JCA1 said:

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Yeah, unless something changes, I don't see the MacDonald brothers selling to Constellation any longer than they are legally required to. Wonder how long the lease is for. Is there a "typical" lease length in these things?

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752bro4 said:

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This sounds like a chicken fajita food board type argument.

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Please don't start that one...

Austintm said:

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I can't disagree with you more strongly. I agree that soil conditions are overrated, but the rate at which the grapes ripen (depends heavily on temperature, temperature variations, sun, etc.), moisture, etc. directly affect the fruit. And different fruit = different taste.

Under your theory, for example, wine made from valley floor fruit in 2011(which was heavily affected by frost, cold weather and late heavy rain) would taste the same as wine made from 2011 High Plains fruit 9or Howell Mountain, etc), assuming constants in the other items.

But it's like knowing how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop. The world may never know.

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I suspect if we had the opportunity to discuss this over a nice bottle, you'd find that we agree more than you think. I agree 100% that it's all about the rate at which a particular clone ripens, but humans can intervene to a great extent. And your second paragraph kinda makes my point, and no my theory (it's not "mine") doesn't say anything of the sort, and that's on me if it wasn't clear. The same location i.e. "terroir" produced very different wines because they were grown under differing conditions, variables that occur every year, even on the same site.

I say that wines from differing places (i.e. "terroirs") can be similar, you counter that wines from the same location (i.e. "terroir") can be very different in different vintages. I believe both of those statements. In a way that makes the very point that location, ie. terroir is overrated. And proper viticulture can overcome much (not all) variations in location and weather in a particular vintage, if the winegrower has the skill and chooses to do so.

We also agree that grape ripening is a very complex matrix which humans will never master, at least not until we can be Capt. Picard on the Enterprise and intone "61 Lafite, 62 degrees" and fill our glass from the replicator. The point is that a fixed location is a minor parameter in that matrix. Weather as you mentioned is the biggest one that humans can't control, but can mitigate with appropriate viticulture. Dan's equation is :

Precision Farming + Genetics = Great Wine.

Again, with in a range that can support farming the vine, location just doesn't alter the potential for a particular clone. Certainly location may require very different farming, the valley floor may be able to support 3.5 ton/acre crop loads in some years or, like in 2015 be 50-90% lower than that. The Texas Hill Country may be only able to support 2 tons/acre in a great year. So yeah, location can make a huge difference in farming, just not necessarily the resulting grapes.

And we really haven't discussed the clonal variations which spontaneously occur in vinefera vines, many of which will never be known.

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Apologies for the length, but one other thought. Perhaps in your original thought experiment - one that I use in presentations every week - maybe substitute "same phenolic level" for "same wine" (phenolic levels can be quantified and have been) and it's easier to consider. There's no guarantee that one of the locations you mention will produce higher quality wine than any other location every single year, or even most years. Yes, the variabilities in weather can be muted and constrained, but not eliminated altogether, hence vintage variability. So maybe just consider the variability in vintage at one location to be analogous to variability resulting from differing locations. And yes, we've got wine grown in Fredericksburg that can hang with any of the allocated wines mentioned this week at similar price points.

752bro4 said:

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This sounds like a chicken fajita food board type argument.

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Chickens don't have fajitas.

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Certainly the physical properties of the soil will alter farming, and sand that can't retain any water or clay that can't drain any won't work. However the chemical composition of the soil is irrelevant to grape flavor. Too much humidity (think Gulf Coast), the mold, mildew problems are too severe. But those are farming issues, not grape flavor issues.

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But aren't those physical properties - sand v. clay, humidity- part of terroir? It may be "farming issues" but still have an impact on the grapes that have to be accounted for.

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But aren't those physical properties - sand v. clay, humidity- part of terroir? It may be "farming issues" but still have an impact on the grapes that have to be accounted for.

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That's the point, they CAN be accounted for. The concept of terroir implies fixed parameters based upon location that can't be accounted for. E.g. "our terroir produces better grapes". If those fixed parameters can be accommodated via farming to produce the same grapes, then why even mention terroir? The issue is whether or not great grapes that accurately show varietal/clonal characteristics are dependent upon the location of the vineyard. They are not. They are not even necessarily reflective of the location if they are farmed appropriately.

The real issue is that the word (terroir) has morphed into pretty much whatever someone wants it to mean. Once human controllable factors were introduced into the definition, it lost any viticultural usefulness and became a romantic marketing item.

That's generally the way I'm understanding this theory. You can grow great Cabernet in Howell Mountain or the Texas Hill Country, but the hill country vineyard will need to be at a much lower yield than the Howell Mountain vineyard, maybe even to an extreme degree. Some other specific farming techniques also involved but I think that's the primary factor?

The clone selection isn't a big deal too.
I was skeptical of all this, until I sat with Dan and tried his Cabernets. I'm a believer now.

Since it's so mercilessly hot here, I'm going to the offsite wine storage this afternoon to take out the boxes labeled "2019" to bring home for the wine cooler. It's not likely she'll/we'll drink all of those this year but those are the ones that should be ready to go, and it'll clear room for fall shipments (were still busy with the 2018 boxes so we're almost a year behind). I'll spend some time in there to stay cool and move a few things around and hopefully won't fall of the ladder! That's what I'm looking forward to most about a home cellar: all of my wine at arms' length with no ladder to fall of, or worse, drop a nice crate of wine!

Edit: didn't happen. My son wanted to go to Top Golf and I couldn't say no. Maybe tomorrow afternoon!

Terroir like many other words in the wine business doesn't mean anything, ie Sustainable. These are marketing words to create a since of place.

To Kalon is viewed as the best because Mondavi was a hell of a sales person and he told and convinced everyone it was the best. BTW it's not the best vineyard site in Napa.

As someone who takes care of 400 acres of wine grapes, clones very much matter. For example I grow the following CS clones 4,6,7,8, 15,169,191,337, 412,685. Some of these are much higher in pyrazines, some are much higher in anthocyanins and some can produce more grapes than others( small yields don't make better wines UC Davis has proved this). We have planted a large selection to determine which ones work best for our programs, a BTG Cab, $45 Cab and a higher send $100 Cab. I prefer the ENTAV clones the 169,191, and 412. This is starting to be a trend in CA all of Dauo's new vineyards and most of Paso now is 412 since it has the highest phenolics and smallest berries.

UC Davis To Kalon Station has determined that clone 7 is the best all around clone for Napa.

Picture of this weeks SB harvest, Mt. Konocti in background

Just discovered this thread. Too much to look through the whole thing. Looking for opiniones on good cabs that are in the 15- 20 dollar range. Thanks

Aggie7156 said:

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Just discovered this thread. Too much to look through the whole thing. Looking for opiniones on good cabs that are in the 15- 20 dollar range. Thanks

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Tough range for good cabs. That said, try Josh Cellars and Hess Select. Also try Catena from Argentina (they make a cab and a Malbec for under $20).
Take a trip to Costco and see what they have usually have some decent California cabs and French Bordeaux in that range.

cecil77 said:

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Austintm said:

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cecil77 said:

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Old farts don't get "triggered" just shake our fists at clouds and run children off our yards.

More and more you read and the word is in flux. Years ago it was literally "dirt and climate". It has morphed into "the way we make wine using this vineyard". The biggest missing piece that is only now being considered as it should are clonal differences, which IMO covers much of what people have long attributed to vineyard differences.

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So if you were able to take the same vines, place one group in, say, Howell Mountain, one in the Valley floor, one in the Texas High Plains, and one in Washington, harvest the fruit when ripe (which is going to vary), use the same winemaker, use the same methodology, same steel, then French oak barrels from the same maker, age each 21 months in oak, bottle in the same bottles and leave in the bottle the same amount of time, all would taste the same?

Not happening.

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Assuming the same clones, and appropriate crop loads (crucial) for the growing conditions. (and ultimately identical degree days and sun hours, but that changes vintage to vintage no matter where you are) Yup, happening. No, not identical wines, but more the same than if you planted different clones of the same varieties and conducted the same experiment. Happens all over the world. Right now. I know it's heretical and many adherents to to conventional "religion" of wine will never accept. And I understand that, part of the allure of wine is the romance and mysticism that the conventional notions of soil and climate offer. However, more and more, science and technology are proving those notions irrelevant.

That doesn't mean that you can farm grapes anywhere. No, it's farming. You've got to be able to farm the vine. But given a relatively broad range of parameters, humans can farm to accomodate more than one may think. Certainly the physical properties of the soil will alter farming, and sand that can't retain any water or clay that can't drain any won't work. However the chemical composition of the soil is irrelevant to grape flavor. Too much humidity (think Gulf Coast), the mold, mildew problems are too severe. But those are farming issues, not grape flavor issues. If you can farm the clone properly for the conditions it's growing in, and alter crop yields so that phenolic ripeness paces sugar ripeness, the phenolics that the clone is genetically programmed to create will be created. And, there's the appropriate canopy management, leaf pulling schedule and more. The differences in the locations the grapes are grown are minimal to none.

That being said, not two wines are EVER identical, even if they're made from adjacent vines in the same vineyard. And I have no doubt that you can taste the differences in wines grown in different places. However, it's really a case of "correlation doesn't imply causation". Until clonal differences are identified (and current technology doesn't easily allow clones to be back identified) there's no way to be assured that location is crucial.

I enjoy these discussions, and I understand that I'm currently in the minority in the wine world. Not alone, though.

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I think you are right that we are not that far apart. When I think of wine from particular vineyards, it's typically because I've become familiar with a particular grower. MacDonald, for example, but also places like Vine Hill Ranch. The Phillips family has turned out great fruit for a long time; yes, it's a great plot of land that backs up to the Mayacama range, but the care and passion that Bruce Phillips uses is what makes the fruit special (IMO). Oh, and the wine they make under their own label is outstanding.

We go out there 1-2x year, and try different places. What I seem to gravitate to these days is based more on the winemaker and the vineyard, but the vineyard based on what someone is doing there, not because of the name or location.

Austintm said:

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Aggie7156 said:

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Just discovered this thread. Too much to look through the whole thing. Looking for opiniones on good cabs that are in the 15- 20 dollar range. Thanks

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Tough range for good cabs. That said, try Josh Cellars and Hess Select. Also try Catena from Argentina (they make a cab and a Malbec for under $20).
Take a trip to Costco and see what they have usually have some decent California cabs and French Bordeaux in that range.

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Good recs. I think Imagery makes a pretty good cab for about $20.

I seem to recall Educated Guess being pretty good in that range.

jh0400 said:

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I seem to recall Educated Guess being pretty good in that range.

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Forgot about this one.

Disclaimer: I have had a lower priced cab in over 6 years so I'm not sure how these will be. That said, my first thought was educated guess. Beringer used to make a decent inexpensive Napa cab and theie Rutherford bottle wasn't bad for $25 (that has probably gone up by now). Angelina made a not bad one too.

Be careful with cheap cabs, as some producers will leave a lot of sugar in the wine. Avoid stuff like Apothic Red, 19 Crimes, etc.

Some decent cabs that are easy to find are Chteau St. Michelle, Earthquake, Hess Allomi, Justin, Daou, Educated Guess, and Smith & Hook.

https://www.totalwine.com/wine/red-wine/cabernet-sauvignon/chateau-ste-michelle-cabernet-sauvignon-canoe-ridge/p/60386750?s=501&igrules=true

https://www.totalwine.com/wine/red-wine/cabernet-sauvignon/earthquake-cabernet/p/36222750?s=501&igrules=true

https://www.totalwine.com/wine/red-wine/cabernet-sauvignon/hess-cabernet-napa-allomi-vineyard/p/93849750?s=501&igrules=true

https://www.totalwine.com/wine/red-wine/cabernet-sauvignon/justin-cabernet-paso-robles/p/12841750?s=501&igrules=true

https://www.totalwine.com/wine/red-wine/cabernet-sauvignon/daou-cabernet-paso-robles/p/109246750?s=501&igrules=true

https://www.totalwine.com/wine/red-wine/cabernet-sauvignon/educated-guess-cabernet-napa/p/108208750?s=501&igrules=true

https://www.totalwine.com/wine/red-wine/cabernet-sauvignon/smith-hook-cabernet/p/4686750?s=501&igrules=true

I remember being surprised that Costco and Sams both had pretty decent wine selections.

Going to a party that will be cooking an Israeli meal from Ottolenghi's cookbook. Not sure of the exact dishes yet.

What are your favorite Israeli reds and whites? I will need both.

I was just talking to a winemaker buddy out in Cali who shares a similar palate with me when it comes to Salon Champagne (what are the odds on that one, right?).

He says that the rumor is it will be sold in magnum only, which we've known, but it will also be boxed with 2 bottles each of late disgorged 2004,2006, and 2007. And the expected retail price will be around $9000.

WTF???!!!???

I mean, I love Salon and I was prepared to buy a single mag, but holy crap nuggets. I'm blown away. That was going to be my retirement wine in about 20 years. I guess I'll just add a few more 2008 Cristal, Taittinger Comptes, and Dom instead. The struggle is real, y'all.

Have tried some Israeli wine when I visited a couple years back that I liked, but I've only have ever seen one producer or 2 stateside (outside of the religious kosher stuff). A white and red from the same producer in Israel, at Whole Foods. But I bet there are some. Boutique wine stores with more options.

If in Houston I'd check out Phoenicia for Israeli wine.

Heading to Paso tomorrow! Dinner at six test Kitchen and Somm's Kitchen, and tasting at Epoch, Booker, Tablas Creek, Justin, Herman Story, Derby, linne Calodo, and Herman story.

Will be in San Jose area for a wedding next month. Will have 1 day to check out the wine scene and go out to dinner. Any input from you guys.... I have ridge booked for the estate tasting. Should I keep that or try somewhere different?

I just did Ridge about a month ago while I was in the area. It's a pretty typical "big" winery tasting set up but I thought it was worth the drive up the mountain. Historic place.

JCA1 said:

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Just got the William & Mary save the date notice. Release coming Oct. 1.

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Same...thanks BSD for the suggestion...

Shooooot. Ain't no thang.

No Ultramarine for me this year.