Rian was painted into a corner. Luke would not have sat around as literally an entire system of planets was obliterated.
That said, Rian also made mistakes.
That said, Rian also made mistakes.
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Again, Yoda and Obi-Wan sat around for almost two decades while their old friend Anakin and the Emperor terrorized the galaxy.
You just need to give Luke a reason to wait in hiding, or something on the island he has to watch over, etc.
You just need to give Luke a reason to wait in hiding, or something on the island he has to watch over, etc.
Oh thank God!Render said:
I feel I have addressed all misunderstandings about my opinion. This will be my last post on the subject.
This is so wrong it's sad.John Matrix said:
TLJ gets many things wrong, but Luke's arc is not one of them. It was jarring as hell to see him toss that lightsaber, but it completely fits with what his character has become--someone overcome with failure, guilt, and anger over his legacy. RJ took Luke's character about the only interesting place it could go. The easy thing would be to just turn him into Obi Wan Junior, but there would be no dramatic purpose for doing so--we've already seen that movie.
The climax featuring Luke literally facing his failure with Kylo head one is one of the defining moments of the series for me. The fact that the other elements of TLJ are uneven or downright bad is almost beside the point. They nailed Luke's character, and that goes a long way.
Luke could have been trapped...injured...he could have been hiding out from the New Order's mercenary army...he could have been training a rag tag group of young Jedi...
He didn't have to become this emo super jaded hippy pissed off at the world and living on the edge of a mountain. That was just dumb dumb writing.
The movie was crap for a ton of reasons - most of which have been inunciated by TCTTS and others several times before. RJ wrote this story arc into a corner that has harmed the franchise in the main and the potential for #9 to be the global walk off homer it could have been. Hopefully JJ is a magician and fixing other people's work.
Brian Earl Spilner said:
That said, Rian also made mistakes.
Naw. It's perfect. Flying Leia is my favorite SW moment.
For the record, it's not really Abram's fault either. It's a combination of Lucas/Kennedy/Michael Arndt...
- It was actually Lucas' idea to have Luke hiding away in seclusion on an island. This plot device was in Lucas' initial outline for Episodes VII, VIII, and IX, the same outline he handed over to Kennedy & co when he sold Lucasfilm to Disney (it sounds like he actually handed over the outline months before the sale was made official, during negotiations, so work on the ST could commence, but I'm not 100% sure).
- Summer 2012, Lucasfilm/Kennedy then hired Michael Arndt to start work on an Episode VII outline/script long before going after a director. If you aren't a fan of the Luke-in-hiding conceit, THIS juncture is where your issues should lie. While Kennedy and Arndt decided to ditch most of Lucas' outline, what they DID keep was the Luke-in-seclusion-on-an-island conceit. As I understand it, there were various iterations of this, one of which had Rey's character (then named "Kira") seeking out Luke and visiting him on the island in Episode VII. Another had Luke leaving the island and somehow meeting up with Rey & co later in the movie. Either way, Luke always started out Episode VII in seclusion on the island, but did have a somewhat bigger role.
- Granted, we don't know the nature of Luke's seclusion in Lucas'/Arndt's early outlines/drafts. For all we know, maybe Luke was trying even harder to commune with the Force, instead of rejecting it. That said, I don't know how much sense that would make, so it was likely almost always meant to be an emo/rejecting-the-Force Luke.
- When Abrams was hired in January 2013, he's the one who essentially decided to punt on Luke altogether, have him "missing" for most of the movie, and instead focus primarily on the new cast of characters. Whether this decision was primarily made in service of the new characters - or perhaps also because Abrams didn't quite know or agree with how to handle Luke in seclusion - is unknown. But Abrams is the one who essentially decided to avoid the issue altogether and let the next guy deal with it. It's his "fault" in that regard, but it was a plot point already laid at his feet, one that he did his best to write around in the short amount of time he and Kasden had to rewrite the script.
- Johnson then started work on his screenplay roughly around the time Episode VII started shooting. So at first, all Johnson had to go by was an in-flux draft of Episode VII, one that was constantly reworked all throughout filming of Episode VII.
Personally, I don't mind Luke's arc at all in TLJ. And I agree that it would probably be boring if he were the exact same person we remembered from 30 years ago. He needed an arc for the ST, and I guess this was maybe the only way to achieve that? I just wish they would have executed it better.
When Episode VII started filming, and rumors first started to leak that Luke himself was the MacGuffin in Episode VII, my initial thought was that he had been kidnapped; that someone was holding him against his will in some way, and that it was the hero's goal to find/save him. I don't know if that would have worked, but if the mandate was that Luke HAD to be in seclusion, and even HAD come to the conclusion that the Jedi had to "end," I wish we could have at least seen him come to that conclusion. In that sense, I wish we saw more of the mental struggle he was going through to finally arrive at that point, and maybe someone else forcing him into "seclusion" would have aided that in some way. I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud at this point, but mainly wanted to say that it's definitely not even Abrams' fault that we're currently in the situation we're in. It was Lucas' idea, but once again, Kennedy should have had a better hold on / plan for this franchise at the outset, and maybe a different decision would have been made.
- It was actually Lucas' idea to have Luke hiding away in seclusion on an island. This plot device was in Lucas' initial outline for Episodes VII, VIII, and IX, the same outline he handed over to Kennedy & co when he sold Lucasfilm to Disney (it sounds like he actually handed over the outline months before the sale was made official, during negotiations, so work on the ST could commence, but I'm not 100% sure).
- Summer 2012, Lucasfilm/Kennedy then hired Michael Arndt to start work on an Episode VII outline/script long before going after a director. If you aren't a fan of the Luke-in-hiding conceit, THIS juncture is where your issues should lie. While Kennedy and Arndt decided to ditch most of Lucas' outline, what they DID keep was the Luke-in-seclusion-on-an-island conceit. As I understand it, there were various iterations of this, one of which had Rey's character (then named "Kira") seeking out Luke and visiting him on the island in Episode VII. Another had Luke leaving the island and somehow meeting up with Rey & co later in the movie. Either way, Luke always started out Episode VII in seclusion on the island, but did have a somewhat bigger role.
- Granted, we don't know the nature of Luke's seclusion in Lucas'/Arndt's early outlines/drafts. For all we know, maybe Luke was trying even harder to commune with the Force, instead of rejecting it. That said, I don't know how much sense that would make, so it was likely almost always meant to be an emo/rejecting-the-Force Luke.
- When Abrams was hired in January 2013, he's the one who essentially decided to punt on Luke altogether, have him "missing" for most of the movie, and instead focus primarily on the new cast of characters. Whether this decision was primarily made in service of the new characters - or perhaps also because Abrams didn't quite know or agree with how to handle Luke in seclusion - is unknown. But Abrams is the one who essentially decided to avoid the issue altogether and let the next guy deal with it. It's his "fault" in that regard, but it was a plot point already laid at his feet, one that he did his best to write around in the short amount of time he and Kasden had to rewrite the script.
- Johnson then started work on his screenplay roughly around the time Episode VII started shooting. So at first, all Johnson had to go by was an in-flux draft of Episode VII, one that was constantly reworked all throughout filming of Episode VII.
Personally, I don't mind Luke's arc at all in TLJ. And I agree that it would probably be boring if he were the exact same person we remembered from 30 years ago. He needed an arc for the ST, and I guess this was maybe the only way to achieve that? I just wish they would have executed it better.
When Episode VII started filming, and rumors first started to leak that Luke himself was the MacGuffin in Episode VII, my initial thought was that he had been kidnapped; that someone was holding him against his will in some way, and that it was the hero's goal to find/save him. I don't know if that would have worked, but if the mandate was that Luke HAD to be in seclusion, and even HAD come to the conclusion that the Jedi had to "end," I wish we could have at least seen him come to that conclusion. In that sense, I wish we saw more of the mental struggle he was going through to finally arrive at that point, and maybe someone else forcing him into "seclusion" would have aided that in some way. I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud at this point, but mainly wanted to say that it's definitely not even Abrams' fault that we're currently in the situation we're in. It was Lucas' idea, but once again, Kennedy should have had a better hold on / plan for this franchise at the outset, and maybe a different decision would have been made.
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Thanks for breaking that out. I don't want to be annoying, but poor RJ gets blamed for a lot and I like to try to cut him some slack where we can.
I would be curious to see Lucas' initial outline.
I would be curious to see Lucas' initial outline.
No problem. Who knows, it might be another decade or so, but I CANNOT WAIT for the inevitable, unofficial-but-well-researched, behind-the-scenes book on the making of the sequel trilogy. I'm sure at that point the outline will either be included or maybe we'll get a pretty detailed summary. I'm just so curious to know how the step-by-step decision-making process went down story-wise from basically summer 2012 to the release of TFA at the end of 2015.
John Matrix said:
The climax featuring Luke literally facing his failure with Kylo head one is one of the defining moments of the series for me. The fact that the other elements of TLJ are uneven or downright bad is almost beside the point. They nailed Luke's character, and that goes a long way.
I know we have hashed this out, but the fact that Luke did not actually go there, really cheapened the whole thing for me. Not granted when I watched the movie I thought for sure he was going to pull out his X-Wing and fly there and confront Kylo. I missed the wing being removed. So I set myself up for disappointment.
I just felt the Force Projection was a cop out because of how they wrote the story. It really cheapened the moment. Plus in terms of Kylo's arc, it seems his beef is in part that Luke wasn't there for him during his struggle with the Dark Side and instead just tried to end him. And once again when Kylo teeters on the edge of light and dark, Luke doesn't show up and instead plays force games. It just didn't land for me.
Right there with you. The entire movie is a meditation on inaction, stalling, and smoke and mirrors. What's so maddening and tough to debate about it is the fact that that's the movie Johnson chose to make. So, on one hand, he made a really good movie about inaction, stalling, and smoke and mirrors. And the people who champion that movie as being "good" aren't wrong. I - and others - simply happen to fundamentally disagree with the entire thematic premise, but more importantly, just find it incredibly boring and frustrating because of those very thematic choices.
TCTTS said:
No problem. Who knows, it might be another decade or so, but I CANNOT WAIT for the inevitable, unofficial-but-well-researched, behind-the-scenes book on the making of the sequel trilogy. I'm sure at that point the outline will either be included or maybe we'll get a pretty detailed summary. I'm just so curious to know how the step-by-step decision-making process went down story-wise from basically summer 2012 to the release of TFA at the end of 2015.
Can't wait to read this or watch the documentary
Man, Luke's reveal as a force projection is a top 10 saga moment for me.
The very definition of "becoming more powerful than you can possibly imagine."
The very definition of "becoming more powerful than you can possibly imagine."
In a vacuum, I do agree that it was cool. But in a movie that already had so much stalling and water treading, by the time we got to that showdown, I guess I just wanted something a little more concrete. Instead, it felt like the final, hollow cherry on top of a nothingness sundae.
I don't remember, at the end of Force Awakens wasn't Luke standing on the edge of that island weeping? If so, what was he weeping about of he was cut off from the Force? Most of us assumed he knew Han was dead. Then in the next movie that idea gets tossed worth the lightsaber.
If he wasn't weeping, and I honestly don't remember, was it just a sad look?
If he wasn't weeping, and I honestly don't remember, was it just a sad look?
Definitely wasn't weeping.
I am disappointed in myself for jumping back into a TLJ loop since it's not why I came to this thread today.
I think Rain could have had Luke be disconnected and not interested without the toss or the milking. Have Luke either refuse the lightsaber or have him get upset and actually throw it away. I could respect either of those moves more than a toss over the shoulder. And just skip the milking.
Now, other Star Wars discussion.
I finished the audiobook Master & Apprentice this week and I really enjoyed it overall. My only complaint is I wish they would have left out the story about why Kenobi doens't like flying. It was not as well done as the rest of the book.
I'm torn on picking up the Dooku audiobook. I just have an issue paying the same price for something that is half the length of most other books. Maybe I'll just hold off to see how well received it is.
I think Rain could have had Luke be disconnected and not interested without the toss or the milking. Have Luke either refuse the lightsaber or have him get upset and actually throw it away. I could respect either of those moves more than a toss over the shoulder. And just skip the milking.
Now, other Star Wars discussion.
I finished the audiobook Master & Apprentice this week and I really enjoyed it overall. My only complaint is I wish they would have left out the story about why Kenobi doens't like flying. It was not as well done as the rest of the book.
I'm torn on picking up the Dooku audiobook. I just have an issue paying the same price for something that is half the length of most other books. Maybe I'll just hold off to see how well received it is.
Ignoring story choices that were made for political reasons, Luke's reveal as a Force projection is my least favorite story choice of the ST. You think there was something at stake and it turns out that there wasn't. Just bad. Slapstick BS like the throw away or the seacow milking is cringey, but it doesn't affect the story.
If Luke needed to be hidden on an island, he could have been hurt, stranded, protecting something, intending to come back someday, meditating, developing his skills, building renewable housing for underprivileged families, solving a mystery, or just too old to be helpful... I feel like all of those and probably more are better aligned with his character and set up a more engaging story. That said, to (exaggerate) TCTTS's point, if the theme and tone you want is futility, indecision, and failure, there's not really a place for the scarred but optimistic farmboy.
If Luke needed to be hidden on an island, he could have been hurt, stranded, protecting something, intending to come back someday, meditating, developing his skills, building renewable housing for underprivileged families, solving a mystery, or just too old to be helpful... I feel like all of those and probably more are better aligned with his character and set up a more engaging story. That said, to (exaggerate) TCTTS's point, if the theme and tone you want is futility, indecision, and failure, there's not really a place for the scarred but optimistic farmboy.
Luke being a force projection and then dying afterwards was terrible to me and a big reason I hate Tlj.
Doubly frustrating when you realize Rian only did it because of the "gotcha" moment to it and not bc it was good storytelling.
Doubly frustrating when you realize Rian only did it because of the "gotcha" moment to it and not bc it was good storytelling.
Sine poena nulla lex.
Sine poena nulla lex.
I read your post in Debbie Downer's voice.TCTTS said:
In a vacuum, I do agree that it was cool. But in a movie that already had so much stalling and water treading, by the time we got to that showdown, I guess I just wanted something a little more concrete. Instead, it felt like the final, hollow cherry on top of a nothingness sundae.
Some new possible little tidbits from the new Claudia Gray novel, Master and Apprentice. It's mostly about Qui Gon, and talks a lot about his study (and sometimes obsession with) the prophesies of the ancient Jedi mystics.
A prophecy mentioned goes, "He who learns to conquer death will through his greatest student live again."
Seems relevant to Episode IX, and timely as it was written during a period that the Story Group would know the basics of TROS in order to provide Gray with such a tidbit. This may be old EU, but isn't as far as I can tell.
Another fun bit of prophesy quoted in the book is obvious, but still cool: She who was born of darkness shall give birth to darkness. Or something like that.
Almost done with the book and it's really good, like all of Gray's Star Wars stuff. Complex, twists and turns, really strong characters. Lots of Czerka Corporation stuff for you Star Wars RPG and Knights of the Old Republic fans. Talks a lot about Dooku in the context of him being Qui Gon's master and his study of prophesy. The book takes place shortly after he left the Order. The other Jedi character (other than a young Obi-Wan) is Rael Aveross and is a lot of fun. A very nontraditional Jedi.
The book has me eager to rewatch Episode I for the first time in many years, just for Qui Gon.
A prophecy mentioned goes, "He who learns to conquer death will through his greatest student live again."
Seems relevant to Episode IX, and timely as it was written during a period that the Story Group would know the basics of TROS in order to provide Gray with such a tidbit. This may be old EU, but isn't as far as I can tell.
Another fun bit of prophesy quoted in the book is obvious, but still cool: She who was born of darkness shall give birth to darkness. Or something like that.
Almost done with the book and it's really good, like all of Gray's Star Wars stuff. Complex, twists and turns, really strong characters. Lots of Czerka Corporation stuff for you Star Wars RPG and Knights of the Old Republic fans. Talks a lot about Dooku in the context of him being Qui Gon's master and his study of prophesy. The book takes place shortly after he left the Order. The other Jedi character (other than a young Obi-Wan) is Rael Aveross and is a lot of fun. A very nontraditional Jedi.
The book has me eager to rewatch Episode I for the first time in many years, just for Qui Gon.
Just finished that book this weekend. Agreed that it's a solid read and provides some interesting background on Dooku, as well as some interesting bits that will likely pop up in IX.
I feel like the Internet wants this so bad for the ensuing meltdown it will cause.
if it means no more Rose subplots...
Flashdiaz said:
if it means no more Rose subplots...
Conservative Star Wars fans be like...
The fact that Rose seemed an embodiment of many very liberal ideas really never crossed this conservative's mind - it was more the idea that Rose sucked as a character, she added nothing to the story (such as it was), and I actively rooted for her to either get squashed by a giant toad or blown up in a tragic accident in some spaceship's launch bay ...CJS4715 said:Flashdiaz said:
if it means no more Rose subplots...ConservativeStar Wars fans be like...
Thought I'd post some of my favorites on this topic: Star Wars interviews!
I don't know what it is, but damnit nearly every interview on a talk show that deals with Star Wars actors is just always a ton of fun! They're all great in person! Maybe it's cause we're so attached to their characters but they all just seem like such likable people.
So here is a collection of some of the great one's I've found that maybe some of you have seen and maybe some that you haven't. But either way I hope you enjoy!
Harrison Ford w/ Jimmy Kimmel
Best of Graham Norton w/ Star Wars
Mark Hamill tells a story about Sir Alec Guinness
Harrison Ford can't answer questions from fans on Jimmy Kimmel
Harrison Ford settles his feud with Chewie
Mark Hamill surprises Adam Scott
Harrison Ford demonstrates with broken leg
Mark Hamill and the biggest secret in cinema
Harrison Ford gives secrets for $1,000
I don't know what it is, but damnit nearly every interview on a talk show that deals with Star Wars actors is just always a ton of fun! They're all great in person! Maybe it's cause we're so attached to their characters but they all just seem like such likable people.
So here is a collection of some of the great one's I've found that maybe some of you have seen and maybe some that you haven't. But either way I hope you enjoy!
Harrison Ford w/ Jimmy Kimmel
Best of Graham Norton w/ Star Wars
Mark Hamill tells a story about Sir Alec Guinness
Harrison Ford can't answer questions from fans on Jimmy Kimmel
Harrison Ford settles his feud with Chewie
Mark Hamill surprises Adam Scott
Harrison Ford demonstrates with broken leg
Mark Hamill and the biggest secret in cinema
Harrison Ford gives secrets for $1,000
Reminder, Saturday is Star Wars Day. May the 4th be with you.
My wife has book fair this week in her library. All SW themed.
Now, if I dig out the Leia outfit and strategically place in her section of the closet without being too obvious, maybe I get lucky.
My wife has book fair this week in her library. All SW themed.
Now, if I dig out the Leia outfit and strategically place in her section of the closet without being too obvious, maybe I get lucky.
Slave Leia outfit????Urban Ag said:
Reminder, Saturday is Star Wars Day. May the 4th be with you.
My wife has book fair this week in her library. All SW themed.
Now, if I dig out the Leia outfit and strategically place in her section of the closet without being too obvious, maybe I get lucky.
Nah. White clingy one from a New Hope. Still....
White outfit Leia trivia.... she never wore a bra with it because Lucas said there would be no bra's in space. Just in case you want to keep it real.
A New Hope? That's a bed sheet with a belt....
Here! And this is one of the more expensive ones at $40
https://www.amazon.com/Jabbas-Prisoner-Princess-Costume-Small/dp/B001E510MM/ref=sr_1_3?crid=39RP9LA07EMHB&keywords=slave+leia+costume&qid=1556650042&s=gateway&sprefix=Slave+lei%2Caps%2C171&sr=8-3
Here! And this is one of the more expensive ones at $40
https://www.amazon.com/Jabbas-Prisoner-Princess-Costume-Small/dp/B001E510MM/ref=sr_1_3?crid=39RP9LA07EMHB&keywords=slave+leia+costume&qid=1556650042&s=gateway&sprefix=Slave+lei%2Caps%2C171&sr=8-3
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