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Vestal_Flame
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AG
quote:
but there is value in a home


I agree. But people my age are frequently a little neurotic, I think, as a result of the fact that we've watched almost nothing but wild-ass volatility. I graduated from engineering school at A&M in 1999 and from law school in 2003. So, half my career happened after SHTF in 2007.

We've watched housing become an engine of wealth destruction, and the stock market isn't much better. The S&P is still roughly where it was on the day that I walked across the stage at Reed Arena... in 1999.

My attitude toward money is probably more like that of my grandparents than that of my parents. I think my brother, who is class of '90, is probably a lot more moderate and optimistic.

You say, 'housing' to my parents, and they say, 'steady appreciation.' You say housing to me, and I say, "wild national pump-and-dump."

[This message has been edited by Vestal_Flame (edited 2/1/2013 10:53a).]
Ag92NGranbury
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i agree that there has been bubbles in various asset classes over the years... tech, housing, etc

however...

there is still money to be made in those assets... but you must be disciplined and diversified!

interest only loan on a house that you can't afford? not a good investment decision

staying all in cash because you are worried about asset bubbles? not a good idea either

you say that the s&p hasn't really moved in a long time... while that might be true, you aren't accounting for dividends or gains inside the fund... which amounts to quite a lot over time (at least much more than a money market account)

as buffett once said, 'be greedy when others are fearful, and be fearful when others are greedy'

going against the herd is tough to do, but it can be very beneficial financially

did you have the nads to buy into the s&p at 6500? or dollar cost average in more when it sank? if so, then that value would have over doubled by now

there will always be bubbles in our economy... wealth is less likely to be destroyed as you stay diversified and buy into the asset class that is the cheapest relative to the others
Diggity
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AG
quote:
We've watched housing become an engine of wealth destruction, and the stock market isn't much better. The S&P is still roughly where it was on the day that I walked across the stage at Reed Arena... in 1999


just be glad you live in Texas where the markets didn't get creamed near as badly as the rest of the country.
techno-ag
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Whenever I come across threads like this, I'm reminded of the Mexican fisherman story. I don't always agree with all the lessons people draw from it, but I do think it illustrates how important quality of life & family can be over the relentless pursuit of wealth. It also illustrates how some other cultures may view wealth vs our own.

quote:
An American investment banker was taking a much-needed vacation in a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. The boat had several large, fresh fish in it.

The investment banker was impressed by the quality of the fish and asked the Mexican how long it took to catch them. The Mexican replied, “Only a little while.” The banker then asked why he didn’t stay out longer and catch more fish?

The Mexican fisherman replied he had enough to support his family’s immediate needs.

The American then asked “But what do you do with the rest of your time?”

The Mexican fisherman replied, “I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siesta with my wife, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos: I have a full and busy life, senor.”

The investment banker scoffed, “I am an Ivy League MBA, and I could help you. You could spend more time fishing and with the proceeds buy a bigger boat, and with the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats until eventually you would have a whole fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to the middleman you could sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You could control the product, processing and distribution.”

Then he added, “Of course, you would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City where you would run your growing enterprise.”

The Mexican fisherman asked, “But senor, how long will this all take?”

To which the American replied, “15-20 years.”

“But what then?” asked the Mexican.

The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich. You could make millions.”

“Millions, senor? Then what?”

To which the investment banker replied, “Then you would retire. You could move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.”




http://financialmentor.com/true-wealth/the-parable-of-the-mexican-fisherman-and-investment-banker/2422


Another one of course is the bigger barns parable in Luke 12. Helps put things in perspective, again pursuing wealth at the cost of all else.

quote:
Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”

16 And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man produced a good crop. 17 He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’

18 “Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19 And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’

20 “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’

21 “This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God.”


Note I'm not anti wealth, far from it. I just like a little perspective.
JeffHamilton82
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From a link posted in this thread:

WHERE DO YOU RANK IN WEALTH

(If you have a household net worth of X … you rank in the Y percentile):

$50,000 … 60th percentile
$93,000 … 50th percentile
$100,000 … 48th percentile
$200,000 … 34th percentile
$500,000 … 18th percentile
$750,000 … 12th percentile
$827,000 … 10th percentile
$1 million … 8th percentile
$1.4 million … 5th percentile
$6 million … 1st percentile
TxAg20
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My wife and I rank in the 1st percentile, but not too far into the 1st. I'm 28, she's 27. I started investing in oil & gas at 21. Went to work in oil and gas on the management side at 23 (worked oil and gas labor jobs through college) and made really good money (low 6 figures) with almost no expenses right out of college. I invested my income in oil and gas until I had enough income producing assets to quit my job and start a company at 24 (didn't take long). I continue to reinvest profits into company.

I would say the biggest factor in accumulating financial assets is reinvesting which means delayed gratification. Another big factor, for me, has been the favorable oil and gas industry in the time I've been in it.

As far as distribution of assets:
6% in houses with no mortgage
~1% in vehicles with no liens
6% in cash and investment accounts
87% in business

I fully expect to be able to retire on income/sale of business assets and send my kids to college on income, but my wife and I contribute to retirement accounts and a kids college account monthly "just in case".
Bobby Ewing
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quote:
Many who you would think are millionaires are in fact NOT millionaires - because they spend every dime they make and have an insane amount of debt.

I read somewhere once that the most common vehicle owned by a millionaire was a Ford F150. This was because there are more farmers that are by definition millionaires than there are big shots. There is a lot of truth to that around these parts. Had a client pass away a couple years back that lived in a worthless shack but had almost $2mil in savings bonds in the bank. Crazy!


Most farmers drive something bigger than F-150.
Ag92NGranbury
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txags20... good to see that you are investing 'just in case'

i was in technology before y2k & dotcom... when the boom hit, many coworkers lived and spent like the good times would last forever... and of course, they didn't

people in industries that are cyclical and subject to wild swings in prices should counterbalance portfolio in other industries... kind of goes without saying though, but surprising how many don't heed that advice (enron stock holders)

and congrats on a thriving business!
SecAg
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Not to derail this great thread but I wanted to throw this out there as well.....

My father spent his life being very frugal. He rarely spent any money on himself and if he did, it was the bare minimum. For example when he needed a truck, he bought a used 4-cylinder Ford Ranger with a manual transmission.

When he retired, he had a nice nest egg to enjoy his golden years with my mom. Unfortunately, he was diagnosed with Alzheimers soon after retiring. He's fixing to be put into a full-time facility because he can't take care of himself and he doesn't even recognize his kids.

My point is, don't spend all of your time saving. You only get one shot at life and you don't know how long that will be. Obviously I'm not advocating you to go on a spending spree whenever you have money but don't forget to reward yourself every once in a while.
BMX Bandit
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Good point. And one some people lose sight of.

I'd rather be worth $700k ( for example) living life to its fullest than meet the arbitrary "millionaire" level.

I'd hate to ever tell myself I can't do X because I'm saving to do something if I live until 50.
CorpusAg09
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SecAg,

I'm sorry to hear about your father. My question is, "Was he sacrificing a life of happiness in order to be frugal and have a nest egg?"

-If so, I am doubly sorry for him and to hear about that.
SecAg
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He was sacrificing having nicer things "then" in order to have more "later". See truck example. We had 7 people living in a 1500 sq. ft. house.

He was happy in life. Coached our sports teams, always made time for us. Great, great man who got a raw deal. Did I mention he never drank, smoked or cursed? Still pisses me off that he had this horrible disease at such a young age (64).
Zona81
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Here's my 2 cents on how I got to the $3 million mark. It's definitely a get rich slow plan.

1. Max out your retirement accounts. I've done it every month since I've been working-- which is now 30 years. 401k's and IRA's both.

2. Buy rental property with a long-term view. I'm not a flipper.

My rule has been if I can have neutral (or even a small negative) cash flow on a 15 year mortgage, it's generally a good deal. This goes against the grain for most of the experts that demand great positive income every month, but it's worked for me. I have 100% equity in several properties that didn't generate positive cash flow until the last few years of the life of the mortgage. Having tenants pay the mortgage is a beautiful thing, and now that the properties are paid off, it's all positive cash flow.

This strategy certainly works best when you have reliable long-term tenants. You don't want to be swapping tenants every year so that you're stuck empty property for months at a time. I've been pretty lucky on this score.

Stay with higher-end rentals to get a higher-end renter. Doesn't always work out that way, but your odds are better.

3. Use Quicken (or Mint or something like it). I've used Quicken since '98 and, without sounding overly dramatic, it simply has changed my life. Admittedly, I'm anal about it: I keep track of almost every dollar I spend in Quicken. It's become a habit, a daily routine like walking the dog, and something I that takes 2 minutes everyday. Some may say it's overkill, but I like the discipline and the organization it forces me to live by.

4. Buy dividend-producing individual stocks direct from the company and make up your own mini-mutual fund. Many companies have Dividend Reinvestment Plans where you can start with a moderate sum. This is probably the riskiest part of my portfolio, but the yields have become so good in this environment, that it dampens much of the risk.

I should add that I've made several bonehead decisions on this one over the years. I've owned several DRP's of Company's that are no longer with us, rendering my investment worthless. The important thing is to diversify like crazy.

I'm sure many will say to just stick with mutual funds, but I find the DRP's are a good education and a good motivator. Buy and Hold is a strategy shrinking from favor it seems. And my DRP strategy is a buy and hold plan in many ways, so it is a risky one, but it's worked amazingly well for me.

5. Practice bursts of extreme frugality. For example, for a 30 day period, try to eat and entertain yourselves on $200. Make it a seemingly impossible amount. The more daunting, the better. This includes groceries, dining out, entertainment and other discretionary purchases.

We've done this for random months here and there for the past few years, and it's not that big of deal. In fact, it's fun. You eat what's in the pantry or freezer. You catch up on free TV; go to parks you've never seen; take hikes you've never thought about; see $1 movies and skip the popcorn for a change. In my case, I read more, workout more and play the piano more when I'm on a frugality binge.

Take the money you save for the month and pay down your mortgage.

I find that going extreme for one month is more effective (and more fun) than trying a long-term budget. Plus, something about the asceticism during a month like this is very comforting.

I know it's a little weird, but try it sometime.

6. Obviously, stay out of credit card debt and auto loan debt. Don't let these guys have your money. Pay cash for everything, or go on a frugality binge and then buy the car or flat screen you've been wanting.

I know this is all basic stuff, but it really does work. Our household income is good, but not huge- under $200k. We've inherited nothing. We've done okay on our investments, but we've done it with singles, doubles and occasional triples. No home runs, and even a few strikeouts. But no Apples or Microsoft bonanzas, etc.

And we do have fun and spend money when we feel like it. We travel internationally and go on Aggie road trips when we feel like it. In other words, the sacrifices really do seem small, and I feel I've missed nothing even though we are pretty avid savers.

We weren't blessed with kids, so we know things are a lot more difficult for many.

The point is, getting to the multi-million dollar mark is possible for anyone with a decent income and a long-term horizon.

[This message has been edited by ZonaAg (edited 2/2/2013 12:59a).]

[This message has been edited by ZonaAg (edited 2/2/2013 1:27p).]

[This message has been edited by ZonaAg (edited 2/2/2013 1:37p).]
polksalet12345
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Goal setting, you don't become a millionaire by accident (the mentioned 90% that is). I aimed for a million at 40 and fell short. But we have amassed a good chunk of change. I'm shooting for 10 million at 50. I have a way to get there and if I only get halfway I'll be pleased.

Work hard, live cheap, keep your nose clean, don't lie, don't work with shady characters.
ATM9000
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Most common places I observe people keeping up with the Jones':

1. Car
2. House
3. Education

Don't misunderstand what I'm saying on the 3rd. More education (law school, MBA, etc.) is always a good thing. But you have to understand the costs vs. benefits. Figure out your next move in career, plan and be pragmatic about it before you decide to commit debt of 80k for Rice vs. 20k at Houston. There's value in both as well depending on what you want to do.

That said, go into it with a goal in mind for your career with more depth than 'to make more money'. Because if you ever want to maximize the value of either, you need to be focused.

And when analyzing the costs of both do it with the assumption of the job you are aiming for and can realistically attain after completing your program and maybe 1 advancement a couple years later vs. projecting it will put you in place to be CEO of Goldman Sachs or JP Morgan in a decade because the first possibility is likely, the second is not.
Sandman98
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Congrats ZonaAg! That's a great story. If you have the discipline and self confidence to live poor you will become rich.

The drive to win at a saving challenge comes from the exact same skill set that has made you win in business.
hoostin46
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Good posts all!

way to gig 'em
ComeAndTakeIt22
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As someone that is about to graduate, I am curious as to how to handle my student loan. It is only 20k and I have it at a 5.5% interest rate. Would it be best to pay it off as quickly as possible or pay the monthly payments and try to find a place to build up a nest egg that pays higher than a 5.5% return?
techno-ag
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^^^ When you're debt free, anything higher than 0% is golden. Pay off the debt first.
ComeAndTakeIt22
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Thanks, Techno. That was my instinct, but I just wanted to make sure. Once again, this thread is something that a soon-to-be grad appreciates.
jmm
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I gave a talk at Mays last year on being an entrepreneur and accumulating wealth. The key is to work hard, save as much as you can and reinvest those savings. I never went the retirement account route. I used my savings to start new businesses. It is risky, but after you pay enough tuition, you figure out how to manage risk. My assets are distributed to cash, business equity, venture capital fund and speculative real estate.
OilAg01
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Great thread.
AgSoccer2007
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Great thread
BlitzBrother
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A lot of great comments and perspectives - What I wanted to add to my first page comments is to never forget balance - Yes , have a sound plan to achieve financial independence , but do so with BALANCE in your life - Enjoy the journey along the way with an eye on the destination - Also put appropriate VALUE on the intangible things in life that are truely important to you as well - Time , flexibility , control , who and how I work , family , faith are some of the things I truely value - The end destination not always guaranteed !
EliteZags
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don't need to be a millionaire, but enjoy reading advice on the general formula, I'm 28 single and still relatively new to workforce, currently just below 6 figures before stock shares(which could potentially be substantial), usually saving ~60% of paycheck(while still having a blast living in socal) going towards student loans which should be done sometime this year and can start putting money towards something, any major directions to point me towards?
I own both Millionaire Teacher and I Will Teach You to be Rich, plan on reading both through when I get a chance, maybe start with the latter since it seems more basic(?), anything else I should look into?


[This message has been edited by EliteZags (edited 2/4/2013 1:26a).]
mazag08
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Anyone have advice for Realtors where 401k is not an option?
AFarmer95
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Maz, SEP IRA
Speedbird087
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AG
SpicewoodAg
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I am > 50. Net worth is > $2M. About 2/3 is cash/equities/etc. 1/3 is my home. About 55% of equities are in taxable accounts, remainder in 401K/IRAs.

Only debt is the remaining portion of my mortgage, less then 1 year. All cars are paid for. Haven't financed a car in over 12 years.

Two kids in college. One finished.

Do not own a business, but wish I did. Worked for a good while in the software business. Fortunate enough to have earned some stock options but not through an IPO. Stupid enough to have held on too long to some stocks in the dot.com days but smart enough to have NOT done that too often.

I have my indulgences, but I have a strong practical and frugal streak too. I don't generally pay people to do things I can do myself - like most car maintenance, lots of home maintenance. Our newest vehicle (of six) is a 2008. No German cars, but no Saturns, Chevys, or Dodge either. Never paid anyone to mow my lawn, even when it was larger.

I own Apple stock, but no Apple products. I don't constantly replace anything durable.

It pains me greatly to pay $45 for a steak at a restaurant, but I will buy USDA Prime and cook at home. I never ever drink cheap/bad beer, bad bourbon or crappy ice cream. I consider Blue Bell crappy, Jack Daniels cheap.

My primary recommendations to those reading this thread is:

- ready steady accumulation is the way to go for most people. Most people I know who are "go big or go home" people constantly fail.
- don't try to keep up with the Jones, whoever they are. Don't marry someone who is like that.
- it is easy to blow $100K+ on vehicles in a few years. You really don't need a new BMW every three years. Have the courage to take pride that you are spending LESS than your neighbors or peers.
- keep your house expense well below lending limits.
- don't send your kids to private K-12 schools. Instead live in areas with good to great K-12 public schools.
- don't get sucked into monthly drips of your money, like subscriptions for broadband, mobile phones, etc.
- never borrow so much money that if you lose your income, your family's essential lifestyle is at risk.

[This message has been edited by SpicewoodAg (edited 2/4/2013 3:34p).]
EliteZags
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AG
my contribution would be to get slickdeals.net (forums-> hot deals) into your rotation as much as texags and it will make your spending $ go 200% farther, but you also need common sense and self control or you end up ordering a bunch of crap you don't need just cause its too good of a deal to pass up



[This message has been edited by EliteZags (edited 2/4/2013 4:16p).]
diehard14
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AG
Awesome thread guys. As a junior in finance, starting to interview for jobs and being entertained with benefits/salaries and the likes, this is helpful and insightful. I'm frugal by nature and can't wait to get my hands on 401k. I want to accumulate high net worth so I can travel and cook my family great meals, not so I can retire early.

When you retire, you never get a day off.
rononeill
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I cannot +1 this enough:
quote:
set-up a personal investment account , even if zero to start - Have automatic withdrawals from your checking , even if very small to start - Increase over the long term as possible

Get it started, after the first month, you’ll never think about it again. With each raise, bump it for 25-50% of your raise.

Another piece to the pie I don’t think anyone’s touched on yet is starting early. By early, yesterday. Mrs. Rononeill and I, well I, have an overly detailed annual budget that feeds into a lifetime accumulation plan. It basically takes this year’s liquid worth, adds next year’s projected savings, multiplies times a reasonable return (currently carrying 7%), then repeats until we’re 65 (figuring that’s reasonable retirement). We’re 33 and just had our first child, so I’ve toned down the projected savings for the next 28 years figuring there will probably be another mini-Rononeill coming along some day.

Mrs. Rononeill and I have been very fortunate in our careers – we’re not quite fat stacks, but we do pretty well. However we’ve lived significantly below our means and have been prudent in our investments (max 401k, siphon investment capital out of each pay period (see my first comment)). The past few years have given us a very solid base. What’s interesting, is when I zero out future savings in my lifetime tracking plan the needle on our overall 65yr old account moves by less than 28%.

The lesson is: start early – compounded interest can only be beat by the lottery, inheritance, or crazyass good luck. I’d rather not depend on any of those.

Great thread!
arson keg
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quote:
My point is, don't spend all of your time saving. You only get one shot at life and you don't know how long that will be. Obviously I'm not advocating you to go on a spending spree whenever you have money but don't forget to reward yourself every once in a while.


everyone needs to really remember this.
Ag92NGranbury
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AG
quote:
or crazyass good luck.


the harder i work, the luckier i get...

lots of good info in this thread for new graduates... even just starting 3-5 years earlier in your savings can make a huge difference

the trick that i used on the car buying was this...

- buy a new car (get used if you are really a saver) with a 5 year finance plan (assuming that you don't have the $ to pay for it)
- drive it for 10 years and take good care of it
- when you have it paid off in 5, take that same amount of $ per month that you were paying the note with and put it into a savings account
- at the end of 10 years, you pay for the new car in cash
- rinse & repeat

you'll be surprised at how quickly 10 years passes... and if you get a new model, the new models usually come out every 10 years so it appears that you are 'staying with the times'
SpicewoodAg
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Whatever you drive - take care of it. Keep it clean. Helps stave off the new car itch if your vehicle still looks good and drives well.

Unless you are loaded, just wash your car at home! For lots of people that might be the only exercise they do.
 
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