson ill-will from fans going forward, and scraps his trilogy. I just have a feeling that with Benioff & Weiss stepping down, Lucasfilm is now looking to Johnson like never before. That was my very first thought the second I read the B&W news. As of late, it felt like Johnson's trilogy was fading for sure, but this latest turn may have, in fact, saved it.
However.... with no previous movie to "subvert," zero expectations, and a 100% completely fresh start (in terms of characters, story, world, etc), I think he's at least capable of making a good Star Wars movie. Maybe even a great one. As much I disliked many of his choices in TLJ, they were mostly reactionary choices on his part. That, and he *was* limited in what he had to work with. Abrams didn't do him many favors in terms of story and character arcs, that's for sure.
This isn't me letting him off the hook at all, though. I'm just saying, there were A LOT of factors at play. And we know Johnson is an incredibly smart and talented filmmaker. Knives Out is getting rave reviews - maybe the best reviews of the year - and he's obviously made a number of other good and interesting films. So part of me is actually really curious to see what he can do in this universe with a clean slate, just not enough to have to endure three or four more years of all the hate.
Though, who knows... maybe Kennedy does leave in 2020, someone else comes in and completely cleans house, doesn't want the Johnson ill-will from fans going forward, and scraps his trilogy. I just have a feeling that with Benioff & Weiss stepping down, Lucasfilm is now looking to Johnson like never before. That was my very first thought the second I read the B&W news. As of late, it felt like Johnson's trilogy was fading for sure, but this latest turn may have, in fact, saved it.
I think having her pick it up and have success right off the bat was fine. All the adrenaline, life or death scenario, friend just got sliced and diced, she wouldnt have been overthinking how to do it.
What would have been a good build off that, was to show her trying to use it in the 2nd movie and being very uncoordinated when in a structured environment. Actually struggle to learn, and gain abilities, progress in skill.
What would have been a good build off that, was to show her trying to use it in the 2nd movie and being very uncoordinated when in a structured environment. Actually struggle to learn, and gain abilities, progress in skill.
Not to be too late to respond to this, but the smartest move they made in the whole new trilogy, was casting him as Kylo. Casting an excellent actor in a pivotal role. Learning from the mistakes of the prequels with Hayden.TCTTS said:Cstrickland05 said:
I would like Kylo a lot more if they had gone with a different actor. That guy just looks like a Starbucks barista instead of someone wanting to take over for Darth Vader. Haven't seen him in anything else so he may be a great actor, but just doesn't fit what he should, at least to me. Plus he killed Han Solo, so he needs to die.
I don't know. He fits the role perfectly to me. That, and he's worked with Steven Spielberg, Martin Scorsese, the Coen Brothers, Steven Soderbergh, Noah Baumbach, and Jim Jarmusch. Basically ever major director is clamoring to work with him and he's almost assuredly going to be nominated for an Oscar this year with Marriage Story (which comes out next week), and is probably the favorite to win as of now. Then he has The Report coming out the week after that, which is getting stellar reviews as well. With TROS the very next month, the dude is about to be on apex mountain. He owns Hollywood right now.
C@LAg said:
This is canon Star Wars.
Porkin and Biggs, taking a vacation together before Death Star 1
Before the comments come in.... No, they have not been redefined as gay, if you are complaining about it. This is just a sequence from a story of two guys taking a vacation together.
You need to watch the interview or w/e Freddie Prince Junior did.
20+ years ago, Joel Schumacher ruined Batman.C@LAg said:
I really, really do not want that man to have a hand in any further Star Wars.
But I am surprised as anyone else that I am not a full time hater of him.
I am really really excited for "Knives Out".
Last year at this time I was dead set on never seeing anything from him ever again.
But his work outside of that franchise was/is good. The Lost Boys, Falling Down, Flatliners, A Time to Kill, Phone Booth.....all great. But people forget all that and just remember the Bat Nipples. When discussing comic book movies, the mere mention of his name draws groans.
Same is happening now.
Personally, I can't wait for "Knives Out."
OnlyForNow said:
You need to watch the interview or w/e Freddie Prince Junior did.
I've seen the rant; the arguments are lazy. What is the point of training if the force is going to determine everything? Also, Luke does not become the most powerful Jedi immediately. I guess Prinze is ok with lazy storytelling.