Star Wars Discussion Thread

3,558,847 Views | 33760 Replies | Last: 4 days ago by bluefire579
TCTTS
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JFC. They somehow keep digging a deeper and deeper hole. Really, they had to actively *try* to be this dumb/inconsistent. No exaggeration, I legitimately believe that there are multiple posters in this very thread who could run Lucasfilm creative/the story group better than these clowns...


https://screenrant.com/star-wars-rise-skywalker-rey-father-palpatine-clone/
AliasMan02
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Came here to post this. The retconning that "had" to be done in the novelization to fill all the holes and gaps in the movie is crazy.

I say "had" because it actually didn't need addressing. Just let that stuff go. Although I guess it's fitting that they are so reactionary to online criticism since the entirety of TROS was exact that.
TCTTS
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I don't even completely understand this. Didn't we SEE Rey's father/Palpatine's son in that flashback? If not, who was that?
AliasMan02
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TCTTS said:

I don't even completely understand this. Didn't we SEE Rey's father/Palpatine's son in that flashback? If not, who was that?


I'm speculating here, but I'm pretty sure I have this right:

This is in response to fans doing the math on how old Palps and Rey are, and the almost immediate recognition that for the timeline to make sense, Palps had to conceive his son after he got all scarred and gross. There were a lot of "OMG the Emperor ****S" social media posts and memes.

What they're now saying is that it wasn't like his BIOLOGICAL son, but a rogue clone of Palpatine. This makes the timing of the lineage unimportant and means that maybe the Emperor didn't, in fact, ****.
TCTTS
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I guess that technically "makes sense," but holy crap does it reek of desperation in terms of trying to make it all track.
Ag Since 83
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At this point I just think it's hilarious they think any of this matters
redline248
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There is just no way to sugar coat it. Disney ****ed up with the sequel trilogy.
YouBet
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redline248 said:

There is just no way to sugar coat it. Disney ****ed up with the sequel trilogy.


What sequel trilogy?
dromo07
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I'm ok with them restating and doing this again
Cinco Ranch Aggie
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YouBet said:

redline248 said:

There is just no way to sugar coat it. Disney ****ed up with the sequel trilogy.


What sequel trilogy?
Just guessing here, but the one you are choosing to ignore as many choose to ignore the prequel trilogy, the fourth Indiana Jones movie, and the third Godfather.

SpreadsheetAg
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TCTTS said:

JFC. They somehow keep digging a deeper and deeper hole. Really, they had to actively *try* to be this dumb/inconsistent. No exaggeration, I legitimately believe that there are multiple posters in this very thread who could run Lucasfilm creative/the story group better than these clowns...


https://screenrant.com/star-wars-rise-skywalker-rey-father-palpatine-clone/


JFC is right. It was better the first time. They're tinkering more than George with his remastered DVDs
Brian Earl Spilner
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Are you KIDDING me? We SEE a flashback, and it's clearly a random actor. This is so ****ing stupid.

Brian Earl Spilner
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This just goes to show how ****ing lazy they were when writing this movie. They so badly wanted to throw Palpatine in there, that they threw their hands up and said "**** it! Let someone else figure this out."

Just like Maz somehow having Luke's lightsaber. Just like Kylo somehow having Vader's helmet.

I honestly don't know who is to blame, but I think by default, it has to fall equally on JJ and Kathleen Kennedy. They had a pretty solid script, then Carrie Fisher died, then they had to essentially pick up the pieces and start over.

But to throw out some of the great parts of that script, to give us THIS?

I'm getting some GoT S8 vibes about this, where they just wanted to wrap this thing up as quick as possible. Starting to feel like most of us in this thread cared more than JJ Abrams did.
Urban Ag
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I tend to think the major F up here was not JJ/KK but RJ/KK.

JJ set the table in TFA. Rey, Lor, the Falcon, all on Jakku. Maz with the sabre. The sabre's connection to Rey and Obi Wan a prominent voice in the visions it gave her. Kylo and Snoke having some idea who she was. Han seemingly connecting with Rey so easily. Rey returning the sabre to Luke. It all seemed so easy and so obvious, almost to a fault.

Then, it seems at least, RJ was given complete creative control over TLJ. Hammill's vocal opposition was known before the film was even released. I don't think anyone can really deny the following:
  • RJ didn't advance the storyline at all with the exception of an explanation of what happened between Luke and Ben. Even then, it's two different stories. He completely dumped everything JJ set up in TLJ in the trash heap. Everything.
  • RJ's shot at an epic SW film was wasted on cultural, social, and political grandstanding. Incredibly self gratuitous. Doing this seemed to be the bigger point of the TLJ than making a coherent film that continues the story that JJ set in motion

So by the end of TLJ we're handed uninteresting characters no further advanced then they were at the end of the previous film, a host of nothingburger characters that added nothing but meaningless screen time, and a story that can literally go in any direction at this point because nothing was bridged between VII and VIII. And frankly, few really care at this point.

A lot of people describe TFA as "fun, felt like SW, safe, the movie the franchise needed, a reboot but still good, etc". Lots of words to basically say the same thing. It was good but not great. I expected more. Etc. Even if that formula had been carried on to the next two films in predictable fashion, it still would have been better than disaster Disney delivered. It would have been better if Rey had been Luke's kid. It would have made so much more sense for Luke to stash her on Jakku with Lor close by looking over. That Luke parked the Falcon on Jakku and Han was in on it. That Han and Leia knew it was their niece but couldn't say that immediately because of the risk associated. An "I am your father" reveal to Rey in the TLJ would have been predictable but the world would have loved it. No massive Sith fleet from Sith planet lead by Palpatine's stupid clone (which by the way, clone's wouldn't have scars lol).

Had they just steadfastly continued the story JJ set in motion, even if would have required predictable plots and loads of nostalgia fan servicing, it would have still been 10x better than product they put out. I just can't hang this on JJ and I am not much of a JJ fan to be honest.
Ulrich
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

This just goes to show how ****ing lazy they were when writing this movie. They so badly wanted to throw Palpatine in there, that they threw their hands up and said "**** it! Let someone else figure this out."

Just like Maz somehow having Luke's lightsaber. Just like Kylo somehow having Vader's helmet.

I honestly don't know who is to blame, but I think by default, it has to fall equally on JJ and Kathleen Kennedy. They had a pretty solid script, then Carrie Fisher died, then they had to essentially pick up the pieces and start over.

But to throw out some of the great parts of that script, to give us THIS?

I'm getting some GoT S8 vibes about this, where they just wanted to wrap this thing up as quick as possible. Starting to feel like most of us in this thread cared more than JJ Abrams did.

1. The Palpatine thing seems like a cheat code to avoid having to come up with a satisfying explanation for Rey's power and control. Even Anakin only had 1-2 freakish abilities and Luke was a whiny farmboy, they both needed lots of time to become polished warriors.

2. I don't feel any need for an explanation for Kylo having Vader's helmet. It makes sense that he would have tracked it down and he has the resources.

3. Luke's lightsaber, on the other hand... Maz was deeply rooted in her physical location and had no obvious connection to Luke, while the lightsaber was a totem of immense importance to Rey's journey (for three seconds). That needed a little more explanation. But Disney, this does not mean that we need a hundred million dollar movie to explain it. Note that Vader's helmet was a dead object and only key to where Kylo started, it didn't seem to be guiding Kylo and giving him visions, almost acting with intention, the way Luke's lightsaber did.

4. I think Abrams cared, I think he tried really hard to make a worthy film. Unfortunately, his solution was an anarchical rave, just lights and movement piled on noise and fury, cut every 3.7 seconds or there wouldn't be time to hint at all the subplots (without bringing any of them home).

5. There are no longer any rules in Star Wars. Abrams' conception of the Force is exactly like Finn's when he and Han land on starkiller: just start moving and them somehow the Force will fill in the gaps.

6. There were things, scenes, in TROS that I like. I'll rewatch this movie.

7. Every time Disney tries to improve the movie with post hoc exposition, they acknowledge their failings (and make it worse). Let it go. You released your creation into the world, it's too late, it is what it is.

8. I don't know enough about the biz to guess how it got to this point. Maybe they combined directors who don't really understand the craft of fantasy worldbuilding with workshopped corporate story beats, too-overt social commentary, and a leader who was Peter Principled into a role that's too much for her. But clearly i would be making wild, unfair speculations. But that's what happened though.
PDWT_12
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Urban Ag said:

So by the end of TLJ we're handed uninteresting characters no further advanced then they were at the end of the previous film, a host of nothingburger characters that added nothing but meaningless screen time, and a story that can literally go in any direction at this point because nothing was bridged between VII and VIII. And frankly, few really care at this point.
I'm not going to claim that TLJ was some amazing piece of cinema and everyone who doesn't like it is dumb, but I disagree with this take. You can make that argument for Rose I guess, but I was interested in a lot of the characters and their storylines following TLJ.

Finn is no longer in it for himself and for Rey, he believes in a greater cause and he is ready to make sacrifices for it. The biggest disappointment for me in reading Trevorrow's script is we never got to see his vision of Finn recruiting and converting current First Order soldiers. That sounded incredible.

Poe is ready to take on more leadership, and he does at the end of TROS and watching him struggle with the idea of being in command was one of the things I liked about the movie.

Rey is a nobody, and that's ok. She is ready to let the past die, because it is no longer important to her. What matters now is her future as a key figure in the Resistance. I won't even get into the issue I have with reversing this storyline and making her a Palp.

Kylo now has command of the First Order, and Hux doesn't trust him. This could have been an interesting back and forth, particularly with the spy plot, but instead we immediately get introduced to a character from the previous movies who "ranks" above Kylo, forcing him back into an apprentice type role, recalling the past we were supposed to let die in the previous film, and the spy plot and Hux's demise get like 5 minutes of screen time and a theme park ride.

My point is that there was plenty to work with, that there were actually interesting storylines to play with after TLJ. It was a story that can go in any direction, because that's what second movies in a trilogy do. Doesn't change the fact that the whole trilogy is a mess, and there is plenty of blame to go around on that (including Rian).
Brian Earl Spilner
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I absolutely agree that there is a huge disconnect between TFA and TLJ, so Rian could shoulder some of the blame. But the Duel of the Fates script made me realize that a great story could've still been told, even after TLJ.

So I guess if I had to assign blame, I'd go 50% Kathleen, 40% JJ, 10% Rian.

It feels like Kathleen and JJ WAY over-corrected after TLJ, to the point that they just threw **** in there and expected fans to like it. (Bringing back Palpatine, making Rey his granddaughter, bringing back Lando, etc.)

And then also throwing out all the interesting stuff from DOTF that I guess JJ didn't feel a particular connection to, due to his infamous aversion to the prequels.

And yeah, I really think Finn got the worst of it. His character could've been so much more. Alas.

I can already feel myself becoming one of those people who just made all discussions a bummer after TLJ, so I will try to stop coming in here just to complain. What's done is done.
PDWT_12
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

I can already feel myself becoming one of those people who just made all discussions a bummer after TLJ, so I will try to stop coming in here just to complain. What's done is done.
fig96
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

I absolutely agree that there is a huge disconnect between TFA and TLJ, so Rian could shoulder some of the blame. But the Duel of the Fates script made me realize that a great story could've still been told, even after TLJ.

So I guess if I had to assign blame, I'd go 50% Kathleen, 40% JJ, 10% Rian.

It feels like Kathleen and JJ WAY over-corrected after TLJ, to the point that they just threw **** in there and expected fans to like it. (Bringing back Palpatine, making Rey his granddaughter, bringing back Lando, etc.)

And then also throwing out all the interesting stuff from DOTF that I guess JJ didn't feel a particular connection to, due to his infamous aversion to the prequels.

And yeah, I really think Finn got the worst of it. His character could've been so much more. Alas.

I can already feel myself becoming one of those people who just made all discussions a bummer after TLJ, so I will try to stop coming in here just to complain. What's done is done.

Very much agree on the bold.

You can take issue with what Johnson did, some fair and some not as fair IMO. But I place more blame with Kennedy and others (JJ?) for both walking all that back as well as not having at least a loose story arc for him to hit to end TLJ in a way that logically led into what they wanted to do in Ep 9.

Granted this may have changed somewhat when Trevorrow exited, but to not have some kind of a plan for the most anticipated trilogy in movie history is just nuts.
MuckRaker96
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TCTTS said:

JFC. They somehow keep digging a deeper and deeper hole. Really, they had to actively *try* to be this dumb/inconsistent. No exaggeration, I legitimately believe that there are multiple posters in this very thread who could run Lucasfilm creative/the story group better than these clowns...


https://screenrant.com/star-wars-rise-skywalker-rey-father-palpatine-clone/
Clearly they've been reading and copying my posts from the other thread.


MuckRaker96
5:47p, 12/25/19


My theory is that the son is a clone from kamino who showed no force ability so palpatine had him dumped but assigned a long term watcher in this ochi character in case he ever warranted interest. When rey was a child something happened that suggested she was force sensitive, he reported back to palpatine and the order to retrieve her was given.
TCTTS
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Beat40
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TCTTS said:


DEBRAAHHH (naisly voice)
SpreadsheetAg
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Holy hell
TCTTS
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I just don't see how there's not a massive special edition release of TROS - basically, a newer/much longer cut of the movie - within the next year or so. Based on various reports, there's SO MUCH unused footage, some of it so incredibly crucial to the plot...


https://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-eye-of-webbish-bog-scene-was-indeed-filmed-but-isnt-on-the-blu-ray-a173647
MuckRaker96
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Good morning from Mobile, AL. We are 48 hours away from Rise of the Resistance
Brian Earl Spilner
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Chipotlemonger
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Disney: hold on let's buy Star Wars!

Fans: What about all the other material that exists from over the years?

Disney: Oh, we're retconning that... After we release new movies we're going to use twitter and articles to further the stories for y'all!
redline248
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Random morning thought as I get my son ready for school:

Why were the computers only capable of targeting the Death Star exhaust port and not capable of auto releasing the payload?
Cinco Ranch Aggie
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redline248 said:

Random morning thought as I get my son ready for school:

Why were the computers only capable of targeting the Death Star exhaust port and not capable of auto releasing the payload?
There's a lot going on inside your dome this morning, huh?

As for the actual question, probably because Lucas wasn't terribly familiar with what computers can actually do given the time that he wrote the original Star Wars screenplay. Just spit-balling here.
double aught
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redline248 said:

Random morning thought as I get my son ready for school:

Why were the computers only capable of targeting the Death Star exhaust port and not capable of auto releasing the payload?
They couldn't do either.
TXAG 05
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double aught said:

redline248 said:

Random morning thought as I get my son ready for school:

Why were the computers only capable of targeting the Death Star exhaust port and not capable of auto releasing the payload?
They couldn't do either.


This. The computer missed at point blank range.
I Have Spoken
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Cstrickland05 said:

double aught said:

redline248 said:

Random morning thought as I get my son ready for school:

Why were the computers only capable of targeting the Death Star exhaust port and not capable of auto releasing the payload?
They couldn't do either.


This. The computer missed at point blank range.


Programmed to have Stormtrooper-level accuracy.
redline248
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Cstrickland05 said:

double aught said:

redline248 said:

Random morning thought as I get my son ready for school:

Why were the computers only capable of targeting the Death Star exhaust port and not capable of auto releasing the payload?
They couldn't do either.


This. The computer missed at point blank range.


Computer wasn't accounting for human response delay
SpreadsheetAg
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I feel like they're getting ready to roll out a new line of Star Wars trivia board games, and they are tired of all the fanboys winning everything. So if they flood the interwebs with new alternative facts, they will have a chance.
Brian Earl Spilner
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MuckRaker96 said:

Good morning from Mobile, AL. We are 48 hours away from Rise of the Resistance
Look forward to hearing your thoughts on RotR.
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