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she'll likely have some helpful suggestions of where I can put it

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Congrats

Yeah, it's too early to ship to Chicagio too. Today's shipment was a bunch of stuff from Last Bottle. It shipped refrigerated to UPS and I went and picked it up so it never sat on a hot truck.Everything else is slated to come in late October or November.

My incoming haul pales in comparison to those listed above, but I am excited about it! I have some new stuff from Realm, Pott, Myriad, Rivers-Marie, and Sanguis. I have some older stuff coming too, including several 2010-12 Napa cabs, some 98 and 09 Sauternes, some 2015 margaux, and a few grand cru champs,

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My incoming haul pales in comparison to those listed above,

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I don't think of this as measuring. It's like Christmas when you were a kid and immediately got with your friends to talk about presents. It's Christmas in October (and March for the spring allocations)!

For me, I like seeing what people are buying (and what I may be missing!)

Happy drinking to all

I was successfully trimming down my wine budget (Ironman Training is expensive, also getting close to pull the trigger on a new house) so my incoming haul is just a couple Realm and Myriad bottles. Then we went to Australia and I now have 3 cases on the way......

Ironman? You mean you're exercising...for fun???? Crazy...

As for my pending deliveries:

Ridge
Myriad
SQN
Piper
Rivers Marie
Faethm
Realm
Pott
Salon
Cristal
MacDonald
Detert

"MacDonald"

I'm jealous. Still waiting.

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It's like Christmas when you were a kid and immediately got with your friends to talk about presents. It's Christmas in October

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Forgot the stuff coming from "a guy I know"

'93, '94, '96 Ch Leoville Barton
'93 Ch Talbot
'83 Ch Canon (2)
'82 Montrolse
'89 Magdelaine
'17 Maybach Materium

I am out of room and more bottles are on the way. At my last party several people asked when I was going to build a wine cellar. I want to see what design BSD comes up with.

Pisoni Estate allocation just got emailed.

Austintm said:

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"MacDonald"

I'm jealous. Still waiting.

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Was in Napa about two weeks ago with another couple. They went out a day early. While I'm getting on a plane for San Fran, he sends me a picture of him drinking MACDONALD with Alex MacDonald at their house. They then spent the afternoon with Nigel Kinsman. I was not pleased.

Ouch!

The best part of hanging out with Alex is getting to play with their dog, Honeybee. We always take her treats and walk the vineyard with her.

Ok, so the best part is the wine but Honeybee is a close second!

This was posted on berserkers. It's a really good read on the history of To Kalon.

https://www.guildsomm.com/public_content/features/articles/b/stamp/posts/the-true-story-of-to-kalon-vineyard

cecil77 said:

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My incoming haul pales in comparison to those listed above,

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I was referring to the volume of what I have coming in, but if size doesn't matter then I guess I am in good shape!

JCA1 said:

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Austintm said:

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"MacDonald"

I'm jealous. Still waiting.

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Was in Napa about two weeks ago with another couple. They went out a day early. While I'm getting on a plane for San Fran, he sends me a picture of him drinking MACDONALD with Alex MacDonald at their house. They then spent the afternoon with Nigel Kinsman. I was not pleased.

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We've done the vineyard tour and tasting with Alex, who is a great guy, but still on the waiting list...

I wonder if MacDonald will ever discontinue sales of their fruit to Mondavi and use it in their own wine. It would probably double the amount available to mailing list customers, at least. With some of the pushback that Mondavi gives them on the To Kalon name, I wonder if there will ever be a point where they say screw this! Or will they keep a long honored deal going to keep things diversified. Just thinking out loud here. I have never discussed this with them and probably never will unless they bring it up.

BSD said:

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I wonder if MacDonald will ever discontinue sales of their fruit to Mondavi and use it in their own wine. It would probably double the amount available to mailing list customers, at least. With some of the pushback that Mondavi gives them on the To Kalon name, I wonder if there will ever be a point where they say screw this! Or will they keep a long honored deal going to keep things diversified. Just thinking out loud here. I have never discussed this with them and probably never will unless they bring it up.

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Maybe I dreamed it since I'm on the wait list as well, but I think I read somewhere that they have some leases with Mondavi expiring soon and the expectation is those grapes will be folded into MACDONALD.

JCA1 said:

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MooreTrucker said:

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htxag09 said:

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I was successfully trimming down my wine budget (Ironman Training is expensive, also getting close to pull the trigger on a new house) so my incoming haul is just a couple Realm and Myriad bottles. Then we went to Australia and I now have 3 cases on the way......

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How can Ironman Training be expensive? You just run a lot (cheap), ride a lot (not terribly expensive), and swim a lot in the nearest lake (basically free).

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Probably all the nipple band-aids.

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And the Spandex

BSD said:

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I wonder if MacDonald will ever discontinue sales of their fruit to Mondavi and use it in their own wine. It would probably double the amount available to mailing list customers, at least. With some of the pushback that Mondavi gives them on the To Kalon name, I wonder if there will ever be a point where they say screw this! Or will they keep a long honored deal going to keep things diversified. Just thinking out loud here. I have never discussed this with them and probably never will unless they bring it up.

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Maybe. A couple of things to think about:

1. Since Constellation now owns Mondavi, the long-standing family ties aren't the same

2. There is an ongoing fight over the use of the "To Kalon" name/brand, with Constellation trying to block anyone else from using it. MacDonald has stayed out, but Constellation is fighting some boundary designations that MacDonald is pushing, which is costing them money. Here's a link to a discussion about the issues from Roy Piper:

https://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=163501

And I know my rants get old, but reading that is just one more nail in the coffin for the increasingly nebulous "terroir". If it were that clear, there'd be no disputes, the boundaries would be obvious, and since you can't own the rights to a particular type of dirt, copyrights would be moot. This happens in Bordeaux. If Chateau Lafite purchases additional vineyard line it automatically becomes a "first growth" vineyard.

I think you and I define terroir differently. But I think we both agree that winemaking and vineyard management is huge in the process.

Also, aren't only the first wines of 5 chateaus considered first growth? If they purchase a vineyard that goes into that wine, then it is a first growth vineyard from what I remember. If it goes into the second wine, it's a lower classification?

1. I thought about that as well. That's kind of what kicked off my thinking about this years ago.

2. I saw Roy's post last night but it was late. And Roy isn't the type of person to throw out just thought. So I'll be reading it later.

I don't believe the first/second labels are by vineyard. I think wines are classified/declassified each vintage on a quality basis. I don't know that vineyard is part of that. But the point is that if Lafite buys a vineyard and uses it in Ch Lafite, that vineyard becomes a first growth vineyard.

And EVERYONE defines "terroir" differently! That's the f-ing point. Once human decisions enter the definition, as they've had to since the soil/climate distinctions have pretty much been proven to be bunk on a plant physiology basis, the word "terroir" just becomes a quasi-religious term used because it's romantic and mystical, but primarily (as the To Kalon discussion illustrate) "terroir" is a marketing term! And, indeed, the development/popularization of the word by the French 70-ish years ago was for marketing purposes.

Even as you mentioned, if "vineyard management" is a part of "terroir" then it's essentially useless. When you include "winemaking" which is removed from the vineyard, then it's comically meaningless.

But alas, it (terroir) has every distinguishing characteristic of a religious belief, so most believers remain unconvinced.

I guess I triggered you. Sorry. I'll back away...Homer style.

Old farts don't get "triggered" just shake our fists at clouds and run children off our yards.

More and more you read and the word is in flux. Years ago it was literally "dirt and climate". It has morphed into "the way we make wine using this vineyard". The biggest missing piece that is only now being considered as it should are clonal differences, which IMO covers much of what people have long attributed to vineyard differences.

cecil77 said:

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Old farts don't get "triggered" just shake our fists at clouds and run children off our yards.

More and more you read and the word is in flux. Years ago it was literally "dirt and climate". It has morphed into "the way we make wine using this vineyard". The biggest missing piece that is only now being considered as it should are clonal differences, which IMO covers much of what people have long attributed to vineyard differences.

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So if you were able to take the same vines, place one group in, say, Howell Mountain, one in the Valley floor, one in the Texas High Plains, and one in Washington, harvest the fruit when ripe (which is going to vary), use the same winemaker, use the same methodology, same steel, then French oak barrels from the same maker, age each 21 months in oak, bottle in the same bottles and leave in the bottle the same amount of time, all would taste the same?

Not happening.

Austintm said:

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cecil77 said:

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Old farts don't get "triggered" just shake our fists at clouds and run children off our yards.

More and more you read and the word is in flux. Years ago it was literally "dirt and climate". It has morphed into "the way we make wine using this vineyard". The biggest missing piece that is only now being considered as it should are clonal differences, which IMO covers much of what people have long attributed to vineyard differences.

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So if you were able to take the same vines, place one group in, say, Howell Mountain, one in the Valley floor, one in the Texas High Plains, and one in Washington, harvest the fruit when ripe (which is going to vary), use the same winemaker, use the same methodology, same steel, then French oak barrels from the same maker, age each 21 months in oak, bottle in the same bottles and leave in the bottle the same amount of time, all would taste the same?

Not happening.

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Assuming the same clones, and appropriate crop loads (crucial) for the growing conditions. (and ultimately identical degree days and sun hours, but that changes vintage to vintage no matter where you are) Yup, happening. No, not identical wines, but more the same than if you planted different clones of the same varieties and conducted the same experiment. Happens all over the world. Right now. I know it's heretical and many adherents to to conventional "religion" of wine will never accept. And I understand that, part of the allure of wine is the romance and mysticism that the conventional notions of soil and climate offer. However, more and more, science and technology are proving those notions irrelevant.

That doesn't mean that you can farm grapes anywhere. No, it's farming. You've got to be able to farm the vine. But given a relatively broad range of parameters, humans can farm to accomodate more than one may think. Certainly the physical properties of the soil will alter farming, and sand that can't retain any water or clay that can't drain any won't work. However the chemical composition of the soil is irrelevant to grape flavor. Too much humidity (think Gulf Coast), the mold, mildew problems are too severe. But those are farming issues, not grape flavor issues. If you can farm the clone properly for the conditions it's growing in, and alter crop yields so that phenolic ripeness paces sugar ripeness, the phenolics that the clone is genetically programmed to create will be created. And, there's the appropriate canopy management, leaf pulling schedule and more. The differences in the locations the grapes are grown are minimal to none.

That being said, not two wines are EVER identical, even if they're made from adjacent vines in the same vineyard. And I have no doubt that you can taste the differences in wines grown in different places. However, it's really a case of "correlation doesn't imply causation". Until clonal differences are identified (and current technology doesn't easily allow clones to be back identified) there's no way to be assured that location is crucial.

I enjoy these discussions, and I understand that I'm currently in the minority in the wine world. Not alone, though.

Anyways...

I got my physical MacDonald letter today (copied this one from WB, though). It seems they are even less happy at Constellation than what Roy led me to believe.

I can't disagree with you more strongly. I agree that soil conditions are overrated, but the rate at which the grapes ripen (depends heavily on temperature, temperature variations, sun, etc.), moisture, etc. directly affect the fruit. And different fruit = different taste.

Under your theory, for example, wine made from valley floor fruit in 2011(which was heavily affected by frost, cold weather and late heavy rain) would taste the same as wine made from 2011 High Plains fruit 9or Howell Mountain, etc), assuming constants in the other items.

But it's like knowing how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop. The world may never know.

Ifs almost like Alex is reading this thread.....honeybee, terroir...

https://instagr.am/p/B2U5f_lnQdL

Yeah, unless something changes, I don't see the MacDonald brothers selling to Constellation any longer than they are legally required to. Wonder how long the lease is for. Is there a "typical" lease length in these things?

This sounds like a chicken fajita food board type argument.