Star Wars Discussion Thread

3,059,153 Views | 29504 Replies | Last: 1 hr ago by MuckRaker96
Dekker_Lentz
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
TCTTS said:

- Episode IX = Set a number of years after Episode VIII, could almost stand on its own in a way. Wraps up many of the characters from earlier in the trilogy, of course, but is set far enough after it that it feels relatively contained...

... enough so that it can also wrap up the entire saga as well. In other words, the room to "breathe" allows it to be able to focus not solely on wrapping up VII & VIII's plot lines since, frankly, the majority of those plot lines are already wrapped.

I am genuinely curious on what this would look like for you and/or what you think Disney will do?

I honestly have no idea what this would look like.

If we think of the twelve movies being about end of the Galactic Republic.

1-3 is the Fall of the Galactic Republic,
Rogue One/Solo/Kenobi?/etc are the the Transition from the Republic to the Empire,
4-6 is the Fall of the Empire, and
7-9 is the Aftermath of the Fall of two great Empires

Then I think 9 will end with Rey and some combination of Finn/Rose/Poe/Maz defeating the First Order/Kylo Ren. They look around and basically ask, "Where do we go from here?" There is no Republic, Empire, or Jedi Order to restore and the galaxy is free to choose a new path.

This leaves the slated 6 movies to resolve and rebuild the Star Wars universe into whatever Disney wants.
israeliag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
A post First Order direction-less galaxy would be a great premise for a TV series to explore. It can go deep on the competing factions, politicking, and chess games that makes a Game of Thrones or Expanse good but would be boring for movie.
TCTTS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
That would be DOPE. And yeah, would make for a perfect TV series.
TCTTS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG

Quote:

This leaves the slated 6 movies to resolve and rebuild the Star Wars universe into whatever Disney wants.

I probably wouldn't bet on this. Rian Johnson's trilogy might, tangentially, deal with with the after effects of Episode IX, but I don't think directly in any way. And I could be wrong, but Benioff & Weiss' movie(s) will likely be far in the past, as heavily speculated.
redline248
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Finally watched Solo last night, and have been avoiding this thread since before it opened.

Come back and it's 17 pagers of TLJ bickering. Of course it was.

Anyway, why can't they let Maul stay dead? This is after the emperor kicked his ass on Mandalore in the clone Wars series, and before Rebels, correct? Am I going to have to read a book or comic to figure out how he got to that point?

And in regards to a post about the Knights of Ren vision...it doesn't rain on Mustafar.
Urban Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I still think the Knights of Ren flashback scene is Luke's Academy. I think it's a least a few years after Luke almost kills Kylo and that Kylo has been aligned with Snoke since leaving Luke. The Knights of Ren is probably some collection of semi force sensitive thugs that Kylo and Snoke patched together and that destroying Luke's academy was a "test" that Snoke forced Kylo to undergo to prove his loyalty.

Also starting to think that Rian didn't develop this part of the story further for a reason. TLJ furthers the notion of a conflicted Kylo Ren, even somewhat sympathetic. At least until the very end of the film where he basically loses his sh**. I think JJ intended all along for a final reveal that shows Kylo and the Knights of Ren slaughtering Luke's Jedi academy where it will also be revealed that Rey was there and that she did come from Jedi lineage, and after the destruction of the academy she was in fact "hidden" on Jakku although watched over. Probably by the old guy from Strange Brew.

Whatever it takes
Belton Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I was genuinely curious about Rey's lineage and where Snoke first meets Kylo (It appears he was turning Kylo when Kylo was still at Luke's academy). Johnson didn't resolve either curiosity very well. He didn't even address when Snoke and Kylo first met. That was my biggest disappointment in TLJ; I don't blame Johnson as much as I do Abrams for laying out those red herrings.
jabberwalkie09
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Belton Ag said:

I was genuinely curious about Rey's lineage and where Snoke first meets Kylo (It appears he was turning Kylo when Kylo was still at Luke's academy). Johnson didn't resolve either curiosity very well. He didn't even address when Snoke and Kylo first met. That was my biggest disappointment in TLJ; I don't blame Johnson as much as I do Abrams for laying out those red herrings.

I don't know if I would lay that blame entirely at Abrams' feet. Did he play a part? Sure, but it goes deeper than him. I mean, JJ accommodated Rian's request with Phasma who was brought back in TLJ and served no apparent purpose.
Belton Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Yeah, I guess the biggest blame would have to lie with Lucasfilm for allowing that to happen. At this point I'm hoping that they don't even address these issues in Episode IX and move on to the story at hand.
Flashdiaz
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Belton Ag said:

I was genuinely curious about Rey's lineage and where Snoke first meets Kylo (It appears he was turning Kylo when Kylo was still at Luke's academy). Johnson didn't resolve either curiosity very well. He didn't even address when Snoke and Kylo first met. That was my biggest disappointment in TLJ; I don't blame Johnson as much as I do Abrams for laying out those red herrings.
I actually blame Kathleen Kennedy for not having a skeletal structure in place on where this trilogy is going. Rey's lineage should have been defined internally from the beginning so you don't have directors set something up just so the next director can discard and\or ignore it.
My biggest problem with TLJ is how disjointed it is from TFA.

That being said, I don't think we need to know of Kylo and Snoke's relationship spelled out, I'm actually ok with how Snoke was handled.
bangobango
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Ultimately, the blame lies with Kennedy, but at this point I am pretty certain that at least one major reason Colin Treverrow was let go is because he was raising holy hell about the decisions Rian Johnson was making, and I suspect that one of the reasons JJ Abrahms decided to replace Treverrow is because he wants to try to repair the mess that Rian Johnson made of the story he set up in TFA.

Again, I know I keep coming back to this, but TLJ is not going to age well. Just on a basic plot structure, there is absolutely nothing about that movie that hits what should be the second act of a three movie.

I'll make this prediction right now about the final movie, It will 1) feel like a stand alone movie and not the conclusion to a trilogy; and 2) feel like they are retconning to cover a lot of the poor decisions Rian Johnson made in the second movie, and what sucks about that is those moments are going to really stand out in a meta way and feel very, very forced rather than a natural progression of the story-telling.
Blatant Disregard
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Flashdiaz said:

Belton Ag said:

I was genuinely curious about Rey's lineage and where Snoke first meets Kylo (It appears he was turning Kylo when Kylo was still at Luke's academy). Johnson didn't resolve either curiosity very well. He didn't even address when Snoke and Kylo first met. That was my biggest disappointment in TLJ; I don't blame Johnson as much as I do Abrams for laying out those red herrings.
I actually blame Kathleen Kennedy for not having a skeletal structure in place on where this trilogy is going. Rey's lineage should have been defined internally from the beginning so you don't have directors set something up just so the next director can discard and\or ignore it.
My biggest problem with TLJ is how disjointed it is from TFA.

That being said, I don't think we need to know of Kylo and Snoke's relationship spelled out, I'm actually ok with how Snoke was handled.
This.

When Disney bought the franchise, I assume they began discussing the next trilogy. At some point, surely someone asked "what story do we want to tell?"

Can anyone at Disney actually answer that question?
Zombie Jon Snow
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Blatant Disregard said:

Flashdiaz said:

Belton Ag said:

I was genuinely curious about Rey's lineage and where Snoke first meets Kylo (It appears he was turning Kylo when Kylo was still at Luke's academy). Johnson didn't resolve either curiosity very well. He didn't even address when Snoke and Kylo first met. That was my biggest disappointment in TLJ; I don't blame Johnson as much as I do Abrams for laying out those red herrings.
I actually blame Kathleen Kennedy for not having a skeletal structure in place on where this trilogy is going. Rey's lineage should have been defined internally from the beginning so you don't have directors set something up just so the next director can discard and\or ignore it.
My biggest problem with TLJ is how disjointed it is from TFA.

That being said, I don't think we need to know of Kylo and Snoke's relationship spelled out, I'm actually ok with how Snoke was handled.
This.

When Disney bought the franchise, I assume they began discussing the next trilogy. At some point, surely someone asked "what story do we want to tell?"

Can anyone at Disney actually answer that question?

the story of making money.


jabberwalkie09
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
bangobango said:

Ultimately, the blame lies with Kennedy, but at this point I am pretty certain that at least one major reason Colin Treverrow was let go is because he was raising holy hell about the decisions Rian Johnson was making, and I suspect that one of the reasons JJ Abrahms decided to replace Treverrow is because he wants to try to repair the mess that Rian Johnson made of the story he set up in TFA.

Again, I know I keep coming back to this, but TLJ is not going to age well. Just on a basic plot structure, there is absolutely nothing about that movie that hits what should be the second act of a three movie.

I'll make this prediction right now about the final movie, It will 1) feel like a stand alone movie and not the conclusion to a trilogy; and 2) feel like they are retconning to cover a lot of the poor decisions Rian Johnson made in the second movie, and what sucks about that is those moments are going to really stand out in a meta way and feel very, very forced rather than a natural progression of the story-telling.

I think IX is going to pull a Star Trek Beyond-esque type of thing. Enough time will have passed and things changed that TLJ will barely be referenced. Which I guess you could say it will feel like a standalone film, while still being a sequel. Part of my issue with what was rumored about IX is how Leia was going to have a large part in the movie which started with how TLJ heavily focused on Leia and had Finn and Poe most notably somewhat regress as characters, but TFA set it up so that Finn, Poe, and Rey were setup to be the focus. So everything is upside down at the moment, I guess you could say it's gone pear shaped. Just my two cents on that.

As to Treverrow, I could see that.
CJS4715
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Flashdiaz said:

My biggest problem with TLJ is how disjointed it is from TFA.



It's really difficult to watch the movies back to back. They are way too different in tone.
jabberwalkie09
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Quote:

When Disney bought the franchise, I assume they began discussing the next trilogy. At some point, surely someone asked "what story do we want to tell?"

Can anyone at Disney actually answer that question?

I'm waiting for someone inside sources at Lucasfilm to speak out on how what was initially reported when the sequel trilogy was starting being planned, and how and who had it morphed into what it is now. I just have to wonder how long it will be until that happens.
Render
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
AliasMan02 said:

Render said:


And it was not in Luke's intrinsic character to teeter on the edge of the Dark side. Luke was never in any real danger of sliding to the Dark side via his own free will. He didn't have the luxury of moral ambiguity, because of his upbringing and his experiences. He knew who the bad guys were, and wasn't swayed by what they were offering. (Unlike Mr. I-Don't-Like-Sand-It's-Coarse-And-Rough-And-Irritating-And-It-Gets-Everywhere.)

The only instances where he was legitimately tempted were when Luke's buttons were relentlessly pushed by the Emperor and Vader in the throne room. In other words, other characters had to deeply manipulate Luke to get him to even waver, because he wasn't naturally susceptible to the seductions of the Dark side.

So people aren't projecting a "heroic vision" on Luke, they're simply following the organic development of his character.



I'll just address this last point because it sums up exactly what I'm saying. This view of Luke, that he was never in serious danger or genuinely tempted of his own will to cross over to the Dark Side, is completely incorrect. His path to the Dark Side is the entire theme of his training with Yoda. By the time we rejoin him in RotJ, he is Force choking Gamorreans and is literally becoming his father with his mechanical hand.

His tapping into the Dark Side in the throne room is no small thing. You can't dismiss it as "his buttons are being pushed." His struggle is shown on the screen as we see him hiding from Vader, face half in light and half in dark, just before Vader's goading pushes him over the edge.

While Luke didn't fall, it was close. When he later looks into Ben and sees a future that is Kylo Ren murdering all of Luke's loved ones and bringing darkness to the galaxy, he considers FOR AN INSTANT putting a stop to it. Knowing what Luke knows and having seen what Luke has seen, what about that is out of his character?

ROTJ completed Luke's character arc in the OT. He makes the decision not to kill his father, finally deciding to reject the Dark side completely. It was the climatic, emotional center of the entire trilogy.

"No. I'll never turn to the Dark side. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

So it makes no sense from a storytelling/character POV to have him regress in his development to the point where he'd seriously consider killing a person in their sleep, no matter how "warranted" it may be. He's already conquered that test. Add to that it's 30 years after ROTJ, so Luke has more than likely gained more wisdom, insight, and self-control. For Luke to have grave doubts is one thing, but to have him covertly go into Ben's tent and activate his lightsaber is quite another. For comparison, Yoda and Obi-Wan counseled Luke about his tendencies, they never considered killing him because of them. Wouldn't Luke do the same with Ben?

Your analysis of Luke's struggle with the Dark side is more accurate than mine was. I was unconsciously comparing Luke to Anakin, since the OT was more nuanced than the prequels (subduing some Gamorreans guards vs slaughtering an entire village of sand people) so I underestimated Luke's struggle.

However, I stand by my point that to have Luke essentially re-do the scene where he rejects killing his father undercuts the character growth that has already happened, as well as the central thematic scene in the OT.
Render
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
CJS4715 said:

The complaint that Rey has had no struggle, is this just with the force and her skills specifically?

It's the entire way she was written.

Rey is good at... speaking Wookie, speaking droid, repairing the Falcon, flying the Falcon, defeating a Sith in her first lightsaber battle, hitting stormtroopers with superb accuracy with a blaster, deftly killing Snoke's highly-trained guards with no injury, intuitively knowing the secrets of the Jedi despite not reading the sacred texts, lifting rocks better than Yoda lifted the X-Wing...

Without training, or a guardian-type mentorship, or anything.

How can we respect a character who never earns anything she gets?
TCTTS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
This has always been my biggest issue with these movies as a whole.
jabberwalkie09
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
TCTTS said:

This has always been my biggest issue with these movies as a whole.

Are you speaking to the sequel trilogy specifically? Or the franchise as a whole?
TCTTS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Sorry, the sequel trilogy, specifically.
jabberwalkie09
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
TCTTS said:

Sorry, the sequel trilogy, specifically.

Got ya. It definitely is a problem character development wise.
TCTTS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
It's hard because Rey is a fantastic, breath-of-fresh-air character, and Daisy Ridley does such a great job with the role. But her arc has been so bland, and her skills/powers so unearned, that it completely undoes the charm of the character. For me at least.
Ulrich
How long do you want to ignore this user?
The worst example is when Kylo tries to read her mind and she instantly reverse engineers the technique and reads his instead. Ok, let's say that you can defeat a Sith in physical combat because he's injured and you've got some skill with a bowstaff. What exactly in a desert scavenger's experience prepares you to read minds?

I'm still somewhat hopeful that Abrams will provide an explanation that she is unlocking skills she already had learned.
TCTTS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
The explanation that I've heard that I can kind of buy is her being given all these skills so quickly is the Force working overtime basically to balance itself out. I don't like it, and I'd still rather see a character earn/practice/fail at these skills over time before becoming an expert, but at this point I really don't even care any more.
Ulrich
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Good example of a logical explanation that isn't a satisfying payoff.
jabberwalkie09
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
TCTTS said:

The explanation that I've heard that I can kind of buy is her being given all these skills so quickly is the Force working overtime basically to balance itself out. I don't like it, and I'd still rather see a character earn/practice/fail at these skills over time before becoming an expert, but at this point I really don't even care any more.



That's some pretty big hand waving. I mean, I don't expect her to struggle to learn. But she's practically omnipotent at this point. He'll by the end of IX, I practically expect her to be more powerful than Anakin and Luke...
PatAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Render said:

AliasMan02 said:

Render said:


And it was not in Luke's intrinsic character to teeter on the edge of the Dark side. Luke was never in any real danger of sliding to the Dark side via his own free will. He didn't have the luxury of moral ambiguity, because of his upbringing and his experiences. He knew who the bad guys were, and wasn't swayed by what they were offering. (Unlike Mr. I-Don't-Like-Sand-It's-Coarse-And-Rough-And-Irritating-And-It-Gets-Everywhere.)

The only instances where he was legitimately tempted were when Luke's buttons were relentlessly pushed by the Emperor and Vader in the throne room. In other words, other characters had to deeply manipulate Luke to get him to even waver, because he wasn't naturally susceptible to the seductions of the Dark side.

So people aren't projecting a "heroic vision" on Luke, they're simply following the organic development of his character.



I'll just address this last point because it sums up exactly what I'm saying. This view of Luke, that he was never in serious danger or genuinely tempted of his own will to cross over to the Dark Side, is completely incorrect. His path to the Dark Side is the entire theme of his training with Yoda. By the time we rejoin him in RotJ, he is Force choking Gamorreans and is literally becoming his father with his mechanical hand.

His tapping into the Dark Side in the throne room is no small thing. You can't dismiss it as "his buttons are being pushed." His struggle is shown on the screen as we see him hiding from Vader, face half in light and half in dark, just before Vader's goading pushes him over the edge.

While Luke didn't fall, it was close. When he later looks into Ben and sees a future that is Kylo Ren murdering all of Luke's loved ones and bringing darkness to the galaxy, he considers FOR AN INSTANT putting a stop to it. Knowing what Luke knows and having seen what Luke has seen, what about that is out of his character?

ROTJ completed Luke's character arc in the OT. He makes the decision not to kill his father, finally deciding to reject the Dark side completely. It was the climatic, emotional center of the entire trilogy.

"No. I'll never turn to the Dark side. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

So it makes no sense from a storytelling/character POV to have him regress in his development to the point where he'd seriously consider killing a person in their sleep, no matter how "warranted" it may be. He's already conquered that test. Add to that it's 30 years after ROTJ, so Luke has more than likely gained more wisdom, insight, and self-control. For Luke to have grave doubts is one thing, but to have him covertly go into Ben's tent and activate his lightsaber is quite another. For comparison, Yoda and Obi-Wan counseled Luke about his tendencies, they never considered killing him because of them. Wouldn't Luke do the same with Ben?

Your analysis of Luke's struggle with the Dark side is more accurate than mine was. I was unconsciously comparing Luke to Anakin, since the OT was more nuanced than the prequels (subduing some Gamorreans guards vs slaughtering an entire village of sand people) so I underestimated Luke's struggle.

However, I stand by my point that to have Luke essentially re-do the scene where he rejects killing his father undercuts the character growth that has already happened, as well as the central thematic scene in the OT.
After your initial posts the other day, I thought you were a huge troll. You might still be, but what you said about Luke is spot on.
CJS4715
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Yea, I'm not crazy on her being force-gifted so much power immediately. It's a terrible precedent and extremely uninteresting. Also, if the force is really in complete control, then I expect it wouldn't vest that much power in one single person.
Render
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Ha ha, I'll take that as I compliment! Admittedly I tend to get too heated and pointed when I talk about things I care about, so I completely understand if I sound like an ***hole sometimes. I just get caught up in the heat of the moment.

I appreciate the patience people have had with my ramblings.
PatAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Render said:

Ha ha, I'll take that as I compliment! Admittedly I tend to get too heated and pointed when I talk about things I care about, so I completely understand if I sound like an ***hole sometimes. I just get caught up in the heat of the moment.

I appreciate the patience people have had with my ramblings.
There was just one post where I thought you were another person from politics coming to troll, the others were all good.
Flashdiaz
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
CJS4715 said:

Yea, I'm not crazy on her being force-gifted so much power immediately. It's a terrible precedent and extremely uninteresting. Also, if the force is really in complete control, then I expect it wouldn't vest that much power in one single person.

agree. What's the point in training if the force is just going to cheat code someone to get the force balanced? What happens if Rye joined Kylo, the broom kid gets super mega jedi upgrade?

Belton Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
TCTTS said:

It's hard because Rey is a fantastic, breath-of-fresh-air character, and Daisy Ridley does such a great job with the role. But her arc has been so bland, and her skills/powers so unearned, that it completely undoes the charm of the character. For me at least.
This is where I get disappointed in Johnson's treatment of the story. In the time spent on the island, he could have fleshed out her backstory (even if she came from "nothing") and had Luke train her much the same way as Yoda trained Luke in ESB. Instead we got disallusioned hermit Luke and alien milking. Going back to what I said in an earlier post about Luke and how I didn't like the way Johnson handled him, I really feel there was a blown opportunity to further develop Rey using Luke. Instead she spent the entire time talking to Kylo through some contrived mind bridging, which ultimately led nowhere and had no real impact on the story.
CJS4715
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Belton Ag said:

Instead she spent the entire time talking to Kylo through some contrived mind bridging, which ultimately led nowhere and had no real impact on the story.


See, this is where I see the most disagreement on the film. I thought the scenes between Rey and Kylo were the best part of The Last Jedi. Very simplistically, it is interesting that both seemingly need one another for validation, but only one is willing to walk away from it.
CJS4715
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Flashdiaz said:

What's the point in training if the force is just going to cheat code someone to get the force balanced? What happens if Rye joined Kylo, the broom kid gets super mega jedi upgrade?



Well, we can explain it all away, thanks to Magic Stick Man.
Page 730 of 843
 
×
Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.