Majors key off of world ranking points. If someone is banned from the PGA and the Saudi tour generates no points, then you will have guys disappearing from majors even without the major making a specific effort to ban

AustinCountyAg said:

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all it takes will be a couple top 10 players of the world to commit to the LIV league and the PGA tour will drop all this "suspended for life" BS. .....you really think if say Spieth, DJ, and JT all decide they want to play the other tour some the PGA tour will kick them out F No?! PGA tour relies on sponsorship money. Big name players go hand in hand with that. Good luck telling AT&T Spieth isn't allowed to play in their own tournament at the pro am at Pebble Beach.

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You may ultimately be proven right but your conviction is based on extremely short term thinking. I doubt the Tour is looking at it on such a short timeline. This is an existential threat. The Saudis can lose $100 million a year on this tour for decades. The tour simply can't compete with that financially. I could easily see them banning marquee names because the alternative is everyone going over there for half the year if they're allowed to come back.

jj9000 said:

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Aggie369 said:

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Saudi Tour is re offering some players that ended up saying no on first offer

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This will end up in court.

The PGA Tour banning (or threatening to ban) independent contractors from playing non-PGA sanctions events will be challenged.

All it's going to take is 1-2 middle of the pack players to jump ship, make a boatload of money, and the others will follow.

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This!

I personally think that if the Saudis push things, there is a good chance that the PGA tour caves. I don't think they are as worried about sponsors as they are worried about legal discovery if things go to the courts. The PGA Tour operates as a non-profit and as more and more stuff leaks out about how the PGA Tour "non-profit" spends its money, it will not be pretty out in the public.

I'm not a lawyer but I also wonder whether their 501c6 status is put at risk if they play hardball and try to restrict players from participating in outside events.

Stymied said:

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jj9000 said:

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Aggie369 said:

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Saudi Tour is re offering some players that ended up saying no on first offer

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This will end up in court.

The PGA Tour banning (or threatening to ban) independent contractors from playing non-PGA sanctions events will be challenged.

All it's going to take is 1-2 middle of the pack players to jump ship, make a boatload of money, and the others will follow.

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This!

I personally think that if the Saudis push things, there is a good chance that the PGA tour caves. I don't think they are as worried about sponsors as they are worried about legal discovery if things go to the courts. The PGA Tour operates as a non-profit and as more and more stuff leaks out about how the PGA Tour "non-profit" spends its money, it will not be pretty out in the public.

I'm not a lawyer but I also wonder whether their 501c6 status is put at risk if they play hardball and try to restrict players from participating in outside events.

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While discovery is often quite broad, those issues don't seem to be relevant to the question at hand, which is the Tour's authority to revoke membership for players that breach their rules. My guess is the Tour would very aggressively challenge such discovery and have a decent chance of preventing it. And even if the discovery was allowed, you then have to somehow get the IRS involved, which I don't see as likely either.

Here's an article from February where a number of anti-trust attorneys weigh in, and they seem to think the Tour is probably within its rights to do this.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga-tour-sgl-ban

I guess my question would be that if 501c6 organizations are trade groups that protect the participants in that trade, could banning participation in said trade be in conflict with their non profit mandate?

Kinda hard to see how they are a non profit that is promoting professional golf if they ban players who are competing in alternative professional golf leagues.

It's pretty much a basic conflict of interest policy, so should be fair game to ban. Funny because I participate in the process of reviewing potential conflicts of interest for our company, and one we had yesterday was for guy that has a side gig as a video gaming coach and the question has come up as to what happens if one of our competitors sponsors his company/team. We've had to lay out some ground rules, but his choosing between us and them is a possibility. We are obviously for profit, but I see no reason why the PGA would be forced to allow someone with a conflict of interest to participate. 501c6 or not, it's still a business with competitive interests to protect

I do think "lifetime" ban gets more tricky. But I could see them within their right to ban for as long as the Saudi league exists

The thing with Saudi is (as I understand it) spieth may not get to choose to move forward with AT&T

The teams in Saudi league are sponsored driven. Maybe AT&T has a team but maybe they don't. If they don't then spieth would most likely not be able to put AT&T on his bag.

He might be able to do their commercial but the Saudi league is sponsor driven and the sponsors get to dictate much more than they do now

As long as big time players are playing in the event there will be world golf ranking points to compete for.

PGA Tour doesn't get to tell other entities that they can't compete for world golf rankings.

Another reason why Saudi was popular is because you potentially had A LOT of the top players committed to playing no cut events with small fields with really high competition so the players could earn lots of world ranking points by playing in Saudi tournaments.

Aggie369 said:

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As long as big time players are playing in the event there will be world golf ranking points to compete for.

PGA Tour doesn't get to tell other entities that they can't compete for world golf rankings.

Another reason why Saudi was popular is because you potentially had A LOT of the top players committed to playing no cut events with small fields with really high competition so the players could earn lots of world ranking points by playing in Saudi tournaments.

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That may very well turn out to be true, but you're saying this like it's true right now and, as best I can tell, none of this has been conclusively decided. And you keep saying the Tour doesn't get to dictate OWR and majors. No one has said otherwise. What people have said is the Tour has a lot of influence on these organizations and will attempt to exert that influence as much as they can. Whether they will be successful in that is still yet to be seen.

This is what has been communicated to current players from Saudi.

But yes everything can change quickly with what gets out and with how much money is on the line.

Aggie369 said:

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This is what has been communicated to current players from Saudi.

But yes everything can change quickly with what gets out and with how much money is on the line.

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What's been communicated? That the Saudi league has been given assurances by whoever runs the OWR that their events will earn points? That's a pretty big acknowledgement that one would think would warrant a press release.

I don't doubt that, in the end, these events will likely earn points. But stating this as if it's already been decided versus speculating on what will likely happen are two different things. It ain't so until the OWR officially sanctions these events.

I'll ask what assurances they were given

Just because it's not public doesn't mean much honestly

Not much more detail I can go into, this is from current tour player, no I won't say who and yes I'm leaving out some things on purpose that aren't public knowledge. I know its frustrating and you can believe it or not believe it but here is at least what the players know/feel

Has Saudi league guaranteed OWGR points? -- Yes as things stand now

Can PGA do anything to not have them count as OWGR tournaments?-- doubtful

Can/will they ban players?-- doubtful, probably would be suspensions

Players (at least some) are getting offered more than first go around


Like a few weeks ago...players are listening and tentatively agreeing to things but without a lot of absolutes your not seeing any public announcements. Still lots and lots of money to be made

https://nypost.com/2022/04/12/watson-westwood-poulter-na-expected-to-join-saudi-golf-league/

First group of names announced- Bubba, Westwood, Poulter, and Na.

Aggie369 said:

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They can't be frozen out of majors

The only way they would be out of majors is if Saudi doesn't get enough high quality players because then they would lose world ranking points. But PGA Tour has no control over any of the 4 majors

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I'm not sure why people do not think they can be frozen out of Majors. Sure the PGA Tour doesn't control the majors but each major has certain criteria as to who qualifies. That isn't set in stone and every major has previously changed such criteria. I bet that is a real unknown (especially the Masters).

I find the anti-trust argument to be weak. The PGA Tour isn't saying you can't play that league but is saying if you do we aren't going to allow you to play in our tournaments. There are countless examples of this type of exclusion throughout America. The lifetime ban might be a bit strong but as far as I can tell that is rumor at this point.

https://www.golfwrx.com/676098/pro-explains-how-saudi-golf-league-could-become-the-biggest-tour-in-the-world/

Saw this today, While this thing took a hit in the present, similar to what this pro says, it still has potential for the future.

The money is too big. There are going to be some average guys making generational money for a while. The big names in golf aren't just going to let them have it. The Saudi tours goal to coexist will end up happening as the PGA is going to have to play along at some point.

Sergio Garcia, frustrated with what he thought was the early start of the clock to look for a lost ball, seemingly telling a rules official…

…I cant wait to leave this tour

…cant wait to get outta here

…just a couple more weeks until I don’t have to deal with you any more pic.twitter.com/k1qRRYbmsF

— The Fried Egg (@the_fried_egg) May 5, 2022

Over last few weeks Saudi went back and re-offered a lot of guys and the offers went up (shocking)

We will see what happens

Phil will in fact be a martyr when all is said and done. The PGA is going to have to cave to a lot of demands the players have.

RealTalk said:

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t - cam said:

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Phil will in fact be a martyr when all is said and done. The PGA is going to have to cave to a lot of demands the players have.

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Phil ain't a martyr. He didn't voluntarily fall on the sword for the cause; his big mouth got him in trouble.

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He said back when he gave the quote that got him trouble his goal was to improve the tour. That's probably going to happen.

If they only pull guys like Garcia this new league will be like a fart in the wind.

RealTalk said:

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t - cam said:

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Phil will in fact be a martyr when all is said and done. The PGA is going to have to cave to a lot of demands the players have.

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Phil ain't a martyr. He didn't voluntarily fall on the sword for the cause; his big mouth got him in trouble.

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Phil needs the money

J. Peterman said:

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RealTalk said:

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t - cam said:

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Phil will in fact be a martyr when all is said and done. The PGA is going to have to cave to a lot of demands the players have.

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Phil ain't a martyr. He didn't voluntarily fall on the sword for the cause; his big mouth got him in trouble.

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Phil needs the money

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Dudes worth 100s of millions.

Wouldn't be so sure

Phil Mickelson Had Gambling Losses of $40 Million From 2010-14, According to Biographer https://t.co/uCqWy3rpmZ

— Bob Harig (@BobHarig) May 5, 2022

:large

Side note happened this week - PGL sent out a letter that screamed of desperation:

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pgl-rory-mcilroy-letter-2022

Yea that letter is a joke

Rumors that Phil stiffed Bones out of a few hundred grand which ultimately led to an acrimonious split. If true, what a chump.

Dude gambles $40 million but needs past-due invoices from his caddie for a few hundred grand? Hope it's false, because I have less than zero respect for him of true. He's been a fan favorite, but this would undo all the good will he's accrued over decades.