SunrayAg said:

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Beat40 said:

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Fitch said:

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They straight up lied or omitted to avoid a run on masks a la toilet paper back in March. When supplies were secured the message reversed. Damned either way, but doesn't make it right.

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Yup, they didn't treat people like adults and at least advise wearing cloth masks. Instead, they said no masks work. Dumb.

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Dumb would have been telling the brainless huddled masses that masks were necessary during a time when they were in short supply, and watching them be hoarded and unavailable in the hospitals where they were desperately needed.

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My point is they could have said, "Hey, we need N95 and surgical masks for hospitals, please use cloth masks instead."

They choice they made was to say, 'Hey, masks don't work. No need for one." Then, a month later say, "Hey, you know that thing we said about masks? Turns out you do actually need them and we lied to you. Oh, and N95s provide the best protection, followed by surgical masks and cloth masks and we think cloth masks should be fine for most daily uses when you can't be 6 ft apart."

There was no reason they couldn't have said cloth masks will work from the beginning.

They bungled their messaging up from the beginning. When you outright lie to people, you haven't started a foundation of trust. That is what I'm saying is dumb. If they would have gone with what I said in my first one of this post, I guarantee more than most American would have gone with cloth masks instead of N95s or surgical masks. Heck, N95s and surgical masks are in great supply and people still chose cloth masks over those.

Infection_Ag11 said:

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Beat40 said:

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Fitch said:

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They straight up lied or omitted to avoid a run on masks a la toilet paper back in March. When supplies were secured the message reversed. Damned either way, but doesn't make it right.

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Yup, they didn't treat people like adults and at least advise wearing cloth masks. Instead, they said no masks work. Dumb.

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To be fair, Americans have demonstrated little ability to behave like adults en masse in a very long time. It's difficult to fault policy makers from assuming that will continue, especially in a scenario where the predominant public emotions will be anger and fear.

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From the beginning, this has been a relationship between Dr. Fauci and the American people. They (Dr. Fauci and US Surgeon General) started that relationship out on a lie. That is not a good place to start no matter how you feel about the capacity for Americans to behave like adults. You face an uphill battle the rest of the way when you start out lying to someone.

Now, I think Dr. Fauci has operated with the best intention for the American people, so don't get me wrong there. I'm just criticizing the way they started out messaging to the American people.

B/CS Dreaming said:

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I found out yesterday that the son of a family friend who lives in Iowa passed away. 38 years old, healthy, and active with no known underlying conditions. His wife had a positive COVID test 5 days ago. He started to feel bad two days ago, went to get a COVID test that day (results still pending) and died in his sleep that night of heart failure.

Anecdotal cases shouldn't dictate public policy and we need to let our college-age and younger kids live their lives given the small risk for their age group. This was a wake up call for me to be more prudent in my personal choices, though.

God bless our healthcare workers and those working to develop treatments and a vaccine.

Be safe, y'all.

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Really sorry to hear that. My 44 year old sister is an obese former smoker with asthma and all she got was a headache. Her husband who was also a heavy smoker had a mild cough. They are both pretty unhealthy with underlying risk factors and other than the loss of taste/smell they wouldn't have known they had it.

This is a weird disease for sure. I've heard of elderly couples where one person dies and the other has no symptoms.

My wife and I are militant about exercise, healthy eating and Dr. Revs supplement plan. Doing everything we can to boost our overall health.

B/CS Dreaming said:

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I found out yesterday that the son of a family friend who lives in Iowa passed away. 38 years old, healthy, and active with no known underlying conditions. His wife had a positive COVID test 5 days ago. He started to feel bad two days ago, went to get a COVID test that day (results still pending) and died in his sleep that night of heart failure.

Anecdotal cases shouldn't dictate public policy and we need to let our college-age and younger kids live their lives given the small risk for their age group. This was a wake up call for me to be more prudent in my personal choices, though.

God bless our healthcare workers and those working to develop treatments and a vaccine.

Be safe, y'all.

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I'm sorry for your loss.

Another part of the mental gymnastics was telling folks that their masks protect others but not themselves, immediately making anyone who does not wear a mask at the least a terrible person if not a 2nd degree murderer.

Then, when someone dies they say "wear a mask" as if this is the only way the afflicted would have picked it up.

Completely disingenuous based on scientific modeling and is psychological warfare.

My elderly parents wear n95s when going out to protect themselves, as should all high risk individuals. The psychological guilt trip warfare is counterproductive and harmful.

Capitol Ag said:

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culdeus said:

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It's crazy how the attitudes for this changed so quickly.

Went from people sort of caring, to people literally not giving a single crap.

I don't have any idea what a world looks like with full hospitals and this bearing down, I would hate to think we are denying care and I would hate to think a Dr. has to make a live/die call. What a mess.

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We don't know that they are having to make a live/die call at this point. It sounds like overall, the treatment currently given has reduced the likelihood of death significantly. Obviously, this is very regional and local the way things pop up. One area can be exploding and a close area near there can have no issues at all. Hopefully a vaccine is introduced soon enough to help those most at risk.

Good luck Doc. We are all thinking and praying for you and your staff.

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Really? Have you looked at the spikes across the entire country? It is not regional, it is national. People need to accept this is real and thank the doctors by being willing to change their life styles/wear masks and help contain the spread. Thanks isn't enough.

B/CS Dreaming said:

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Thanks, Marcus. This stuff sucks.

Aggie95 said:

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That's very strange. Curious on test results. 2 days would be about the quickest covid death I've heard of.

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Yeah...I thought the same. Maybe just a coincidence?

I was talking with a doc friend about it and they weren't surprised. Has anyone else heard of heart issues just a day after showing symptoms?

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Back in April my friend lost her 30 year old nurse daughter very quickly. She was a healthy marathon runner. Got sick and died in the ICU of heart complications associated with COVID. It has framed they way I look at this pandemic. Little respect for those who pretend it's nothing.

bay fan said:

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B/CS Dreaming said:

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Thanks, Marcus. This stuff sucks.

Aggie95 said:

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That's very strange. Curious on test results. 2 days would be about the quickest covid death I've heard of.

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Yeah...I thought the same. Maybe just a coincidence?

I was talking with a doc friend about it and they weren't surprised. Has anyone else heard of heart issues just a day after showing symptoms?

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Back in April my friend lost her 30 year old nurse daughter very quickly. She was a healthy marathon runner. Got sick and died in the ICU of heart complications associated with COVID. It has framed they way I look at this pandemic. Little respect for those who pretend it's nothing.

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Using outliers to set your frame of reference for an event is idiotic.

The_Fox said:

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bay fan said:

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B/CS Dreaming said:

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Thanks, Marcus. This stuff sucks.

Aggie95 said:

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That's very strange. Curious on test results. 2 days would be about the quickest covid death I've heard of.

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Yeah...I thought the same. Maybe just a coincidence?

I was talking with a doc friend about it and they weren't surprised. Has anyone else heard of heart issues just a day after showing symptoms?

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Back in April my friend lost her 30 year old nurse daughter very quickly. She was a healthy marathon runner. Got sick and died in the ICU of heart complications associated with COVID. It has framed they way I look at this pandemic. Little respect for those who pretend it's nothing.

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Using outliers to set your frame of reference for an event is idiotic.

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To each their own. Watching a friend ache in pain, probably for the rest of her life has made me completely willing to do anything I can to prevent anyone else from going through that type of pain. Call it idiotic if you want but I am willing to wear a mask, distance, cook at home until a vaccine is available, for people I know, people I don't know and everyone in the medical profession. If you dismiss the data you don't like rather then learn from it you simply contribute to the problem.

bay fan said:

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The_Fox said:

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bay fan said:

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B/CS Dreaming said:

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Thanks, Marcus. This stuff sucks.

Aggie95 said:

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That's very strange. Curious on test results. 2 days would be about the quickest covid death I've heard of.

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Yeah...I thought the same. Maybe just a coincidence?

I was talking with a doc friend about it and they weren't surprised. Has anyone else heard of heart issues just a day after showing symptoms?

---

Back in April my friend lost her 30 year old nurse daughter very quickly. She was a healthy marathon runner. Got sick and died in the ICU of heart complications associated with COVID. It has framed they way I look at this pandemic. Little respect for those who pretend it's nothing.

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Using outliers to set your frame of reference for an event is idiotic.

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To each their own. Watching a friend ache in pain, probably for the rest of her life has made me completely willing to do anything I can to prevent anyone else from going through that type of pain. Call it idiotic if you want but I am willing to wear a mask, distance, cook at home until a vaccine is available, for people I know, people I don't know and everyone in the medical profession. If you dismiss the data you don't like rather then learn from it you simply contribute to the problem.

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I make risk assessments based on facts not feelings derived from singular anecdotal experiences.

I have engaged in activities that were truly dangerous, and being exposed to COVID is not one of them. A 99.95 chance of survival. OMG it's going to get us all!

there's a spectrum between asymptomatic and death.

Influenza has a similar mortality, but I get my flu shot and take extra precautions in season to avoid being bedridden for 4 days.

Covid does have longer term impacts as well.

Is risk low, sure... make your own tradeoff decision.

First off let me say I appreciate and respect every medical person on this thread and this board. You come here and share your honest experiences, knowledge and opinions. I look to your words as guidance on the level of concern and the type of behavior I should exercise. Thank you for helping us all be more aware of what is happening with this virus in the real world. Heck, the information on how weight effects outcome influenced me to start running and eventually running more than 4 miles per day for 125 straight days and reducing my weight 25 pounds and reducing my BMI from the moderate to the low range.

When I was a teenager my friends dad had a saying you've probably all heard at one time. He said, "I'll believe anything you say until you lie to me one time."

I'm nearly 59. I came of age in the Johnson, Nixon, Carter years. It was a time when our country shifted from the high trust of government coming out of WWII and all we accomplished as a nation to a nation that distrusted government almost completely due to the lies of Watergate, the Vietnam war effort and economic failures under Carter. I don't think our country will ever trust government again primarily because of the outright lies of the leadership of that time.

I believe the medical and scientific communities will now experience that same shift in loss of trust by many and maybe eventually by the majority. There has been enough disinformation, mistaken decisions and outright failure by the medical science leadership that I personally will never be able to wholeheartedly trust doctors again.

My mother passed away October 18th and was confined in a nursing home for the past year. She also had several hospital stays during that period and the final three weeks of her life. She was 84 had dementia, renal failure, diabetes and high blood pressure. She was going to die regardless. Three weeks before her final hospital stay she tested positive for Covid on two PCR test and was transferred to another facility for two weeks. She made it through that with some substandard hygienic care and eventually achieved three negative tests to be clear of the virus.

One to two weeks into her required reentry quarantine for her permanent nursing home she experienced a blood infection, most likely a UTI, that put her back in the hospital where an initial test showed she was negative for the virus. Two days later another test said she was positive. I doubted the validity of the positive test.

For one day prior to the positive test my dad was able to be with my mother in the hospital for the first time in 7 months. He spent about four hours with her. Following the positive test result he was no longer able to be with her. For the next two weeks no additional Covid test were performed. Her other physical issues were more concerning. Finally she was transferred to an extended care hospital under the same doctors' care. I told my sister who was communicating with the doctors for my dad to insist on another Covid test. I knew she soon needed to go on hospice and I wanted the flexibility to move her to a place we could be with her before she passed.

Two days later a test was performed and it came back negative and of course a second test was to be done. Two days later without a test result we were told her second swab was never sent so another test would have to be performed. There was no excuse for that happening and it only prolonged her stay without family contact. The second test was finally performed and she was of course negative as I suspect she was the entire hospital stay because I believe the one positive test was a false positive.

Two days later we finally were able to transfer her to a nice hospice facility where we could all go see her. She had badly blistered lips and looked very bad. The hospice workers bathed her, probably for the first time in three weeks, and began to treat her blistered lips and make her comfortable. One day later God welcomed her to her heavenly home and I was thankful for that gift.

This experience added to my growing mistrust of doctors. The extended care facility wanted her to go on hospice at their facility of which I suspect her doctors are invested owners. I believe her poor condition was exasperated due to a lack of proper care. There was no reason she should have had the blisters on her lips. In 12 hours the hospice workers were able to make substantial improvements even with her being in the dying process. I believe the reluctance to perform Covid tests was a way to control access to her and keep her in their facility. There was no reason to not perform additional tests on a patient that had been negative on three consecutive PCR tests and one rapid test followed by one positive test.

This failure prevented my dad from having the opportunity to observe her condition and care until she was in such bad condition. If the tests had been performed sooner, she could have transferred to the better hospice facility and maybe we could have had two or three days with her before she died and more family could have come to see her. That would not have changed that she was going to die and needed to be allowed to die. I fully believe that. But it could have made her dying more comfortable for her and for my dad.

My trust in the medical and community as a whole has been shot. I will be one who ask more questions, do my own research and challenge doctors in the future. This is a result of the medical and scientific leadership over the past year and my own personal experiences.

Again, I respect and appreciate every doctor on this board and wish you folks would have been in charge of my mother's care and decisions made by the medical leadership. But remember what my friend's dad said, "I'll believe anything you say until you lie to me one time."

bay fan said:

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The_Fox said:

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bay fan said:

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B/CS Dreaming said:

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Thanks, Marcus. This stuff sucks.

Aggie95 said:

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That's very strange. Curious on test results. 2 days would be about the quickest covid death I've heard of.

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Yeah...I thought the same. Maybe just a coincidence?

I was talking with a doc friend about it and they weren't surprised. Has anyone else heard of heart issues just a day after showing symptoms?

---

Back in April my friend lost her 30 year old nurse daughter very quickly. She was a healthy marathon runner. Got sick and died in the ICU of heart complications associated with COVID. It has framed they way I look at this pandemic. Little respect for those who pretend it's nothing.

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Using outliers to set your frame of reference for an event is idiotic.

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To each their own. Watching a friend ache in pain, probably for the rest of her life has made me completely willing to do anything I can to prevent anyone else from going through that type of pain. Call it idiotic if you want but I am willing to wear a mask, distance, cook at home until a vaccine is available, for people I know, people I don't know and everyone in the medical profession. If you dismiss the data you don't like rather then learn from it you simply contribute to the problem.

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I'm willing to wear a mask (and do) but don't support another lockdown. I think people grossly underestimate the long term impact that has on our society and the other short term sociological impacts (including on health).

I'm where you are about the medical profession/process, and have been since before Covid. The medical process has lost the ability to include honesty and common sense with the science.

MaxPower said:

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bay fan said:

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The_Fox said:

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bay fan said:

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B/CS Dreaming said:

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Thanks, Marcus. This stuff sucks.

Aggie95 said:

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That's very strange. Curious on test results. 2 days would be about the quickest covid death I've heard of.

---

Yeah...I thought the same. Maybe just a coincidence?

I was talking with a doc friend about it and they weren't surprised. Has anyone else heard of heart issues just a day after showing symptoms?

---

Back in April my friend lost her 30 year old nurse daughter very quickly. She was a healthy marathon runner. Got sick and died in the ICU of heart complications associated with COVID. It has framed they way I look at this pandemic. Little respect for those who pretend it's nothing.

---

Using outliers to set your frame of reference for an event is idiotic.

---

To each their own. Watching a friend ache in pain, probably for the rest of her life has made me completely willing to do anything I can to prevent anyone else from going through that type of pain. Call it idiotic if you want but I am willing to wear a mask, distance, cook at home until a vaccine is available, for people I know, people I don't know and everyone in the medical profession. If you dismiss the data you don't like rather then learn from it you simply contribute to the problem.

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I'm willing to wear a mask (and do) but don't support another lockdown. I think people grossly underestimate the long term impact that has on our society and the other short term sociological impacts (including on health).

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Exactly this. And the pivot to long term consequences cannot be a reason to destroy the economy. That is nebulous and unquantifiable.

Memento Mori ags

People are going to die, manage risk accordingly. The people I really feel bad for are the docs. I'm out there living my life. I will not check myself into a hospital if I get bad. I have made my life decision and I will not burden a health system and a Doc for the choices I've made.

bay fan said:

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The_Fox said:

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bay fan said:

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B/CS Dreaming said:

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Thanks, Marcus. This stuff sucks.

Aggie95 said:

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That's very strange. Curious on test results. 2 days would be about the quickest covid death I've heard of.

---

Yeah...I thought the same. Maybe just a coincidence?

I was talking with a doc friend about it and they weren't surprised. Has anyone else heard of heart issues just a day after showing symptoms?

---

Back in April my friend lost her 30 year old nurse daughter very quickly. She was a healthy marathon runner. Got sick and died in the ICU of heart complications associated with COVID. It has framed they way I look at this pandemic. Little respect for those who pretend it's nothing.

---

Using outliers to set your frame of reference for an event is idiotic.

---

To each their own. Watching a friend ache in pain, probably for the rest of her life has made me completely willing to do anything I can to prevent anyone else from going through that type of pain. Call it idiotic if you want but I am willing to wear a mask, distance, cook at home until a vaccine is available, for people I know, people I don't know and everyone in the medical profession. If you dismiss the data you don't like rather then learn from it you simply contribute to the problem.

---

What about all the data related to impacts of lockdowns? Destruction of our economy, and the lasting financial harm on millions for potentially the rest of their lives? Plenty of data on that that's being dismissed. How about impact psychologically? Lots of data supporting we are creating depression and mental instability in significantly more people we are hoping to "save," many of them youth who will be struggling with this for years, if not a lifetime. What about suicides we're setting people up for? Hard to get data for that, but it's very real. Same with all the elderly who have simply given up and end up dying sooner than they would have, due to isolation and the feeling that their family gave up on them (this happened to my grandmother, she literally gave up on life from being locked away and feeling like her family forgot about her). But hey, they didn't die of covid, so that's a win, right? That said, at the end of the day, they certainly died from covid. Ironically, those deaths don't count in the statistics that are being thrown around. Mostly because using those deaths in the data actually supports NOT having a lockdown. If I were going to die within the next year, I'd rather spend the last weeks or months with people who I love than to be locked away like a dog in a cage, all for my own good.

I think it's a bit foolish to selectively choose the data, focusing only on those who are impacted directly from the virus (a stupidly small number) and completely ignoring all of the secondary destruction and harm we are leaving behind. How many lives are we ending, both literally and subjectively, to "save" just a few. As you said, if you "dismiss the data you don't like rather then learn from it you simply contribute to the problem." You are literally doing the same as what you accuse of others.

Lastly, keep in mind, we also have to factor in the nature of a virus, and that most of these people will likely still be exposed and infected sooner or later, and we haven't actually accomplished much of anything, despite all our efforts.

I tested positive this past Wednesday and symptoms started Monday or Tuesday with high fatigue. Today would be day 5-6 and so far I've experienced fatigue, fever, chills, and mild headache.

It sucks because I'm isolated while my wife, who is 15 weeks pregnant, cares for our two year old. She was exposed to me Monday and Tuesday when I believe symptoms started. I completely isolated to a single room on Wednesday.

To this point she says she has a stuffy nose but thinks it's a only a cold. So far, my breathing is perfectly fine with no drainage or runny nose at all. Praying my wife and son did not catch it.

gooberhead said:

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I'm where you are about the medical profession/process, and have been since before Covid. The medical process has lost the ability to include honesty and common sense with the science.

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Care to elaborate? Are you lumping all medicinal practice in when u say this? Cancer research and treatment, children's treatment, etc.?

There's something that always amuses me about people boasting that "I'm out there living my life!" while posting on an internet message forum.

Proposition Joe said:

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There's something that always amuses me about people boasting that "I'm out there living my life!" while posting on an internet message forum.

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They are so brave!

AgsMyDude said:

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Proposition Joe said:

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There's something that always amuses me about people boasting that "I'm out there living my life!" while posting on an internet message forum.

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They are so brave!

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Nothing about bravery dude, all life is a risk/reward calculation from deciding to have a 3rd piece of pie, to driving on 290 or taking a flight.

The_Fox said:

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bay fan said:

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The_Fox said:

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bay fan said:

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B/CS Dreaming said:

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Thanks, Marcus. This stuff sucks.

Aggie95 said:

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That's very strange. Curious on test results. 2 days would be about the quickest covid death I've heard of.

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Yeah...I thought the same. Maybe just a coincidence?

I was talking with a doc friend about it and they weren't surprised. Has anyone else heard of heart issues just a day after showing symptoms?

---

Back in April my friend lost her 30 year old nurse daughter very quickly. She was a healthy marathon runner. Got sick and died in the ICU of heart complications associated with COVID. It has framed they way I look at this pandemic. Little respect for those who pretend it's nothing.

---

Using outliers to set your frame of reference for an event is idiotic.

---

To each their own. Watching a friend ache in pain, probably for the rest of her life has made me completely willing to do anything I can to prevent anyone else from going through that type of pain. Call it idiotic if you want but I am willing to wear a mask, distance, cook at home until a vaccine is available, for people I know, people I don't know and everyone in the medical profession. If you dismiss the data you don't like rather then learn from it you simply contribute to the problem.

---

I make risk assessments based on facts not feelings derived from singular anecdotal experiences.

I have engaged in activities that were truly dangerous, and being exposed to COVID is not one of them. A 99.95 chance of survival. OMG it's going to get us all!

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You can make rational decisions without simultaneously being a hateful *******.

FalconAg06 said:

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AgsMyDude said:

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Proposition Joe said:

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There's something that always amuses me about people boasting that "I'm out there living my life!" while posting on an internet message forum.

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They are so brave!

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Nothing about bravery dude, all life is a risk/reward calculation from deciding to have a 3rd piece of pie, to driving on 290 or taking a flight.

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I mean don't get me wrong I have no problems at all with people deciding to go out there and take on greater amount of risk (or perceived risk). If you want to go to concerts/sports/protests/raves/whatever I am all about making that person choice.

But silly to act like people who are taking a few more precautions aren't "living their life".

We're all (or most of us) college educated people... I doubt many have become complete lock-in hermits, likewise I doubt many are out there breathing in every person's face and laughing.

Well, I have nearly lost my wife twice in 6 months due to pulmonary embolisms. In early March, they didn't know the blood clot issue. The day we walked out of the hospital the first time was the day the hospital was initiating Covid procedures. In hindsight, she has all the classic symptoms about a week before. Spent 6 months on blood thinner, one month to the day after coming off blood thinner, we are back in the ER (thanks to 3 Aggie medical professionals). Massive PE that may have also triggered a mild heart attack. My wife is 46, and has been a workout fiend for as long has I have known her. Her pulmonologist said has several patients that are having long long lasting blood clot issues. She is likely on blood thinners for life.

My office mate thought he had allergies on the 5th. On the 6th he felt worse, and decided to get tested out of "an abundance of caution". On the 8th, he got positive test back. He has gotten progressively worse, and had a virtual doctors visit this morning. He was classified this morning as a long hauler, and told to plan on being out of action for up to 6 weeks.