Could two amateurs scramble to win the Masters?

26,648 Views | 492 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by CapCity12thMan
jja79
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I understand that. Maybe I overestimate the difference between a PGA Tour pro and a couple of +2's. I suspect the first guy would occasionally step up and hit a bad shot which then puts real pressure on the second guy. Maybe they're up to it, I certainly don't know.

I know that I regularly see a couple of guys with cards that are trying like heck to keep them so never played the Masters and I can't believe the shots they can hit.
aginlakeway
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DannyDuberstein said:

Gotta hit the shots. Course knowledge is worth a bit but not crazy stroke differences. Mix in a club length drop with 2 attempts.

Course knowledge at Augusta is worth a lot more than a few shots. Just like at most other top courses. You know that.

I shot 106 at Pine Valley way back when when I was a 4 handicap. I had no idea where to hit the ball, and what to do when I was in trouble. Every mistake I made seemed to cost me 2 shots, not 1 shot. The guy I played with (first timer as well) was a 3 handicap and he shot 98. The member we played with was a 12 handicap or so, and I think he shot 84 or 85.

I don't think they break 75 in a scramble in tournament conditions with those cameras and galleries after just 2 practice rounds. And several pros in the golf world have chimed in via friends on this thread, and they agree with that opinion.

Agree to disagree.
aginlakeway
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JCA1 said:

aginlakeway said:

DannyDuberstein said:

If it's not possible, I still don't see an explanation for what Jeff Knox has consistently done there. Now US Open setup? That's another story.


He's a member. He plays there a lot. That's the explanation.

A former PGA player/caddie and current PGA head pros and coaches have chimed in thru friends on this thread. They have all said the same thing. They wouldn't compete for the title.

I know everyone has their own opinions. But I tend to give more credence to pros' opinions rather than amateurs' opinions.

Great discussion tho!!! Threads like this are why I live TexAgs.
Just curious, you think Knox can shoot low 70s at Augusta by himself due to course knowledge, but him and another +2 have no chance to do the same thing (shoot low 70s) in a scramble format if you dropped them at, say, Bay Hill? That's a lot of course knowledge.

That course requires A LOT of knowledge. And I am not alone in thinking that.
JCA1
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aginlakeway said:

DannyDuberstein said:

Gotta hit the shots. Course knowledge is worth a bit but not crazy stroke differences. Mix in a club length drop with 2 attempts.

Course knowledge at Augusta is worth a lot more than a few shots. Just like at most other top courses. You know that.

I shot 106 at Pine Valley way back when when I was a 4 handicap. I had no idea where to hit the ball, and what to do when I was in trouble. Every mistake I made seemed to cost me 2 shots, not 1 shot. The guy I played with (first timer as well) was a 3 handicap and he shot 98. The member we played with was a 12 handicap or so, and I think he shot 84 or 85.

I don't think they break 75 in a scramble in tournament conditions with those cameras and galleries after just 2 practice rounds. And several pros in the golf world have chimed in via friends on this thread, and they agree with that opinion.

Agree to disagree.
Presumably this hypothetical allows practice rounds Monday-Wednesday in advance of the tourney as well as seasoned caddies to assist. Your unprepared round at Pine Valley does not seem like a good comparison.
aginlakeway
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JCA1 said:

aginlakeway said:

DannyDuberstein said:

Gotta hit the shots. Course knowledge is worth a bit but not crazy stroke differences. Mix in a club length drop with 2 attempts.

Course knowledge at Augusta is worth a lot more than a few shots. Just like at most other top courses. You know that.

I shot 106 at Pine Valley way back when when I was a 4 handicap. I had no idea where to hit the ball, and what to do when I was in trouble. Every mistake I made seemed to cost me 2 shots, not 1 shot. The guy I played with (first timer as well) was a 3 handicap and he shot 98. The member we played with was a 12 handicap or so, and I think he shot 84 or 85.

I don't think they break 75 in a scramble in tournament conditions with those cameras and galleries after just 2 practice rounds. And several pros in the golf world have chimed in via friends on this thread, and they agree with that opinion.

Agree to disagree.
Presumably this hypothetical allows practice rounds Monday-Wednesday in advance of the tourney as well as seasoned caddies to assist. Your unprepared round at Pine Valley does not seem like a good comparison.

Correct. I was very unprepared. I hadn't played in a week.

The hypothetical in the OP allowed for 2 practice rounds. There was no mention of caddies to assist.

Fascinating topic!

JCA1
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aginlakeway said:

JCA1 said:

aginlakeway said:

DannyDuberstein said:

Gotta hit the shots. Course knowledge is worth a bit but not crazy stroke differences. Mix in a club length drop with 2 attempts.

Course knowledge at Augusta is worth a lot more than a few shots. Just like at most other top courses. You know that.

I shot 106 at Pine Valley way back when when I was a 4 handicap. I had no idea where to hit the ball, and what to do when I was in trouble. Every mistake I made seemed to cost me 2 shots, not 1 shot. The guy I played with (first timer as well) was a 3 handicap and he shot 98. The member we played with was a 12 handicap or so, and I think he shot 84 or 85.

I don't think they break 75 in a scramble in tournament conditions with those cameras and galleries after just 2 practice rounds. And several pros in the golf world have chimed in via friends on this thread, and they agree with that opinion.

Agree to disagree.
Presumably this hypothetical allows practice rounds Monday-Wednesday in advance of the tourney as well as seasoned caddies to assist. Your unprepared round at Pine Valley does not seem like a good comparison.

Correct. I was very unprepared. I hadn't played in a week.

The hypothetical in the OP allowed for 2 practice rounds. There was no mention of caddies to assist.

Fascinating topic!


They're playing in the Masters! Why in the world would you think they wouldn't have caddies?
DannyDuberstein
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Lack of course knowledge hasn't stopped HS and college women from shooting 67 in televised matches from 6400-6500 yards the Saturday before (which is a typical lpga to pga gap). I'm sure the greens speed up, but anyone who has watched this tournament has seen they are still danged slick. they get 1 practice round and play one tournament round
aginlakeway
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JCA1 said:

aginlakeway said:

JCA1 said:

aginlakeway said:

DannyDuberstein said:

Gotta hit the shots. Course knowledge is worth a bit but not crazy stroke differences. Mix in a club length drop with 2 attempts.

Course knowledge at Augusta is worth a lot more than a few shots. Just like at most other top courses. You know that.

I shot 106 at Pine Valley way back when when I was a 4 handicap. I had no idea where to hit the ball, and what to do when I was in trouble. Every mistake I made seemed to cost me 2 shots, not 1 shot. The guy I played with (first timer as well) was a 3 handicap and he shot 98. The member we played with was a 12 handicap or so, and I think he shot 84 or 85.

I don't think they break 75 in a scramble in tournament conditions with those cameras and galleries after just 2 practice rounds. And several pros in the golf world have chimed in via friends on this thread, and they agree with that opinion.

Agree to disagree.
Presumably this hypothetical allows practice rounds Monday-Wednesday in advance of the tourney as well as seasoned caddies to assist. Your unprepared round at Pine Valley does not seem like a good comparison.

Correct. I was very unprepared. I hadn't played in a week.

The hypothetical in the OP allowed for 2 practice rounds. There was no mention of caddies to assist.

Fascinating topic!


They're playing in the Masters! Why in the world would you think they wouldn't have caddies?

Correct. My bad.

I'll stick to my opinion as well as the opinion of other golf pros who chimed in via friends on this thread.

And I'll refrain from again mentioning from first-hand experience how intimidating it is to play Augusta. I have been chided for mentioning my experience playing there too often ...
agsalaska
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jja79 said:

I understand that. Maybe I overestimate the difference between a PGA Tour pro and a couple of +2's. I suspect the first guy would occasionally step up and hit a bad shot which then puts real pressure on the second guy. Maybe they're up to it, I certainly don't know.

I know that I regularly see a couple of guys with cards that are trying like heck to keep them so never played the Masters and I can't believe the shots they can hit.
No There is a huge difference between a tour pro and a +2. We know what the tour pro is going to do in this case. Question is what would the two +2s do.

In my experience talking about competitive +2s(not club +2s) those guys can generally hit every shot a pro can hit. Most of the pros separate themselves from competitive amateurs inside 50 yards. But if you gave the +2s two looks at every putt....

Like I said earlier, on a regular tour course with no money on the line or no paycheck, cameras, etc. and assuming these are competitive +2 players I would take the +2s 10 times out of 10 against a touring pro.

The more I think about it the more I don't think they could compete simply because of the crowds and the pressure. But if you took that away and just looked at it in the abstract so to speak two +2s in a scramble would go very low every round on just about any course.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
jj9000
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Tony Romo at Maridoe seems like a fair comparison.

Maridoe from the tips is 80.5/155...which rates more difficult than Augusta.

Tony is a +3.5 at Maridoe.

Put 2 Tony Romos at Augusta...playing a Best Ball Scramble...and they're in contention on Sunday.
Aggie369
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My guy plays with Romo a fair amount in Dallas. I'll see how many strokes he gives him
jj9000
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Aggie369 said:

My guy plays with Romo a fair amount in Dallas. I'll see how many strokes he gives him


Cool.

Also ask him if 2 Romos played in a Best Ball Scramble if they'd compete. Every shot x 2...with the 2nd shot basically being lift/clean/place.
The Lost
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jj9000 said:

Tony Romo at Maridoe seems like a fair comparison.

Maridoe from the tips is 80.5/155...which rates more difficult than Augusta.

Tony is a +3.5 at Maridoe.

Put 2 Tony Romos at Augusta...playing a Best Ball Scramble...and they're in contention on Sunday.


Lol go look at how tony has done on any korn ferry/pga tour event and it'll confirm how much harder those events are. No way they'd be consistent enough over 4 days. Dude usually puts a decent round and a **** round together to miss the cut.
Aggie369
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Lol

This could prob be arranged...who's gonna put money down? Lol

Keep in mind my guy isn't a korn ferry or PGA regular so this isn't whats proposed in the OP but he says he normally should give him 5 or 6 strokes when they play
jj9000
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The Lost said:

jj9000 said:

Tony Romo at Maridoe seems like a fair comparison.

Maridoe from the tips is 80.5/155...which rates more difficult than Augusta.

Tony is a +3.5 at Maridoe.

Put 2 Tony Romos at Augusta...playing a Best Ball Scramble...and they're in contention on Sunday.


Lol go look at how tony has done on any korn ferry/pga tour event and it'll confirm how much harder those events are. No way they'd be consistent enough over 4 days. Dude usually puts a decent round and a **** round together to miss the cut.


That's 1 Romo...this is the fallacy in most people's logic.

Every shot gets to be hit by another Romo...not hit by Romo #1. Romo #1 is not dropping 2 balls. There's another standalone Romo hitting the 2nd ball...lift/clean/place. Includes putting. If Romo #1 is having a bad day, he gets Romo #2 to bail him out when he needs bailing out.

I still say Romo #1 and #2 competes at Augusta.
mavsfan4ever
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jja79 said:

I understand that. Maybe I overestimate the difference between a PGA Tour pro and a couple of +2's. I suspect the first guy would occasionally step up and hit a bad shot which then puts real pressure on the second guy. Maybe they're up to it, I certainly don't know.

I know that I regularly see a couple of guys with cards that are trying like heck to keep them so never played the Masters and I can't believe the shots they can hit.


You aren't underestimating the difference between a pro and a legit +2. But You are massively underestimating how much a scramble format would lower the typical score of a legit +2. They will have many birdie opportunities and shouldn't bogey many at all.

I'm assuming they at least get a week to play practice rounds, etc. going in cold turkey on that course would be a different story.
Aggie369
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I know this is all fun and opinions bu my guy says Romo playing 2 balls might make the cut at augusta.

Played on tour, caddied on tour , played/plays with romo...hes got decent insight into this scenario

Romo can putt and has 185 ball speed....he can show up and play but through 4 rounds ur gonna get something below average

Aggie369
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Prob 8 strokes different from PGA Tour pro and a +2 that plays competitively but not on tour courses and without crowds/cameras and actual pressure
aginlakeway
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Aggie369 said:

I know this is all fun and opinions bu my guy says Romo playing 2 balls might make the cut at augusta.

Played on tour, caddied on tour , played/plays with romo...hes got decent insight into this scenario

Romo can putt and has 185 ball speed....he can show up and play but through 4 rounds ur gonna get something below average



100% agree. The two +2 players in a scramble might make the cut. They also might not.
jj9000
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It's not the same Romo though...that's my point. If it were the same guy playing 2 balls on the same day...he might have a bad day and it would go to the shtter. This is a totally different person for the lift/clean/place for ball #2. Kind of like the 4-Ball Championship that CapCity referenced...but in a Scramble Best Ball format.
mavsfan4ever
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Aggie369 said:

Lol

This could prob be arranged...who's gonna put money down? Lol

Keep in mind my guy isn't a korn ferry or PGA regular so this isn't whats proposed in the OP but he says he normally should give him 5 or 6 strokes when they play


If your guy typically gives someone 5 strokes, then I doubt your guy is going to bet big money against that person scrambling. But if he wanted to and I knew the scramble player was a legit player/handicap, then I'd be willing to put a lot on the scramble side.
mavsfan4ever
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Aggie369 said:

Prob 8 strokes different from PGA Tour pro and a +2 that plays competitively but not on tour courses and without crowds/cameras and actual pressure


That sounds about right to me, maybe a tad high if it's a legit +2 that plays in some serious tournaments. I'm saying that two guys scrambling would lower their typical score by 6-10 shots if they scrambled. So they could be competitive.

A scramble isn't just going to lower someone's score by a couple shots.

Very fun hypothetical. Would be cool to set something like this up.
mavsfan4ever
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Quote:



Like I said earlier, on a regular tour course with no money on the line or no paycheck, cameras, etc. and assuming these are competitive +2 players I would take the +2s 10 times out of 10 against a touring pro.




I agree 100% with this. And because they would easily beat the pros in other courses (bc the pros just wouldn't be able to go low enough), I also believe they could be competing at Augusta. Maybe I wouldn't take them 10/10 at Augusta, but they'd at least be competitive and they'd do fairly well in my opinion.

CapCity12thMan
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I still don't know what a Best Ball Scramble is

Also sounds like we have some connections to stage this at Maridoe, Romo included. I volunteer myself to be his partner and can verify handicap.
Yesterday
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CapCity12thMan said:

I still don't know what a Best Ball Scramble is

Also sounds like we have some connections to stage this at Maridoe, Romo included. I volunteer myself to be his partner and can verify handicap.


Yea right man. You already admitted to choking under tournament conditions. Start playing ball down.
jj9000
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CapCity12thMan said:

I still don't know what a Best Ball Scramble is

Also sounds like we have some connections to stage this at Maridoe, Romo included. I volunteer myself to be his partner and can verify handicap.


It's Scramble...2 balls per shot...Also, I'll volunteer to witness and document the event. Make it happen 369.
Aggie369
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I might be able to do u one better....


What if I got u a game with you and another +2 playing a scramble vs a top 50 player at maridoe?
Aggie369
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How much money yall betting on yourselves?
CapCity12thMan
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I wouldn't say I choke in tournaments conditions, and technically this isn't a tournament. I play golf by the rules. I play one scramble per year, and I hate it.

Having never played Maridoe, I'd new a few more pops, or say maybe a year of practice rounds
Yesterday
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CapCity12thMan said:

I wouldn't say I choke in tournaments conditions, and technically this isn't a tournament. I play golf by the rules. I play one scramble per year, and I hate it.

Having never played Maridoe, I'd new a few more pops, or say maybe a year of practice rounds


I'm teasing you! Played one USGA mid am qualifier and shot 6 strokes higher than my handicap with a triple bogey. I'd do no better.
Chipotlemonger
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Jj9000 is nailing this one on the head.

Also, the term "best ball scramble" is erroneous as they are two different things.

Best ball = in my experience either both players hit a tee shot then they play in separately from the best tee shot, or both play the hole fully and the team takes the lowest score between the 2 of them regardless of how the tee shot it treated.

Scramble = every shot, your team gets 2 shots at it in this scenario.
bagger05
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I've always thought of best ball as you each play your own ball and the best score counts. I get a 5, you get a 4, that means our team cards a 4.

Scramble is we each take a shot, pick which one we like better, and then play our next shot from there, repeat until one of us holes out.
Chipotlemonger
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Yes I think those 2 explanations are the tried and true ones.

Sometimes I'd do "best ball (off the tee)" with family and just shorten it to best ball. But you have it right.
Seven Costanza
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I think it would be a fun gimmick to have two very good local members of the host course play a scramble in one of the smaller PGA tournaments.
Aggie369
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U got a buddy that's a +2 that wants to play a scramble at maridoe vs a top 50 player?
 
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