People's reactions to Holdo are fascinating to me. I think her purpose ultimately is to be preachy about feminism, but that really doesn't bother me, because even so, her purpose as a character is to serve Poe's arc. I think we are supposed to view her in the way you describe and then to distrust her or think she is out of her depth so when we watch the movie we are agreeing with Poe and his decisions, until we realize he (we) were wrong. Its as if Rian wants the audience to learn the lesson with Poe, and maybe this is where he went wrong...but it "rhymes" with Empire in that way.
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veryfuller
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Ag Since 83 said:
Everything Finn does in TFA is out of loyalty to Rey (and sort of Poe). He and Han even get into a fight about it on Starkiller Base, how Finn is there for Rey, but Han says the galaxy is counting on us. At no point does he show any sense of belonging with the Resistance
Exactly right.
Finn is literally the key to the Resistance's win in TFA. He defects from the First Order and actively makes a choice to aid the Resistance, thus ensuring the defeat of his former employer. At that point, is he still acting in Rey's best interest? Absolutely. But going on that final mission with Han - and Han saying those words to Finn - should have sealed the deal in terms of Finn's allegiance/sense of belonging, not to mention his one-on-one fight Kylo Ren, who had just killed Han. At that point - to me - there was a 95% feeling that Finn had found his place. It sure as hell shouldn't have taken an entire other movie to make up that other 5%. It just felt like complete and utter filler to me.
veryfuller said:
People's reactions to Holdo are fascinating to me. I think her purpose ultimately is to be preachy about feminism, but that really doesn't bother me, because even so, her purpose as a character is to serve Poe's arc. I think we are supposed to view her in the way you describe and then to distrust her or think she is out of her depth so when we watch the movie we are agreeing with Poe and his decisions, until we realize he (we) were wrong. Its as if Rian wants the audience to learn the lesson with Poe, and maybe this is where he went wrong...but it "rhymes" with Empire in that way.
I get what you're saying, but I never thought Poe was right either. I thought they were both being obtuse, and that it was just a dumb situation to begin with to pin the entire B-story on.
Tolkien could do a sequel to the Hobbit, because at that point in time he hadn't done any world-building yet.
Middle Earth was a blank canvas.
Middle Earth at the end of LOTR is not a blank canvas.
Middle Earth was a blank canvas.
Middle Earth at the end of LOTR is not a blank canvas.
I'll try one last time.
I never said they didn't try to do new things with SW.
I said they did, but that it never feel like SW.
That's because, as I've said, you can't "flip the basic concept" with linear types of stories like SW.
Imagine this.
Write a SW story WITHOUT: lightsabers duels, people shooting at each other, the Force, or big bad guys.
Writers did that in the EU.
And it DIDN'T WORK and it DIDN'T make money, because it DIDN'T feel like SW.
To feel like SW, you NEED lightsaber duels, people shooting at each other, the Force, and big bad guys.
Overtime, Lucas and the pre-Disney SW executives realized this, and that's why all the major pre-Disney video games and stories mimic the OT.
And if you think Disney will be different, they won't. They will realize, just like Lucas & Co. did, that SW has to have those things in it to make money. Besides, would you want to even see a SW story WITHOUT lightsaber duels, people shooting at each other, the Force, or big bad guys? I'd wager your response is a resounding "NO". And that right there is another reason why SW is creatively bankrupt. The powers-that-be will always go after what the fanboys want in order to make the most amount of money.
You NEED all that OT stuff in there to make it feel like SW. And that's my problem with it.
It's just a rehash of the OT.
This is what I mean when I say I want these types of franchises to end.
They're played out. They are rigid, linear stories.
They can't do anything new or interesting with SW - they just can't, it's not there. I'm sorry.
You've wasted your life and your fandom.
I never said they didn't try to do new things with SW.
I said they did, but that it never feel like SW.
That's because, as I've said, you can't "flip the basic concept" with linear types of stories like SW.
Imagine this.
Write a SW story WITHOUT: lightsabers duels, people shooting at each other, the Force, or big bad guys.
Writers did that in the EU.
And it DIDN'T WORK and it DIDN'T make money, because it DIDN'T feel like SW.
To feel like SW, you NEED lightsaber duels, people shooting at each other, the Force, and big bad guys.
Overtime, Lucas and the pre-Disney SW executives realized this, and that's why all the major pre-Disney video games and stories mimic the OT.
- The Old Republic was a rehash of the OT.
- Battlefront was a rehash of OT aesthetics and characters.
- That's why so many major EU stories mimic the OT, hence my listing all those major EU stories in my previous post, like Thrawn, Yuuzhan Vong, Darth Krayt, etc.
And if you think Disney will be different, they won't. They will realize, just like Lucas & Co. did, that SW has to have those things in it to make money. Besides, would you want to even see a SW story WITHOUT lightsaber duels, people shooting at each other, the Force, or big bad guys? I'd wager your response is a resounding "NO". And that right there is another reason why SW is creatively bankrupt. The powers-that-be will always go after what the fanboys want in order to make the most amount of money.
You NEED all that OT stuff in there to make it feel like SW. And that's my problem with it.
It's just a rehash of the OT.
This is what I mean when I say I want these types of franchises to end.
They're played out. They are rigid, linear stories.
They can't do anything new or interesting with SW - they just can't, it's not there. I'm sorry.
You've wasted your life and your fandom.
The above is why I think George Lucas is a genius business man. He knows when to make his decisions. He knew that SW was "done". He saw the writing on the wall. For all the heat Lucas takes, he's a smart smart man who knows when to move his pieces on the chess board. He threw a grenade in Disney's lap.
Quote:
But my question is why troll the situation at all? Why not take the audience in an entirely new direction? Oh I guess 'cause there's nowhere to go with Star Wars. 'Cause it's boring. It's played out. And it sucks. Lucas is laughing all the way to the bank with his 4 billion dollar check.
- Star Wars: The Last Plinkett Review
Can you recap the point you're trying to make? That all Star Wars movies and series should stop being made?
I'm not sure why you keep putting all the EU novelists down. I said a lot of them produced stories that ended up not working, not all. Just more proof you didn't actually read what I said. As a writer yourself, I'm kinda disturbed you feel the need to bash fellow writers with such gusto.
The EU was around 36 years.
36.
Years.
There were tons of talented people who worked on it.
So here are serious creative people, who were part of a 36 year experiment, with more creative freedom than what Disney would ever give, and yet you're dismissing the results like it's nothing. That's idiotic.
If the attempts of a professional 36 year experiment are poor, that's more than likely indicative that the source material you are working with does not lend itself to expansion.
Meanwhile, take a series like Star Trek. With ST, you DON'T NEED phasers, people shooting at each other, spaceship combat, or big bad guys to make it work. ST is an example of a series with TRUE potential for expansion. Batman is also like this. Take the B-Man story The Long Halloween. TLH has barely any fighting or gadgets in that story. Yet it works.
Those types of series' lend themselves to expansion. You can plug literally anything in them, and it will work. That's why I call them "utilitarian stories". That's how flexible those types of series' are.
SW is not flexible like that.
Case-in-point:
Rian Johnson tried completely new things for movie SW.
Did people like it?
Nope!
Because it didn't feel like Star Wars.
People want the lightsaber action, they want the big bad guy, and they want people shooting each other, because those are the only things that make-up the SW feeling.
And as you can see, it's a very small group of things that make-up the SW feeling.
That's why, from a business and creative standpoint, that's all SW can do. To make money (to get people to see it), it has to be variations of those things. And to feel like SW from a creative standpoint, it has to be variations of those things.
So, why did people like Solo?
You may not have noticed it, but your brain did.
(In b4 "But Solo didn't do well!"
That's because people were mad at TLJ.
Because TLJ didn't feel like SW.
Do you think Disney will make that mistake again with TROS?)
The EU was around 36 years.
36.
Years.
There were tons of talented people who worked on it.
So here are serious creative people, who were part of a 36 year experiment, with more creative freedom than what Disney would ever give, and yet you're dismissing the results like it's nothing. That's idiotic.
If the attempts of a professional 36 year experiment are poor, that's more than likely indicative that the source material you are working with does not lend itself to expansion.
Meanwhile, take a series like Star Trek. With ST, you DON'T NEED phasers, people shooting at each other, spaceship combat, or big bad guys to make it work. ST is an example of a series with TRUE potential for expansion. Batman is also like this. Take the B-Man story The Long Halloween. TLH has barely any fighting or gadgets in that story. Yet it works.
Those types of series' lend themselves to expansion. You can plug literally anything in them, and it will work. That's why I call them "utilitarian stories". That's how flexible those types of series' are.
SW is not flexible like that.
Case-in-point:
Rian Johnson tried completely new things for movie SW.
- No lightsaber duels
- Very little shooting
- Main villain is killed early
- Kylo and Rey having a bond, potentially setting up a story where there is no fighting, just Rey and Kylo rebuilding the galaxy together
Did people like it?
Nope!
Because it didn't feel like Star Wars.
People want the lightsaber action, they want the big bad guy, and they want people shooting each other, because those are the only things that make-up the SW feeling.
And as you can see, it's a very small group of things that make-up the SW feeling.
That's why, from a business and creative standpoint, that's all SW can do. To make money (to get people to see it), it has to be variations of those things. And to feel like SW from a creative standpoint, it has to be variations of those things.
So, why did people like Solo?
- A final duel in a bad guy's lair
- People shooting each other
- Familiar OT aesthetics like stormtroopers, the Falcon, and Western motifs
- A story about a group of heroes who have to contend with an evil villain
You may not have noticed it, but your brain did.
(In b4 "But Solo didn't do well!"
That's because people were mad at TLJ.
Because TLJ didn't feel like SW.
Do you think Disney will make that mistake again with TROS?)
You say an expanded universe to the linear type of stories I've mentioned is possible.
You've obviously never given the matter any thought.
This is just one example, but can be applied to any of the stories I mentioned:
LOTR is about a group of heroes who fight an evil dark lord. Epic fighting and magic is necessary for that series to work.
Anyway you look at it, it would just be a rehash of LOTR.
This is what I mean when I say I want these types of franchises to end.
They're played out. They are rigid, linear stories.
They can't do anything new or interesting with LOTR - they just can't, it's not there. I'm sorry.
You've wasted your life and your fandom.
You've obviously never given the matter any thought.
This is just one example, but can be applied to any of the stories I mentioned:
LOTR is about a group of heroes who fight an evil dark lord. Epic fighting and magic is necessary for that series to work.
- So who do the heroes fight?
- At the end of the series, the dark lord has been utterly defeated.
- Magic has been fading in Middle Earth for centuries, and at the end of LOTR it is almost completely gone. So no new magical threat can arise.
- All the Elves and Wizards are dead or have left Middle Earth.
- So you dismiss all that and say "Well, we'll just bend the rules and have a new dark lord or a new big threat happen."
- Well guess what, you just made a rehash of LOTR.
- If you're okay with rehashes - fine. But that means you're a fanboy.
- But let's say you accept there can't be a new big villain.
- So you say "Well, the Hobbit wasn't really about fighting and it was a small scale story. So we'll bend the rules about magic not being around and do something small like that."
- Well guess what, you just made a rehash of the Hobbit.
- If you're okay with rehashes - fine. But that means you're a fanboy.
- But let's say you accept there can't be any magic.
- So you say "Well, we'll just have it be a generic medieval-type adventure."
- Gee, that sounds really boring compared to LOTR. Who wants to watch a small scale Middle Earth story like that with no epic fighting or magic after the epic adventure that was LOTR?
- If you're okay with revisiting Middle Earth like that - fine. But that means you're a fanboy.
- Plus, even if you didn't have epic fighting or magic, who wants to watch a Middle Earth story with no epic fighting or magic? Even the new Hobbit movies had to cram the epic fighting and magic in there because the source material barely had any in there.
- So the conclusion is that there isn't a market for small scale LOTR stories with no epic fighting or magic.
Anyway you look at it, it would just be a rehash of LOTR.
This is what I mean when I say I want these types of franchises to end.
They're played out. They are rigid, linear stories.
They can't do anything new or interesting with LOTR - they just can't, it's not there. I'm sorry.
You've wasted your life and your fandom.
I feel I have addressed all misunderstandings about my opinion. This will be my last post on the subject.
I guess all fantasy is the same because it has swords and battles. It's time to shut the genre down, guys.
TCTTS said:veryfuller said:
People's reactions to Holdo are fascinating to me. I think her purpose ultimately is to be preachy about feminism, but that really doesn't bother me, because even so, her purpose as a character is to serve Poe's arc. I think we are supposed to view her in the way you describe and then to distrust her or think she is out of her depth so when we watch the movie we are agreeing with Poe and his decisions, until we realize he (we) were wrong. Its as if Rian wants the audience to learn the lesson with Poe, and maybe this is where he went wrong...but it "rhymes" with Empire in that way.
I get what you're saying, but I never thought Poe was right either. I thought they were both being obtuse, and that it was just a dumb situation to begin with to pin the entire B-story on.
The way she went was perfect though. By sacrificing herself on a ship that has to have an autopilot function, she completely opened up plot holes in every single movie with a Death Star. It was the perfect ending for an astronomically (budum tish) horrible character.
CJS4715 said:
I'm very interested how they close out Kylo's arc. He has the chance to be the most interesting character in the films, imo.
He is by far the most interesting character right now. Rey is nothing. Finn was good in TFA, but they destroyed him in TLJ.
Could've made Rey interesting by exploring her affinity for the dark side, but Rian couldn't pull it off.
And Render has a point, you take out the force, blasters and light sabers and you don't really have a star wars movie anymore. You just have another space movie in a galaxy far, far away.
Which again highlights the point of how incredibly stupid Rian Johnson is. You have the most iconic character in sci-fi who is the best ever to use the most iconic weapon in sci-fi, and you're so damn clever you decide that in a two hour movie you're not going to give him one single flipping light saber duel.
And then you kill him off, so a more competent director can't make up for your idiotic mistakes.
Which again highlights the point of how incredibly stupid Rian Johnson is. You have the most iconic character in sci-fi who is the best ever to use the most iconic weapon in sci-fi, and you're so damn clever you decide that in a two hour movie you're not going to give him one single flipping light saber duel.
And then you kill him off, so a more competent director can't make up for your idiotic mistakes.
Sorry, the last few pages defending TLJ has got me all lathered up again.
I was talking about LOTR specifically because I had mentioned it earlier as an example of a limited series. Just because LOTR is fantasy, does not mean I am not talking about all of fantasy.Brian Earl Spilner said:
I guess all fantasy is the same because it has swords and battles. It's time to shut the genre down, guys.
But to your wider point - sure, why not? They probably should shut it down. 99% of fantasy and sci-fi stories are derivative.
The words "originality" and "creativity" mean something.
Repackaging old tropes and plot devices in new costumes is not original or creative.
Don't forget that all those stories have bad guys. Can you believe they're so lazy as to always have a bad guy?Brian Earl Spilner said:
I guess all fantasy is the same because it has swords and battles. It's time to shut the genre down, guys.
Render said:I was talking about LOTR specifically because I had mentioned it earlier as an example of a limited series. Just because LOTR is fantasy, does not mean I am not talking about all of fantasy.Brian Earl Spilner said:
I guess all fantasy is the same because it has swords and battles. It's time to shut the genre down, guys.
But to your wider point - sure, why not? They probably should shut it down. 99% of fantasy and sci-fi stories are derivative.
The words "originality" and "creativity" mean something.
Repackaging old tropes and plot devices in new costumes is not original or creative.
Dude, all stories have been told. It's all pretty much just repackaging.
Why are we even alive? Everyone before us already had two arms, two legs, a torso, and a head. We bring nothing new.
Let's just kill ourselves.
Mass suicide?
Let's just kill ourselves.
Mass suicide?
Render, I don't even know which of your twelve replies to reply to, so I'll just say this - you're reaching aTmAg levels of willfully ignoring what the person you're arguing against is saying. It's kind of staggering, actually.
For the 400th time, I NEVER said a Star Wars movie should go without lightsabers, blasters, a big villain, etc. We even talked about this, you acknowledged (inadvertently) misrepresenting what I was saying, yet now you're back to ranting again about how a Star Wars movie without those things wouldn't work. Literally NO ONE is making the argument that it would or should. Who are you even talking to?
Secondly, your math-like assessment of the LOTR franchise is full of so many holes and false absolutes that I don't even know where to start. That, and this is a STAR WARS thread and the comparison isn't even remotely 1:1. Also, ending with warnings of "wasting your life" or whatever you're going on about don't help either. It's like you've invented a sparring partner in your head that no one else in this thread can see.
All I'm saying is, it's not that hard to start a new trilogy of Star Wars movies with a new big-bad, as long as we care about the characters we're supposed to be rooting for. By the end of Episode IX, Snoke, Palpatine, and potentially even Kylo will all be dead. A new evil will fill the void in another part of the galaxy and there's no reason we can't do this all again - with lightsabers and blasters and the whole nine yards - as long certain aspects feel fresh and original enough. There are myriad character types and plot-tweaks that we haven't yet seen in the SW universe that can absolutely gel with everything that makes Star Wars feel like Star Wars. That's not even a debate, and you're doing a terrible job of trying to prove otherwise by talking in circles and starting arguments that no one is having.
For the 400th time, I NEVER said a Star Wars movie should go without lightsabers, blasters, a big villain, etc. We even talked about this, you acknowledged (inadvertently) misrepresenting what I was saying, yet now you're back to ranting again about how a Star Wars movie without those things wouldn't work. Literally NO ONE is making the argument that it would or should. Who are you even talking to?
Secondly, your math-like assessment of the LOTR franchise is full of so many holes and false absolutes that I don't even know where to start. That, and this is a STAR WARS thread and the comparison isn't even remotely 1:1. Also, ending with warnings of "wasting your life" or whatever you're going on about don't help either. It's like you've invented a sparring partner in your head that no one else in this thread can see.
All I'm saying is, it's not that hard to start a new trilogy of Star Wars movies with a new big-bad, as long as we care about the characters we're supposed to be rooting for. By the end of Episode IX, Snoke, Palpatine, and potentially even Kylo will all be dead. A new evil will fill the void in another part of the galaxy and there's no reason we can't do this all again - with lightsabers and blasters and the whole nine yards - as long certain aspects feel fresh and original enough. There are myriad character types and plot-tweaks that we haven't yet seen in the SW universe that can absolutely gel with everything that makes Star Wars feel like Star Wars. That's not even a debate, and you're doing a terrible job of trying to prove otherwise by talking in circles and starting arguments that no one is having.
After thinking about TLJ for a while, I think there was a poster who brought up the main problem I actually had with the movie: that Finn's story felt like an inbetween story, something that should have taken place after TFA and before TLJ. You have Poe's storyline showing the fact that the Resistance is basically wiped out, Rey continuing her training (however short) and getting to know Kylo a little better, even if they don't explain any backstory. But Finn's storyline contributed absolutely nothing to the plot. Imagine if Finn's plot led him to discovering something that had actually helped the Resistance escape? Then you get rid of the Rey being able to lift a mountain on day 2 of her training silliness, and she the movie ends with Luke's or Yoda's force ghost popping up next to her. Her storyline ends with the implication that she is still is pretty weak in the force compared to the big daddies, but she is going to be put in a bunch of training with a Jedi master until the next movie.
His storyline seemed more like a standalone tv episode then a b-plot in a movie.
His storyline seemed more like a standalone tv episode then a b-plot in a movie.
I literally made this exact same point a couple hours ago, on the previous page.
TCTTS said:
I literally made this exact same point a couple hours ago, on the previous page.
Well ****, that's a good point.
Great minds...
veryfuller said:
People's reactions to Holdo are fascinating to me. I think her purpose ultimately is to be preachy about feminism, but that really doesn't bother me, because even so, her purpose as a character is to serve Poe's arc. I think we are supposed to view her in the way you describe and then to distrust her or think she is out of her depth so when we watch the movie we are agreeing with Poe and his decisions, until we realize he (we) were wrong. Its as if Rian wants the audience to learn the lesson with Poe, and maybe this is where he went wrong...but it "rhymes" with Empire in that way.
I'm hesitant to chime in on TLJ too much because I never finished watching it. Canto Bight broke me and I shut it off and haven't gone back to finish it (I have read spoilers, though, so I'm familiar with the plot). I do think, though, I can speak intelligently to my distaste for the Holdo character. I'm not a huge fan of Poe's arc in TLJ (it seemed kind of out of left field based on his character in TFA), but I understand it, and I understand the need for someone to take him down a peg in service to that arc.
However, I don't think Holdo was the right character to act as his foil, because she hadn't earned it. We're told she's a huge badass, but we don't really see her do anything to earn that reputation until the Holdo Maneuver towards the end of the movie. Poe, on the other hand, we know pretty well - he's one of the four primary characters of the new series, and we saw him do some impressive stuff in TFA - escaping the First order with Finn, the rescue at Maz Kanata's palace at Takodana, and the assault on Starkiller Base. Heck, Leia trusted him enough to send him on a mission to meet with Lor San Tekka.
To properly cut Poe down to size, you either need a hyper-competent antagonist that counters him at every turn (think a Grand Moff Tarkin or a Thrawn) or someone that we already have a connection to or can otherwise respect despite belittling or thwarting one of the main characters. We don't really have any hyper-competent antagonists (Snoke and Kylo have their own thing going with Rey, and Hux has been relegated to comic relief), but Leia would've been perfect for the job - nobody can question her bona fides as a major force (no pun intended) in the galaxy. We even see the beginnings of that before she gets spaced and turns into Mary Popsicle. You could also easily put Wedge Antilles or Admiral Ackbar in that role - though not as impressive as Leia, we recognize the characters and have history with them.
I'll also say that I don't like the way that Laura Dern played the character (though that may be down to directing). The condescending way she treated him would've been appropriate for a true antagonist (like a Thrawn or a Tarkin), but for an ostensible ally, it hit a very wrong note for me. She didn't act like a superior officer dressing down a subordinate; to TCTTS's point, she acted like one of those busybody moms talking down to a barista who forgot the caramel for her macchiato.
So. Well. Said.
My thoughts exactly
And I agree 100% - I've never understood why Leia/Holdo wasn't just... Leia. The only thing I can think is that Johnson & co didn't have faith in Fischer being able to carry that many scenes, but that doesn't really track, as she's still in it plenty. Otherwise, it would have made so much sense to not sideline Leia like that - then dial down the obtuse preachiness of the dynamic a bit - and I would have been totally fine with that entire plot line. This would have also saved us from Space-Leia, and then SHE could have been the one to go out with a bang, which would have been such a great, sacrificial ending for that character.
My thoughts exactly
And I agree 100% - I've never understood why Leia/Holdo wasn't just... Leia. The only thing I can think is that Johnson & co didn't have faith in Fischer being able to carry that many scenes, but that doesn't really track, as she's still in it plenty. Otherwise, it would have made so much sense to not sideline Leia like that - then dial down the obtuse preachiness of the dynamic a bit - and I would have been totally fine with that entire plot line. This would have also saved us from Space-Leia, and then SHE could have been the one to go out with a bang, which would have been such a great, sacrificial ending for that character.
See, this is where all us Man Babies get so pissed off at Rian Johnson. Because there is no good excuse for Holdo other than he wanted to lecture everyone about toxic masculinity.
The director made really poor story telling decisions because he put the message before the story. If it was any other movie people would just say, that movie sucks and move on. But when someone sabotages a beloved franchise because they want to show everyone how woke they are, it's going to trigger a lot of us.
The director made really poor story telling decisions because he put the message before the story. If it was any other movie people would just say, that movie sucks and move on. But when someone sabotages a beloved franchise because they want to show everyone how woke they are, it's going to trigger a lot of us.
I mainly thought of that as an example of trying to cram in too many characters instead of allowing the camera to spend a little more time with figures/stories we might actually care about. Jamming the stage and jumping around from setting to setting strikes me as a bit of a defensive measure to avoid getting criticized for serious dialogue or character development. "Yes, we really should talk a little more about - HEY! Look everyone! Casino rampage!"
And yes, there's also the clumsy sitcom element of "Poe is cocky and stupid but the wise mom had it all figured out. But of course she still loves the big oaf."
I still would like to see Rian Johnson's next movie, even if it's still in the Star Wars universe, but he made some massive errors in judgement regarding TLJ.
Kennedy deserves a lot of the heat as well, JJ should have been directing all 3 of the movies, (or Rian) so it could be one coherent plot throughout. Perhaps it's not being fair to her to compare here against Feig with Marvel, but she is.
Kennedy deserves a lot of the heat as well, JJ should have been directing all 3 of the movies, (or Rian) so it could be one coherent plot throughout. Perhaps it's not being fair to her to compare here against Feig with Marvel, but she is.
Brian Earl Spilner said:
$80k....lol
"The only reason these movies were hated so much is because people didn't like them!"
What magnificent insight!
What magnificent insight!
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