Star Wars Discussion Thread

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Zombie Jon Snow
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I never had a problem with it - in fact it was both foretold (Luke said "what did you think was going to happen....") and foreshadowed (Snoke using it to connect Rey and Kylo). And it was a huge sacrifice on his part. I think the part with his death (disappearance) could have been handled better. It was beautiful but not explained really - just a little more exposition maybe Obi Wan telling him to let go or something would have been better.

My only real problems with TLJ were Rose/Finn arc and Leia floating.

Ulrich
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I got tired of writing "I think", and "IMO" over and over so this post is all in simple declarative but there are lots of different personal opinions in here. Also I didn't end the post with the conclusion I thought I would. There's a twist!

It works better if it was told in a more direct fashion. Playing it for a double twist caused too much confusion.

Thinking of it as a viewer in real time, first he's risking everything, then it turns out he wasn't at risk at all, then he dies anyway. You have the nagging feeling that something is off because of the beard and hair. The Force projections haven't really been explained, those are still pretty mysterious and as far as we know might be a trick the universe is playing on Kylo and Rey, so the new power isn't really established that well. [Edit: I may have forgotten that it was explained and therefore be overselling this point. It ends up being less important anyway]

RJ wanted to have this big moment where everything falls into place: a twist that shocks you, a consequence that reverberates through the whole movie to be appreciated upon rewatching, a redemption and peaceful end for a character who is nearly lost, all while saving the remnant of the Resistance and leaving a hero moment for Rey. It was an ambitious effort that might have been doomed from the start, and I don't think it landed. Again partly because Luke's part began in medias res without sufficient information, and partly because the audience had already had half a dozen twists thrown at them.

This is the ultimate moment where RJ's intricate plotting works against him: it looked really clever on paper weeks or months later, but it didn't work in real time for a lot of people who never went on to figure it out. The superfans who you would think appreciate the nuances of subtext like that, and who usually spend months or years finding new intricacies that may not have actually existed, seemed to dislike the movie most.

At first i was going to say that movies should have a straightforward story with complexities layered on top and the lack of that took the narrative momentum out, but technically TLJ had a basic structure in place. The Resistance screws up a couple times, stalls for a few days, bungles two escape plans, then the reluctant hero bails them out. It's not very compelling and the main character doesn't really participate, but it is there.

So in the end, maybe it comes down to a loss of goodwill that made audiences unwilling to piece together what RJ thought was the piece de resistance. Tired of headfakes and winks, bored with pointless sidequests, mildly irritated with clumsy sermonizing and cringy sloganeering, upset that the eager optimist of our youth is defeated and reluctant.
Belton Ag
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I actually enjoyed this part of TLJ and this sacrifice Luke made at the end. What I didn't like was how Luke was handled up to that point, and I think Johnson really disrespected the character by turning him into a disallusioned hermit that refused to even budge after he found out what happened to Han.
AliasMan02
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TCTTS said:

Thoughts?

Personally, despite the movie's many other problems, I've actually come to like this aspect, and I can't argue with this...




The way Luke handled the fight with the FO was unquestionably correct and proper for all the reasons that others have said, but for another as well.

If Luke had shown up and wrecked shop, gone all Force Unleashed on the First Order, that makes everything bad that has happened up to this point HIS FAULT. If he could swipe aside the gorilla walkers and slap down the command shuttle or whatever, then he could have easily prevented the destruction of Hosnian Prime, Han's death, or the rise of the First Order to begin with.

In that confrontation, you had to go epic or go another way, and really there was only one path available. Johnson did a masterful job of setting it all up throughout the film. I thought Luke's end was perfect, finally NOT rushing into a confrontation, NOT giving Kylo something else to regret, and still managing to save both the Resistance and the Order.
FL_Ag1998
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Nothing Johnson did with that film was masterful.
AliasMan02
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FL_Ag1998 said:

Nothing Johnson did with that film was masterful.


Objectively untrue. This is the problem with trying to have this discussion. You don't have to like it, which is a matter of opinion, but the way the whole Rey/Kylo/Luke storyline built to the reveal that Luke on Crait was an apparition was expertly achieved.

It was built, brick by brick, scene by scene, through the Kylo/Rey interaction. There were clues everywhere that he was an apparition from the moment he was seen in the base, but none so big that they spoiled the reveal.

Just one example, but it was great.
AliasMan02
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Almost done with Most Wanted, the Han/Qi'ra tie-in novel and it's really good. One of the better written new novels. Not very long so I'd recommend picking it up. The audio book is very well-performed.
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A plan so crazy it just might work...


TCTTS
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VERY well said overall.

And if there's anything I still have problem with in the whole scenario, it's definitely this, which hits the nail on the head...

Quote:

Thinking of it as a viewer in real time, first he's risking everything, then it turns out he wasn't at risk at all, then he dies anyway.
Saul Goodman
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I loved what RJ did with Luke. The best part of the movie, IMO. Very well crafted and his motivations make sense to me and added great depth this iconic character. I really do like TFA, JJ did a great job setting up new characters, but it was a pretty simple story overall.

Rose/Finn storyline is obviously a misfire, and space Leia was a bit too out there for my taste. But Luke and Kylo were expertly handled, and it was a beautifully shot film with some bad-a action sequences and cool design (Crait). The humor worked for me as well.

For those reasons, I'm a big fan of TLJ.
YouBet
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Quote:

"[The next three Star Wars films] were going to get into a microbioticworld. But there's this world of creatures that operate differently than we do. I call them the Whills. And the Whills are the ones who actually control the universe. They feed off the Force."


Wat?
AliasMan02
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Belton Ag said:

I actually enjoyed this part of TLJ and this sacrifice Luke made at the end. What I didn't like was how Luke was handled up to that point, and I think Johnson really disrespected the character by turning him into a disallusioned hermit that refused to even budge after he found out what happened to Han.


I understand this perspective, but I think it's the result of projecting a heroic image on Luke that is generated from our childhood. I think an objective characterization bears out RJ's story.

Gonna address some general things that are not necessarily your particular point.

There's a common thread that Luke wouldn't have that flash where he considers killing Ben. But really that's just the sort of thing that plagued Luke. He always, at every turn, teetered on the edge. Even pushed over slightly into the darkness.

And it's not like he didn't have a reason to fear the resurgent Dark Side in his nephew. Everything he had learned about the history of the Order said this would happen. All of HIS masters had stood watch over the rise of the Sith. He even explains this.

Another common thread is that Luke would never have left the galaxy and gone into exile. But, Luke's conclusion that the Jedi need to end is completely rational and supported by his explanation in the film. It makes perfect sense for him to be disillusioned given everything that he learned about his father, and the Order, and then what happened to his own students. And if he decides that the Jedi must end, it makes perfect sense that he destroy his ship and cut himself off from the Force so as not to be drawn back into the galactic conflict.

Ultimately, like the above tweet says, Luke's victory was complete. For the first time in his life he doesn't do the impulsive thing. He rises above the petty and destructive fight between practitioners of light and dark and wins the greater moral and philosophical victory. And again, he even explains this clearly to Kylo.

Luke's story was told just right, and really almost the only way it could be when really digging into the character. Having Luke be the flawless beacon of light would have not only been boring, but counter to the character we've seen developed over the years.
AliasMan02
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Just left my second viewing of Solo. That movie is awesome. Not only that, it's exactly the type of movie that should reach across the spectrum and grab all sorts of fans. It was a good adventure film and really reached deep into Star Wars lore.

People campaigning against it in the name of the love of Star Wars are just cutting off their noses to spite their face.

I can't wait for some more adventure films like this that are removed from the saga story.
tamusc
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AliasMan02 said:

Just left my second viewing of Solo. That movie is awesome. Not only that, it's exactly the type of movie that should reach across the spectrum and grab all sorts of fans. It was a good adventure film and really reached deep into Star Wars lore.

People campaigning against it in the name of the love of Star Wars are just cutting off their noses to spite their face.

I can't wait for some more adventure films like this that are removed from the saga story.


Yep, just took my dad to see it (my second viewing) and he loved it. I really enjoyed it the second time through as well. Just a fun movie that really packs a ton of lore into it without feeling completely forced.
Ulrich
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TCTTS said:

VERY well said overall.

And if there's anything I still have problem with in the whole scenario, it's definitely this, which hits the nail on the head...

Quote:

Thinking of it as a viewer in real time, first he's risking everything, then it turns out he wasn't at risk at all, then he dies anyway.


Thanks!

There are a lot of pieces of a good movie in there, but I can't agree with people who think it was masterful in any sense. TLJ would probably make a fantastic novel, but as a movie i felt it was all frosting and no cake.
John Matrix
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AliasMan02 said:

Belton Ag said:

I actually enjoyed this part of TLJ and this sacrifice Luke made at the end. What I didn't like was how Luke was handled up to that point, and I think Johnson really disrespected the character by turning him into a disallusioned hermit that refused to even budge after he found out what happened to Han.


I understand this perspective, but I think it's the result of projecting a heroic image on Luke that is generated from our childhood. I think an objective characterization bears out RJ's story.



Gonna address some general things that are not necessarily your particular point.

There's a common thread that Luke wouldn't have that flash where he considers killing Ben. But really that's just the sort of thing that plagued Luke. He always, at every turn, teetered on the edge. Even pushed over slightly into the darkness.

And it's not like he didn't have a reason to fear the resurgent Dark Side in his nephew. Everything he had learned about the history of the Order said this would happen. All of HIS masters had stood watch over the rise of the Sith. He even explains this.

Another common thread is that Luke would never have left the galaxy and gone into exile. But, Luke's conclusion that the Jedi need to end is completely rational and supported by his explanation in the film. It makes perfect sense for him to be disillusioned given everything that he learned about his father, and the Order, and then what happened to his own students. And if he decides that the Jedi must end, it makes perfect sense that he destroy his ship and cut himself off from the Force so as not to be drawn back into the galactic conflict.

Ultimately, like the above tweet says, Luke's victory was complete. For the first time in his life he doesn't do the impulsive thing. He rises above the petty and destructive fight between practitioners of light and dark and wins the greater moral and philosophical victory. And again, he even explains this clearly to Kylo.

Luke's story was told just right, and really almost the only way it could be when really digging into the character. Having Luke be the flawless beacon of light would have not only been boring, but counter to the character we've seen developed over the years.


Perfectly stated. TLJ has faults, but its handling of Luke is not one of them. At the time, the fan boy side of me clambered for Luke to be unleashed I the first order. If so, it would have undone the themes set up in his character development. Finn/Rose still kind of suck in this movie, but he handling of Luke, Kylo/Rey, and Holdo/Poe perfectly reflect the theme of failure and how it shapes a person.

In terms of TLJ, I feel like I'm on crazy pills because I neither consider it a classic or an unmitigated disaster. It's a mixed bag with more good than bad.
Ulrich
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I don't have an issue with most of what they DID with Luke, but i don't think they portrayed it in a way for most people to appreciate it. Borrowing from a distinguished theorist of fiction writing (I can't remember which one), if "story" is the events in chronological order and "plot" is how much we see, how we see it, and in what order, all my issues are with the plot rather than the story.

By putting the plot ahead of the story, Luke's big sacrifice and emotional triumph dissolve into a confusing anticlimax without the emotional punch it ought to carry.

I'm not sure I recognize the bitter recluse as the Luke who dashed headlong into the fray a dozen times in the OT to rescue his friends, family, or random ladies in holograms, but that's still a separate item from thinking RJ portrayed the arc contained in the movie clumsily and ineffectively.

Another thing that I've realized while writing these posts is that I've only been thinking of Luke as an ancillary character to Rey's story, not as a main character in himself. Like Han, he's there to advance the main characters, get his moment, and die. That's how he's treated in the movie, too. My lack of expectations for the character (which I think is justified) might be part of why I see a fizzle where other people who spent the whole movie LOOKING for Luke's significance and expecting him to be important were more ready to construct the infrastructure necessary to make it make sense.
CJS4715
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What a refreshing discussion.
Saul Goodman
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CJS4715 said:

What a refreshing discussion.


No kidding. This has been great. I hope Star Wars fandom can escape the "TLJ sucks!" reflex and actually talk about the good and bad like people have done here today. No matter what you think of RJ's vision, at least he gave people something to think and talk about. Ulrich and Alias with some great contributions.
Dekker_Lentz
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I really want to get on board with Luke's story, but I think two things hold me back.

1. I really needed to see more of Kylo training to be a Jedi and the darkness that lead Luke to believe that his only course of action was to murder him. I can buy the idea that Luke felt he had to live in exile, because of this act, but I felt the movie told me this, rather than showed me. With as much time as this movie wastes on tangents, it seems this could have been tightened up.

2. Honestly, the teleportation scene missed for me. I mean some of these explanations help, but it just feels hollow. I agree he couldn't have gone all Force Unleased, but I think if it was an art piece it needed to be more artistic. Like some said above, on paper it looks a lot better than it did visually. I just wanted him to be there, face to face with Kylo. In a New Hope, Vader's reaction to Obi Wan's robe being empty is a great scene. The preoccupation with the robe allowed the Rebels to escape, and in a lot of ways put Vader on his path to redemention. It felt like a turning point which we have had five movies and a TV series building on.

I think had Luke's robe been left behind Kylo Ren as Luke walked past, there would be an impact there. Something to forward's Kylo Journey. Instead his robe is left on some distant planet where no one will find it? I dunno, it felt like a waste. For a set of movies so eager to make callbacks, it seems like they keep missing the important call backs. Obi Wan had to face Vader alone. Luke had to face Kylo alone. Because both characters owed it to their apprentice.
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FL_Ag1998 said:

Nothing Johnson did with that film was masterful.
This.

Have some of y'all ever seen SW??

Like a midget in a grocery store, you're all reaching.
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AliasMan02 said:

Belton Ag said:

I actually enjoyed this part of TLJ and this sacrifice Luke made at the end. What I didn't like was how Luke was handled up to that point, and I think Johnson really disrespected the character by turning him into a disallusioned hermit that refused to even budge after he found out what happened to Han.


I understand this perspective, but I think it's the result of projecting a heroic image on Luke that is generated from our childhood. I think an objective characterization bears out RJ's story.

Gonna address some general things that are not necessarily your particular point.

There's a common thread that Luke wouldn't have that flash where he considers killing Ben. But really that's just the sort of thing that plagued Luke. He always, at every turn, teetered on the edge. Even pushed over slightly into the darkness.

And it's not like he didn't have a reason to fear the resurgent Dark Side in his nephew. Everything he had learned about the history of the Order said this would happen. All of HIS masters had stood watch over the rise of the Sith. He even explains this.

Another common thread is that Luke would never have left the galaxy and gone into exile. But, Luke's conclusion that the Jedi need to end is completely rational and supported by his explanation in the film. It makes perfect sense for him to be disillusioned given everything that he learned about his father, and the Order, and then what happened to his own students. And if he decides that the Jedi must end, it makes perfect sense that he destroy his ship and cut himself off from the Force so as not to be drawn back into the galactic conflict.

Ultimately, like the above tweet says, Luke's victory was complete. For the first time in his life he doesn't do the impulsive thing. He rises above the petty and destructive fight between practitioners of light and dark and wins the greater moral and philosophical victory. And again, he even explains this clearly to Kylo.

Luke's story was told just right, and really almost the only way it could be when really digging into the character. Having Luke be the flawless beacon of light would have not only been boring, but counter to the character we've seen developed over the years.

Luke is petty? Really??? Man, I sure never thought that when he defeated Space Satan and redeemed his Space Hitler father. I guess I was watching a different movie. Y'know, a movie where an utterly relatable human being defeats evil and brings peace and hope to the galaxy?? But no, that was all petty and impulsive crap. Instead, we need a tone of detached nihilism and a theme of moral relativism in SW. How exciting!!!

Y'all are over-intellectualizing this. The Light side is not some competing, bickering philosophy over many - it was meant to be goodness, love, and truth itself. The Dark side is the absence of those things. There is no relativism in SW. The prequels made the Jedi ***holes, but they weren't that way in the OT. Since the OT came first and is objectively great, the OT is how the Jedi should be viewed. Forget the prequels. The EU did, which is how the sequel trilogy should have handled the Jedi. Luke REFORMED the Jedi in the EU, he didn't decide to freakin' end the Order. That is the natural evolution of his character, not disgruntled old man sucking alien tit.

Further, SW was always LOTR in space. Like LOTR, it never had complicated themes. Additionally, the main characters are very very similar. So to say Luke is a "boring, flawless beacon of light" is like saying Frodo, Aragorn, and Gandalf were all boring characters in LOTR. Really??? And to say Luke was "flawless" isn't even an accurate statement - Luke struggled throughout the OT. Hell, he slid to the Dark side a bit when he wails on Vader in the throne room. Meanwhile, Rey hasn't earned anything via training, has undergone NO struggles, and yet is the master of everything. There's your boring flawless beacon of light, not Luke Skywalker.

C'mon people. Y'all can like TLJ, but not at the expense of understanding what makes Star Wars, Star Wars.

Rant over.
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Dekker_Lentz said:

I really want to get on board with Luke's story, but I think two things hold me back.

1. I really needed to see more of Kylo training to be a Jedi and the darkness that lead Luke to believe that his only course of action was to murder him. I can buy the idea that Luke felt he had to live in exile, because of this act, but I felt the movie told me this, rather than showed me. With as much time as this movie wastes on tangents, it seems this could have been tightened up.

2. Honestly, the teleportation scene missed for me. I mean some of these explanations help, but it just feels hollow. I agree he couldn't have gone all Force Unleased, but I think if it was an art piece it needed to be more artistic. Like some said above, on paper it looks a lot better than it did visually. I just wanted him to be there, face to face with Kylo. In a New Hope, Vader's reaction to Obi Wan's robe being empty is a great scene. The preoccupation with the robe allowed the Rebels to escape, and in a lot of ways put Vader on his path to redemention. It felt like a turning point which we have had five movies and a TV series building on.

I think had Luke's robe been left behind Kylo Ren as Luke walked past, there would be an impact there. Something to forward's Kylo Journey. Instead his robe is left on some distant planet where no one will find it? I dunno, it felt like a waste. For a set of movies so eager to make callbacks, it seems like they keep missing the important call backs. Obi Wan had to face Vader alone. Luke had to face Kylo alone. Because both characters owed it to their apprentice.
I agree, show the audience, don't tell. I heard a proposal once wherein the rise of the Knights of Ren/Kylo should have been the focus of TFA. TFA should have been the place to flush-out Kylo's character. We get to see how Kylo falls and why. Luke then becomes cynical at the end of TFA, which leads to Rey helping him regain his optimism in TLJ.

"For a set of movies so eager to make callbacks, it seems like they keep missing the important call backs."

This is a great point. They cram all the pointless stuff in there - blue milk, holo chess, training ball, smuggling compartments - but the deeper mechanics of the series, they miss.

And I guess I can appreciate RJ tried to do something different with Luke's apparition (like Lucas with Jar Jar, etc), but ultimately it's just a bad idea. In theory it works, but not in execution. For example, by the time we get to the Kylo vs. not-Luke non-fight event, too many "Gotcha!" twists have already happened, so the audience is desensitized to plot twists. Additionally, why even structure the movie is such a way where Luke either has to go Force Unleashed or go out in an awkward, ungraceful way? They wrote themselves into a corner.

And I get it, Luke shouldn't be OP. A compromise would be a combination of Obi-Wan and Gandalf the Grey's sacrifice. Luke physically demonstrates some Force mastery before his bodily sacrifice. This ain't complicated. Stop trying to be cute and just run the ball down the field.

And in regards to Luke's prior established character and movie arcs, it doesn't work. Luke would not mock his opponent - he would take him seriously and physically be there to try to save him, especially if the opponent is a fallen student. That was Luke's whole shtick in the OT - redemption! Just another example of the deeper mechanics of SW being completely lost in the flood. And sure, Luke could go through a cynical arc, but by the time he faced Kylo at the end of the movie, he would have regained his true point-of-view. That emotional arc combined with Luke physically being there, would make his sacrifice much more poignant.

TLJ is just a failure in movie pacing, plot structure, and emotional arcs.
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"I understand this perspective, but I think it's the result of projecting a heroic image on Luke that is generated from our childhood. I think an objective characterization bears out RJ's story.

Gonna address some general things that are not necessarily your particular point.

There's a common thread that Luke wouldn't have that flash where he considers killing Ben. But really that's just the sort of thing that plagued Luke. He always, at every turn, teetered on the edge. Even pushed over slightly into the darkness.

And it's not like he didn't have a reason to fear the resurgent Dark Side in his nephew. Everything he had learned about the history of the Order said this would happen. All of HIS masters had stood watch over the rise of the Sith. He even explains this."


Everything in the OT facilitates Luke choosing to take the optimistic view of things, but TLJ made him see the negative in everything. And that's simply not the lesson he learned in the OT:

Go against insurmountable odds, go against the so-called wise insight of your masters, and go against the so-called logic which says history will always repeat itself. And if you do, unbelievable things will happen. You will redeem your evil father, defeat a supremely powerful Force-user vastly more skilled than you, and topple a military dictatorship, bringing a new era of harmony to the galaxy.

If that's Luke's life experience, why the hell would he choose to take the extreme negative view of things???

He wouldn't.

Instead, he would say something like, "Yes, a great travesty happened in the past, but we learn from our mistakes. If Vader can be redeemed, I believe the Jedi can be too. I believe the Jedi are fundamentally good, because the Light side was not snuffed out by the darkness, but instead it shone out the dark. We will not be deceived by the darkness anymore." It reflects his title - A New Hope. Luke brings Hope - hope that things can change and will change for the better.

And it was not in Luke's intrinsic character to teeter on the edge of the Dark side. Luke was never in any real danger of sliding to the Dark side via his own free will. He didn't have the luxury of moral ambiguity, because of his upbringing and his experiences. He knew who the bad guys were, and wasn't swayed by what they were offering. (Unlike Mr. I-Don't-Like-Sand-It's-Coarse-And-Rough-And-Irritating-And-It-Gets-Everywhere.)

The only instances where he was legitimately tempted were when Luke's buttons were relentlessly pushed by the Emperor and Vader in the throne room. In other words, other characters had to deeply manipulate Luke to get him to even waver, because he wasn't naturally susceptible to the seductions of the Dark side.

So people aren't projecting a "heroic vision" on Luke, they're simply following the organic development of his character.
AliasMan02
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Render said:


And it was not in Luke's intrinsic character to teeter on the edge of the Dark side. Luke was never in any real danger of sliding to the Dark side via his own free will. He didn't have the luxury of moral ambiguity, because of his upbringing and his experiences. He knew who the bad guys were, and wasn't swayed by what they were offering. (Unlike Mr. I-Don't-Like-Sand-It's-Coarse-And-Rough-And-Irritating-And-It-Gets-Everywhere.)

The only instances where he was legitimately tempted were when Luke's buttons were relentlessly pushed by the Emperor and Vader in the throne room. In other words, other characters had to deeply manipulate Luke to get him to even waver, because he wasn't naturally susceptible to the seductions of the Dark side.

So people aren't projecting a "heroic vision" on Luke, they're simply following the organic development of his character.



I'll just address this last point because it sums up exactly what I'm saying. This view of Luke, that he was never in serious danger or genuinely tempted of his own will to cross over to the Dark Side, is completely incorrect. His path to the Dark Side is the entire theme of his training with Yoda. By the time we rejoin him in RotJ, he is Force choking Gamorreans and is literally becoming his father with his mechanical hand.

His tapping into the Dark Side in the throne room is no small thing. You can't dismiss it as "his buttons are being pushed." His struggle is shown on the screen as we see him hiding from Vader, face half in light and half in dark, just before Vader's goading pushes him over the edge.

While Luke didn't fall, it was close. When he later looks into Ben and sees a future that is Kylo Ren murdering all of Luke's loved ones and bringing darkness to the galaxy, he considers FOR AN INSTANT putting a stop to it. Knowing what Luke knows and having seen what Luke has seen, what about that is out of his character?
Ulrich
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I agree that Luke has struggled with the dark, but he's also fundamentally hopeful. The attempted murder scene felt not exactly wrong, but maybe cheap? This would have been a massive moment in both Kylo and Luke's lives, but we get the moment in flashback without the run up. To echo a previous poster, for Luke to murder a student, he would have had to learn nothing from his life experiences up to that point. He knows personally how seductive the dark side is. He knows personally that evil can be redeemed. He attacks problems head on no matter how daunting. Does he, of all people, try to murder a student in his sleep and then disappear for years?

It felt like RJ needed a reason that Kylo's fall wasn't completely his own fault and Luke was alone on an island so he came up with something DRAMATIC and didn't worry about it making sense. Almost like he worked backwards from the visual.

Once you've accepted that event the way RJ portrayed it, does it make the end work better? Marginally, but since I don't think the end worked that's pretty faint praise.
CJS4715
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The complaint that Rey has had no struggle, is this just with the force and her skills specifically?
AliasMan02
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Ulrich said:

I agree that Luke has struggled with the dark, but he's also fundamentally hopeful. The attempted murder scene felt not exactly wrong, but maybe cheap? This would have been a massive moment in both Kylo and Luke's lives, but we get the moment in flashback without the run up. To echo a previous poster, for Luke to murder a student, he would have had to learn nothing from his life experiences up to that point. He knows personally how seductive the dark side is. He knows personally that evil can be redeemed. He attacks problems head on no matter how daunting. Does he, of all people, try to murder a student in his sleep and then disappear for years?

It felt like RJ needed a reason that Kylo's fall wasn't completely his own fault and Luke was alone on an island so he came up with something DRAMATIC and didn't worry about it making sense. Almost like he worked backwards from the visual.

Once you've accepted that event the way RJ portrayed it, does it make the end work better? Marginally, but since I don't think the end worked that's pretty faint praise.


For starters, Luke did not attempt to murder Ben. He saw into Ben and glimpsed the darkness there. Saw Ben murdering and destroying everyone and everything he loved. And for one moment, thought, "I can't let this happen."

And then, after that instant, he comes to the very conclusion you're talking about.

I do agree that RJ may well have adopted the Rashimon story very early in his concept and one of my criticisms is that some of his cinematic choices were too clever by a half, and that would be such an example. That doesn't invalidate his portrayal of Luke, though.
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Luke's role and ultimately his ending were the least of the problems for TLJ.

TCTTS
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AG
This.

For me, I honestly don't know what I even wanted from Luke going in. Whether he was optimistic or not, I didn't really care, and even though I still have some issues with his plot line and interactions with Rey, I was fine with it overall, more or less.

We've beat this horse to death, but yeah, it was the Finn/Rose and Poe/Holdo stuff that was often cringeworthy and the real reason TLJ falls short for so many people, myself included.

I have my issues with Abrams as well, of course, as I've noted here countless times, but at least his movies are never boring, and are never bogged down with condescending lessons. In that sense, even though I'm sure I'll have plenty of issues with Episode IX's plot, we should at least see the return of a fun adventure film with a relatively singular thrust. Rewatching TLJ a couple months back, I was surprised at just how boring it was at times, and never felt like a singular, cohesive narrative. For all his problems, Abrams never has that issue. His movies hum with energy, and I'm finding myself more and more excited for the clean slate he has to work with.

I'm hoping it almost like feels like TFA and TLJ were their own thing - like their own duology - and Episode IX ends up being something that's able to stand on its own. It'll of course focus on Rey, Kylo, Finn, and Poe, and finally wrap up their stories, but with no Luke, Leia, Han, or Snoke - and the setting sounding like it's going to potentially be years later - there's an opportunity for IX to stand out as something unique and almost it's own new story, one that not only that ties a bow on the sequel trilogy, but, as mentioned before, the Skywalker saga as a whole.

Actually, the more I think about it, there could be some nice symmetry when all is said and done...

____________________

- Episode I = Set many years prior to Episode II, almost stands on its own in a way. Sets up many of the characters for the rest of the trilogy, of course, but is set far enough before that it feels relatively contained.

- Episodes II & III = Very much their own, singular story focusing on Christensen as Anakin.

____________________

- Episode IV

- Episode V

- Episode VI

= A tradition trilogy that serves as the anchor/meat of the saga.

____________________

- Episodes VII & VIII = Very much their own, singular story, focusing on the torch being passed to the next generation.

- Episode IX = Set a number of years after Episode VIII, could almost stand on its own in a way. Wraps up many of the characters from earlier in the trilogy, of course, but is set far enough after it that it feels relatively contained...

... enough so that it can also wrap up the entire saga as well. In other words, the room to "breathe" allows it to be able to focus not solely on wrapping up VII & VIII's plot lines since, frankly, the majority of those plot lines are already wrapped.

____________________


(And yes, in a way, I just compared Episode IX to The Phantom Menace, but I still hold that TPM is the best of the PT, so hopefully IX can be the best of the ST.)
Ag Since 83
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TCTTS said:

but I still hold that TPM is the best of the PT
Huh?

Do you like sand or something?
TCTTS
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I was hoping that wouldn't be the take away from my post. I've made my case on here multiple times before, no need to rehash it again.
CJS4715
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Abrams helped my kids fall in love with Star Wars, and for that, I'll always give him a thumbs up.
Ulrich
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TCTTS said:

I was hoping that wouldn't be the take away from my post. I've made my case on here multiple times before, no need to rehash it again.

TCTTS wants to marry The Phantom Menace, you all saw it.
CJS4715
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AG
Ulrich said:

TCTTS wants to marry The Phantom Menace, you all saw it.

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