Blows to sit in TD and watch blow u jr. Win two 1-0 games knowing if we play clean like them we win 1-0 against PB last Sunday

Carry on your fair /foul discussion

You don't know the half of it.

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the ball that started all of this yesterday kicked up no chalk. Was called foul, then, the first ever reviewed play in the CWS overturned a good call.

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Did not see it. So what was the basis for calling it fair?

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It appeared to catch the edge of the foul line. I don't know if it "kicked up chalk" or not but video from the opposite side of the field shows the ball cutting into the view of the foul line which means part of the ball was in fair territory. If the ball was foul, it could not block the view of the foul line from a camera from the other side of the field.

Again, what TexasRebel doesn't understand or more likely is just in denial of is that fair territory extends in a plane upwards in infinity.

You can split hairs, or atoms, about whether the ball physically touched this spot on the field or not, but that's not the meaning of the rule.

Again. I know exactly how you're mistaking what you understand to be the rules for what the rules actually are. Fair territory is not a volume like the strike zone, but surfaces.

If the ball is hanging over the line, but first contacts foul territory beyond 1st or 3rd base it is a foul ball. Which part of this don't you understand?

It's like that "tie goes to the runner" crap. People believe that it is a rule, but it is not.

It's a rare event that people try -incorrectly at that- to justify. The umpire on the field got the call correct. He called it as he saw it because no chalk was kicked up. No chalk was kicked up because the ball did not contact fair territory, first or at all.

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If it is clear that the lace hits first... It counts. That would never be clear with existing tech.

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That wasn't the question. The question was if the lace and the white leather hit simultaneously, what would you call it?

Fair or foul?

if you want to get into the quantum level, it's impossible.

I'm just fine with the umpire calling it foul, and I'm fine with the overturn, based upon the photographic evidence. I'm also curious to know the umpires opinion of the over rule. Is that even known? I'd bet he's okay with it too. Don't get no closer!

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Again. I know exactly how you're mistaking what you understand to be the rules for what the rules actually are. Fair territory is not a volume like the strike zone, but surfaces.

If the ball is hanging over the line, but first contacts foul territory beyond 1st or 3rd base it is a foul ball. Which part of this don't you understand?

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MLB's definition of "Fair Territory, at page 143 of the Official Rules.

"FAIR TERRITORY is that part of the playing field within, and including the first base and third base lines, from home base to the bottom of the playing field fence and perpendicularly upwards. All foul lines are in fair territory."

NCAA's definition of "Fair Territory", at page 28 of the Rulebook.

"Fair Territory SECTION 28. That part of the playing field within and including the first- and third-base lines from home plate to the bottom of the playing-field fence and perpendicularly upwards. Both foul lines are in fair territory."


And with that in mind, then consider the rule about when a fielder catches a ball that is over foul territory while the fielder's feet at clearly in fair territory...the correct ruling: FOUL BALL.

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if you want to get into the quantum level, it's impossible.

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Hey now, I'm not the one talking about how a sphere makes initial contact with a singular point...

...if that's the lecture topic of the day, professor, then don't dodge your student's questions.

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I'm just fine with the umpire calling it foul, and I'm fine with the overturn, based upon the photographic evidence. I'm also curious to know the umpires opinion of the over rule. Is that even known? I'd bet he's okay with it too. Don't get no closer!

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Here's the MLB definition of "fair ball", as you'll see, it includes a lot of language of "over", "in flight", etc. that touches on the argument we've been having.

"A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base, or that touches first, second or third base, or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base, or that, while on or over fair territory touches the person of an umpire or player, or that, while over fair territory, passes out of the playing field in flight. A fair fly shall be judged according to the relative position of the ball and the foul line, including the foul pole, and not as to whether the fielder is on fair or foul territory at the time he touches the ball."



Its the same rules as tennis, and in or out, fair or foul, is going to be judged basically by the circumference of the ball---we're not trying to look and see which atom of the baseball touched fair or foul first, or whether the tennis ball flattened enough as to physically contact the chalk line...we're not and that's never been nor ever will be the meaning of the rule.

TexasRebel's self-admitted mission is to show he's smarter than the rest of us, but all he's done is talked himself into an incorrect, unworkable set of rules.

Did you read any of what you posted? First, MLB rule book doesn't apply in this case as the rules are spelled out in the NCAA Book.

Second, they all agree with what I'm saying and don't help your case. For one, you've bolded sentences that do not pertain to the situation.

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again, the definition from the NCAA rule book for 2016

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Fair Territory SECTION 28. That part of the playing field within and including the first- and third-base lines from home plate to the bottom of the playing-field fence and perpendicularly upwards. Both foul lines are in fair territory.

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If you want to go strictly by this, a home run is not a fair ball. Notice that the foul poles are not in this definition of fair territory as they are behind the fence.

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First, that's not the definition of a "fair ball", so don't go by that when determining a fair ball.

And I think you're wrong here, anyways. The foul pole is part of that perpendicular plane the rule is referencing. It, although not its primary purpose, marks the edge of the "playing field".

And the answer was in the question you asked. Which hits first and where? Lace or leather?

Simpler, does it kick chalk up or not?

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And the answer was in the question you asked. Which hits first and where? Lace or leather?

Simpler, does it kick chalk up or not?

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Do you know what the word "simultaneously" means?

Go grab a coffee mug, and picture the handle as an overgrown lace. Now, turn the coffee mug on its side and put it on a flat surface. You'll its touching two spots simultaneously.


(Simultaneously means at the some moment.)

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And the answer was in the question you asked. Which hits first and where? Lace or leather?

Simpler, does it kick chalk up or not?

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"Kicking up chalk" is a euphemism for touching chalk. It needn't actually kick it up, so long as it touches it. It's splitting hairs, but still...

Go back further in the thread for the definition of a foul ball... Or just read your own quote of the definition of a fair ball they are opposites.

A fair ball is a batted ball that... first contacts fair territory.

No. The foul poles are not at the surface that determines a home run, but behind it as the surface extends vertically from the base of the outfield fence. The poles are behind the fence and will indicate a ball that left the field of play in fair territory.

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Did you read any of what you posted? First, MLB rule book doesn't apply in this case as the rules are spelled out in the NCAA Book.

Second, they all agree with what I'm saying and don't help your case. For one, you've bolded sentences that do not pertain to the situation.

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I didn't say it clearly addressed our discussion, you missed my pun! I said it "touches" on our discussion.

Anyways, NCAA rulebook linked above...here is a portion of the language, and you'll see its mostly a word-for word transcription of the MLB rule...

"Fair Ball SECTION 27. A legally batted ball that settles on or over fair territory (see 7-6-a-e): a. Settles on fair territory between home plate and first or third bases; b. Bounds past first or third base on or over fair territory; c. First touches fair territory beyond first or third base, including the foul pole; or d. First touches a player, umpire or any piece of equipment while over fair territory. A batted ball that hits the rubber and rebounds to foul territory between first and home or third and home is a foul ball."

The ball can touch plenty of things simultaneously. Which did it contact first?

In your example the lace and the leather would be less than 1/4" apart. If one hits chalk it'll be obvious.

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Go back further in the thread for the definition of a foul ball... Or just read your own quote of the definition of a fair ball they are opposites.

A fair ball is a batted ball that... first contacts fair territory.

No. The foul poles are not at the surface that determines a home run, but behind it as the surface extends vertically from the base of the outfield fence. The poles are behind the fence and will indicate a ball that left the field of play in fair territory.

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I didn't say the foul pole is the surface that determines a home run.

(Although it does determines home runs as far as it the portion of the pole above the outfield wall. A ball that hits the foul pole above the top of the fence will be a home run.)

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"Fair Ball SECTION 27. A legally batted ball that settles on or over fair territory (see 7-6-a-e): a. Settles on fair territory between home plate and first or third bases; b. Bounds past first or third base on or over fair territory; c. First touches fair territory beyond first or third base, including the foul pole; or d. First touches a player, umpire or any piece of equipment while over fair territory. A batted ball that hits the rubber and rebounds to foul territory between first and home or third and home is a foul ball."

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That's the one...

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The ball can touch plenty of things simultaneously. Which did it contact first?

In your example the lace and the leather would be less than 1/4" apart. If one hits chalk it'll be obvious.

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Neither hit first because they contacted the ground simultaneously.

Are you serious, Clark?

Kind of like a tie goes to the runner?

Nothing ever happens at the same time.

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"Fair Ball SECTION 27. A legally batted ball that settles on or over fair territory (see 7-6-a-e): a. Settles on fair territory between home plate and first or third bases; b. Bounds past first or third base on or over fair territory; c. First touches fair territory beyond first or third base, including the foul pole; or d. First touches a player, umpire or any piece of equipment while over fair territory. A batted ball that hits the rubber and rebounds to foul territory between first and home or third and home is a foul ball."

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That's the one...

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Yes, it is.

The discussion is what "touching" means.

***Sigh***

Go ahead and look up the definition for foul ball now. It's not ambiguous.

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Kind of like a tie goes to the runner?

Nothing ever happens at the same time.

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As the person who earlier said he hopes to see a ball simultaneously contact the foul pole and outfield wall, I'm starting to question your hopes and dreams...

You were the one going to the quantum level and trying to treat a baseball as an imperfect sphere. I also will retract that statement with the realization that the foul poles are not within fair territory by the definition of fair territory. If a ball lands such that it contacts the top of the fence in foul territory and the foul pole in such a manner that you can't tell which one hit first... The ball left the field of play in foul territory.

I don't want to take it to a quantum level. It's a question stemming from your assertion of the rule.

And a sphere can absolutely make intitial contact with two or more surfaces simultaneously.

Also, to help you get through the day, "tie goes to the runner" is a manner of explaining the rule which is that the runner is safe unless he is beat to the base. Thus, when the events happen at the same time, a "tie", the runner is safe.

And yep, a tie can happen. They're two separate events which can happen simultaneity as the infinite number of things happening in this world that are happening simultaneously right now as sure as you're heart is pumping blood through your body and your eyes are moving from keyboard to screen at the same you type a message for this thread.

And no two of them happen at the exact same time.

Are you familiar with infinitesimal as it pertains to both time and space?

You think no two events in the world can take place at the same time?

The spirit and point and meaning and practice of the rule is that when the baseball hits the ground, if any part of it is in fair territory, it's a fair ball.

It's the same as tennis, it's the same as soccer.

And if you're determined to get into the nitty gritty of the text of the rules, no where does it say a ball that is close is to be rules foul of no chalk is kicked up.

That's your own rule, your own requirement.

No the spirit and meaning of the rule is to rule the ball fair or foul based on where it hits first. Exactly as the rules state. I didn't make any of this up.

Chalk is simply the indicator. As in if there wasn't any chalk on the ball it could not have touched the line made of chalk. That's why it is chalk, not paint.

Soccer, hockey, football and basketball aren't even analogous as they don't take the measurement at a point in time. They look at if an event happens at all (does the player touch out of bounds?).

Tennis uses clay displacement to judge impacts, but I'm not familiar with the verbiage of the in/out rules.

Say a guy bunts a ball and the defense hopes to let it roll foul and it stops right on the edge of fair and foul territory.

An umpire isn't going to get on his hands and knees and look to see which particular point of the ball is touching and where it's touching.

He'll stand above it and if any of it appears to be within the fair territory, the ball is fair.

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...if any part of it is in fair territory, it's a fair ball.

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This is the part of the rule you made up. It does not exist.

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Say a guy bunts a ball and the defense hopes to let it roll foul and it stops right on the edge of fair and foul territory.

An umpire isn't going to get on his hands and knees and look to see which particular point of the ball is touching and where it's touching.

He'll stand above it and if any of it appears to be within the fair territory, the ball is fair.

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That's a different rule. In this case if the ball comes to rest over fair territory before crossing 1st or 3rd it is fair. See the rule 2011 quoted above. His bolding pertains.