I feel like people really do underestimate how much better a pro golfer is than an amateur.

I bet we all agree the best amateur basketball player we know would lose 10-0 in a pickup game with an NBA player.

The gap is the same in every sport.

No doubt that PGA players are other worldly. But I also think some of us have a disagreement on +2. When I make this assumption, I'm not talking about your buddy who is a lie-bumping, rarely/never-plays-tournament golf, slightly pencil-whipping +2. Or the late middle aged +2 who hits the ball 250 and lives off his short game. I'm thinking guys who play competitive amateur golf on a regular basis, who likely grew up playing competitive golf. Guys who are truly legit +2's that aren't going to give up much distance-wise. Guys who when you look up in GHIN, you're gonna see some C rounds in their last 20. Again, 2 Jeff Knox's in their prime. He's shown he can play E golf out there on one ball.

I'm just not sure where this "+2 couldnt break 80" comes from when a +1 shot showed he could routinely shoot low to mid 70s in a tournament setup in front of a gallery. The dude shot 70 to Rory's 71 when he was 51 years old.

I've played with a few +6 handicappers. And played with lots of +2 guys. Of course, a scramble team would have a shot at winning. In fact, they would be the favorite.

Think about the guys that have won the Masters recently. Every one of them has a few holes with three putts, or shot in the water, or drive in the woods. You eliminate nearly all of that with two man scramble.

I'm not saying it can't happen, just not that it's a given that it would. All you'd have to do is get 1 shot up. As long as it isn't make it take it and they get the ball first there's a chance.

DannyDuberstein said:

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No doubt that PGA players are other worldly. But I also think some of us have a disagreement on +2. When I make this assumption, I'm not talking about your buddy who is a lie-bumping, rarely/never-plays-tournament golf, slightly pencil-whipping +2. Or the late middle aged +2 who hits the ball 250 and lives off his short game. I'm thinking guys who play competitive amateur golf on a regular basis, who likely grew up playing competitive golf. Guys who are truly legit +2's that aren't going to give up much distance-wise. Guys who when you look up in GHIN, you're gonna see some C rounds in their last 20. Again, 2 Jeff Knox's in their prime. He's shown he can play E golf out there on one ball.

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Me too.

I don't think a lot of people really know or play with real +2 players. They may know a guy at their club or something but real +2 golfers who hold that handicap by playing competitive golf are pretty rare.

I know and play regularly with a couple of guys like that. I have never been to Augusta but have played plenty of PGA courses and I have no doubt that if they played in a scramble format they could win if there were no crowds and they were not playing for life changing money. That's where the challenge would be.

Throw in the crowds and the cameras and the money and it would be pretty tough. But if we were just, say, teeing it up at TPC San Antonio one day and I could pick two +2 golfers vs any PGA player and winner gets $100 and free beer I would take the +2s every time.

Agree, and I'm definitely talking legit +2 vs paper +2. And I'm staking a chunk on what Knox has done in the Masters setup and in front of the gallery. Granted, no tv and no prize money (other than what he bet the player, which beating Sergio and taking his $$$ back in 2004 or so is on his ledger). But this is also a gimmick, so in my view, there is THAT much glory and a lifetime of champions dinners riding on it.

I think going toe to toe with a major champion like Els or Rory on that setup and in front of that gallery and holding up great says that it is possible for a true +2 to stand up well. Imagine walking up yo that 1st tee on Saturday morning, your partner Rory McIlroy or Ernie Els announced, and knowing that on Saturday, this giy isn't gonna win the tournament but he does likely still have visions of moving up the board and salvaging a nice major paycheck. They haven't all been Sunday trunk slammers

aginlakeway said:

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BLSD said:

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Aggie369 said:

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I'll say they could compete scoring wise on any given round but not with crowds and TV cameras

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If they're +2's, crowds and TV won't phase them a bit.

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My 15 years over covering golf (including 6 years at TGC) and my attending 11 Masters and me playing Augusta National the Monday after the Masters leads me to a much different conclusion.

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My son-in-law, who usually shoots low 80's, played Augusta the Monday after last year's final and shot a 94. He said the only reason he didn't have a higher score was that he was under no pressure and that his caddy was excellent. So, based on that small amount of information, I would guess that two top amateurs could possibly compete, but not win considering the pressure of playing in the tournament.

I submit to the court the case of Tony Romo. Here's a +2 guy that doesn't need the money, and is used to cameras/crowds. Really good player.

Can barely get out of US Open Local qualifying stage.

Never in a million years did I think this would get to page 3. Surprisingly volatile topic.

Michael Jordan is another example.

Law Hall 69-72 said:

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aginlakeway said:

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BLSD said:

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Aggie369 said:

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I'll say they could compete scoring wise on any given round but not with crowds and TV cameras

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If they're +2's, crowds and TV won't phase them a bit.

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My 15 years over covering golf (including 6 years at TGC) and my attending 11 Masters and me playing Augusta National the Monday after the Masters leads me to a much different conclusion.

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My son-in-law, who usually shoots low 80's, played Augusta the Monday after last year's final and shot a 94. He said the only reason he didn't have a higher score was that he was under no pressure and that his caddy was excellent. So, based on that small amount of information, I would guess that two top amateurs could possibly compete, but not win considering the pressure of playing in the tournament.

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Yep. And you SIL played a much shorter course with slower greens.

aginlakeway said:

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Law Hall 69-72 said:

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aginlakeway said:

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BLSD said:

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Aggie369 said:

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I'll say they could compete scoring wise on any given round but not with crowds and TV cameras

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If they're +2's, crowds and TV won't phase them a bit.

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My 15 years over covering golf (including 6 years at TGC) and my attending 11 Masters and me playing Augusta National the Monday after the Masters leads me to a much different conclusion.

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My son-in-law, who usually shoots low 80's, played Augusta the Monday after last year's final and shot a 94. He said the only reason he didn't have a higher score was that he was under no pressure and that his caddy was excellent. So, based on that small amount of information, I would guess that two top amateurs could possibly compete, but not win considering the pressure of playing in the tournament.

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Yep. And you SIL played a much shorter course with slower greens.

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Clearly it varies but I have a buddy who's about a 2 or 3 who played Augusta and shot a 76.

There seem to be a lot of people on this thread who think a +2 and a +2 turn into a +4. They'd have no chance of making the cut and would get their ass handed to them.

OK, if we're talking about 2 +2 college golfers(San and Walker) then yes, they could compete, probably top 5.

If we're talking 2 +2 club players, they could make the cut, but would nit be competitive, the putting alone would kill them, way to many pars, and there would absolutely be some bogey's in there.

I'd say yes under these conditions.

1. They are +2s and have played legit USGA tourneys.
2. They are able to get at least 2 practice rounds in.
3. They take anxiety medication
4. They take pain killers before their rounds.

I'd think if they can get thru 1 with a bogey or better to settle down the nerves each day, and stand up to the pressure on the back 9 on Sunday they could hang.

they should take the winning team from the US Four Ball this week and see how they do.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/championships/2022/u-s--amateur-four-ball.html#!scoring

Womble is a +4.8
Wilfong is a +4.5
Semi-Final win they shot -6 through 13

Stoltz is a +2.8
Kittleson is a +5.1
Semi-Final win they shot -5 thru 17

CapCity12thMan said:

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they should take the winning team from the US Four Ball this week and see how they do.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/championships/2022/u-s--amateur-four-ball.html#!scoring

Womble is a +4.8
Wilfong is a +4.5
Semi-Final win they shot -6 through 13

Stoltz is a +2.8
Kittleson is a +5.1
Semi-Final win they shot -5 thru 17

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Edit..Playing Best Ball Scramble...they would finish Top 5 on Sunday.

They're not +2's.

Four Ball = Best/Better Ball, but I think you meant scramble

CapCity12thMan said:

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Four Ball = Best/Better Ball, but I think you meant scramble

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Correct...I edited while you were typing.

REMARCH11 said:

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OK, if we're talking about 2 +2 college golfers(San and Walker) then yes, they could compete, probably top 5.

If we're talking 2 +2 club players, they could make the cut, but would nit be competitive, the putting alone would kill them, way to many pars, and there would absolutely be some bogey's in there.

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And even as good as Sam is he's missed the cut every time he's gotten a sponsor invite into a PGA Tour event. DFL at the API this spring.

I'm no golfer but it looks to me like the gap between elite amateur and PGA Tour player is pretty big. I realize the scramble aspect would give them additional opportunities but it seems in every round there is that "shot" that's required once or even several times per round that the PGA Tour players have and no one else does.

If it's not possible, I still don't see an explanation for what Jeff Knox has consistently done there. Now US Open setup? That's another story. But AN is solidly (not insanely) long but not crazy punitive, partly due to the first cut situation.

DannyDuberstein said:

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If it's not possible, I still don't see an explanation for what Jeff Knox has consistently done there. Now US Open setup? That's another story.

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He's a member. He plays there a lot. That's the explanation.

A former PGA player/caddie and current PGA head pros and coaches have chimed in thru friends on this thread. They have all said the same thing. They wouldn't compete for the title.

I know everyone has their own opinions. But I tend to give more credence to pros' opinions rather than amateurs' opinions.

Great discussion tho!!! Threads like this are why I live TexAgs.

Gotta hit the shots. Course knowledge is worth a bit but not crazy stroke differences. Mix in a club length drop with 2 attempts.

aginlakeway said:

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DannyDuberstein said:

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If it's not possible, I still don't see an explanation for what Jeff Knox has consistently done there. Now US Open setup? That's another story.

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He's a member. He plays there a lot. That's the explanation.

A former PGA player/caddie and current PGA head pros and coaches have chimed in thru friends on this thread. They have all said the same thing. They wouldn't compete for the title.

I know everyone has their own opinions. But I tend to give more credence to pros' opinions rather than amateurs' opinions.

Great discussion tho!!! Threads like this are why I live TexAgs.

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Just curious, you think Knox can shoot low 70s at Augusta by himself due to course knowledge, but him and another +2 have no chance to do the same thing (shoot low 70s) in a scramble format if you dropped them at, say, Bay Hill? That's a lot of course knowledge.