BaseballReference.com oddities

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agsalaska
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In reply to Smeghead4761 • 7:23p, 5/19/23
AG
Interesting. I knew that used to be a rule but didn't realize it changed that late.

If I had to guess the deminsions and height of the fences of the era led to the change. I think if they never changed that rule it wouldn't be an issue today with how rare ground rule doubles are. Not sure I have seen on all season.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
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McInnis
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In reply to Smeghead4761 • 11:26p, 5/19/23
AG
Smeghead4761 said:
On the topic of rules that are different now, until 1929 in the AL and 1931 in the NL, balls that cleared the fence on the bounce after landing in fair territory were home runs.

Babe Ruth's 60 HR season was 1927.

I've sometimes wondered if it would be possible to dig through old newspaper stories and figure out how many of Ruth's HRs would be ground rule doubles under modern rules.

Sacriledge, I know.


I'm surprised I've never heard this because back in the early 70s when Aaron was closing in on the record there were all kinds of arguments being made as to why Aaron's home run total was more or less impressive than Ruth's. The ones I remember:

Ruth's years as a pitcher.
Aaron's higher number of ABs.
Short RF fence in Yankee Stadium.
Thin air in Atlanta (this was way before Coors Field!).
Expansions, dilution of talent.
More talent, higher population, black players in the leagues.
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Smeghead4761
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In reply to McInnis • 1:11a, 5/20/23
From a conversation I recall a couple of radio announcers having once, probably during a rain delay, Ruth was also indirectly responsible for the rule (still in place) that says field dimensions can only be altered once per season.

Apparently some owners would move their outfield fences when Ruth's team came to town. I can't remember if they were moving them out to try to thwart Ruth, or in with the theory that people wanted to see Ruth hit a HR, so they could sell more tickets.

They would then return the fences to their normal dimensions when Ruth's team left.
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McInnis
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In reply to Smeghead4761 • 1:27p, 5/20/23
AG
So, the learning about the old rule counting balls that bounced over the fence as homers caused something in the deep recesses of my memory to stir. I thought I remembered hearing during the Ruth/Aaron debates in the 70s that a batter wasn't credited with a home run if he hit a walk off home run with the winning run on base, reason being that as soon as the winning run crossed home the game was over, preventing the batter from reaching home.

Turns out that's right. This article mentions both of those archaic rules as nos. 9 and 10 on the list.

https://www.mlb.com/cut4/10-bizarre-rules-from-baseballs-past/c-124363454

So that's one that probably cost the Babe.
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Smeghead4761
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In reply to McInnis • 1:55p, 5/20/23
So, we know how many HRs Ruth hit, under the rules that were in place at the time.

What we don't know is how many he would have been credited with, had current rules been in place.

The question is: is it possible to know, and to what degree of certainty?

Box scores won't tell you, but would the actual newspaper stories be descriptive enough?
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aggiephoenix02
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In reply to Smeghead4761 • 5:55p, 5/20/23
Dang, that's incredibly interesting…
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McInnis
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In reply to Aggie1205 • 9:53p, 5/28/23
AG
Aggie1205 said:
You can trust much of anything in Stumps book.

Check out Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty by Charles Leerhsen. He actually does research and backs things up. He does spend a chapter breaking down many of the things wrong with Stump. Cobb was no angel, but its a shame that Stumps narrative is the only one that many people know.


I finished that book and it's great. I no longer believe that Cobb was anywhere close to a psychopath. He undoubtedly had a violent temper and zero tolerance for being disrespected but seemed to have a large capacity for compassion to people less fortunate.

And I no longer believe he was a racist either. He actually had an enlightened view of black people, especially for his time, as did his father. The two stories most commonly used to show his racism (the groundskeeper in Augusta and the elevator operator in Cleveland) have been seriously misreported.

I have noticed over the years that some really smart journalists and authors who do a lot of research can find any kind of discussion about guns totally confusing. Leerhsen described the gun that Cobb pulled on a market owner that sold his wife a piece of fish she said was spoiled as an "automatic .32 revolver".
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YokelRidesAgain
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In reply to McInnis • 6:31a, 5/29/23
AG
McInnis said:

I have noticed over the years that some really smart journalists and authors who do a lot of research can find any kind of discussion about guns totally confusing. Leerhsen described the gun that Cobb pulled on a market owner that sold his wife a piece of fish she said was spoiled as an "automatic .32 revolver".
Revolver designs that use the recoil energy from firing to rotate the cylinder and cock the hammer automatically have been described and marketed as "automatic revolvers". (They are not, of course, automatic weapons in the sense of a single trigger pull firing multiple rounds.)

Several of these models were in manufacture c. 1900--although they were always rare weapons, it is not out of the range of possibility that Cobb possessed one.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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McInnis
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In reply to YokelRidesAgain • 8:47a, 5/29/23
AG
That's interesting, I've never heard of that kind of revolver and by then Cobb could have afforded whatever kind of gun he wanted. But as you say, either way Leerhsen's description of it is wrong.

In his book he referenced Bill Bryson in his book "One Summer - America, 1927" as saying Cobb was a "near psychopath". I hadn't heard of that book and Bryson is one of my favorite authors so I"m reading it now. He misquoted Bryson but the gist is close.

Bryson's book gives the background behind the animosity between Ruth and Gehring. I always figured it was just a matter of much different personalities but that's not true. They were best friends during their early days together until an event occurred that turned affection into hate. Ruth slept with Gehring's wife. I wonder if she was the last woman in New York that he hadn't slept with by then?
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agsalaska
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1:46p, 5/29/23
AG
On a side note,

Zack Greinke, one of my all time favorite pitchers, broke into the top 100 in all time innings pitched this season. He has thrown 3,304.1 innings in his career. And he is not halfway to the all time leader Cy Young who has 7356 career innings. Only about 4300 more to go there Zack.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
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McInnis
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1:51p, 5/30/23
AG
The longest game

I think this story qualifies for this thread. It's about a guy named Dave Koza from the little town of Torrington WY. He never made it past AAA but a bat of his is in the HOF because he used it to get the winning hit in the longest professional baseball game ever played.

It's an interesting story, but here's the highlights:

Torrington, where Koza grew up didn't have a Little League in 1971 so his dad organized it and built the stadium.

In 1981 he was the first baseman for the Pawtucket Red Sox. They were hosting the Rochester Red Wings that April. It was a cold night with a really, really strong wind blowing in.

Game was tied 2-2 after nine, and was still tied after 21. The International League had a 12:50am curfew but that rule was not included in the 1981 version of the rule book. Pawtucket's GM begged the crew chief to suspend the game but he refused. So the GM started calling the league president who wasn't answering his phone.

Players were becoming hypothermic and deliriously exhausted but they kept playing. They were burning bats in barrels for heat.

Finally in the 32nd inning, at about 4am the league president answered his phone and told the umpires to suspend the game.

It was resumed the next time Rochester came to Pawtucket and Koza walked it off in the bottom of the inning. The bat he used is in Cooperstown.

Footnote: the two teams had pretty good third basemen, Wade Boggs for Pawtucket and Cal Ripken Jr. for Rochester.
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Ornithopter
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6:26p, 6/8/23
AG
Did not know Urban Meyer had a page

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=meyer-001urb
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Purlyag
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6:29a, 6/9/23
I love baseball reference. It's my go to spot for stats on anyone, including following minors guys. I really like the random guys throughout baseball history that are displayed on the front page each day. Nice touch.
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Jerry-Ag
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9:24p, 6/11/23
If this is how players pitched back in the day, then no wonder Babe had such incredible stats. I mean look at him while the ball is mid flight. Looks like he's throwing BP. That ball can't be going more than fifty (50) mph. If that were me, I would tee off on those MF'ERS and not think twice (2 times) about it. I was a great athlete back in the day (those days are behind me. Own a small business now). So maybe I am just different than the rest.

Either way, if this is true then I am reluctant to provide any praise to the AVERAGE BAMBINO.
Get back or get Jerry’d
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The Porkchop Express
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5:46p, 7/27/23
It's been a while! I just finished ghostwriting a 30,000 word book for a company in China about "Legendary Stories of Baseball" and I've got some fantastic info, a lot of which I knew nothing about until I started the project. Will try to space them out to 1-2 posts a day so it's not the longest post ever.

Lefty O'Doul, whose stats I've extolled before on here, learned to play baseball from a female coach at his high school in San Francisco in the 1900s. He was originally a pitcher but got hurt during his first spring training with the Yankees and never pitched more than 2-3 times for a few years, got traded to Boston, then sent to the minors. At age 27, he announced he was moving to left field and sent home to San Francisco to play for their minor league team, the Seals. In 1924, he led the PCL with a .392 batting average. He did over .370 for four straight years in the minors until the NY Giant signed him and he hit .319 in the majors.

The Giants traded him to the Phillies, and the next year he hit .398 with 32 HR, 122 RBI, and led the NL with 254 hits (3rd all time I think). For the next three seasons, he was arguably the best hitter in baseball. In 1930 he hit .383 and in 1932 when he was 35, he hit .368 and scored 120 runs. When he retired, he went home to SF and managed the SF Seals, including a young Joe Dimaggio.

In 1938, Ben Chapman was 29 years old and hit .340 for the Red Sox with 80 RBI, 92 runs scored, 40 doubles, a .418 OBP and a .494 slugging %. The Red Sox traded him to Cleveland in the off-season so they could make room in left field for Ted Williams.

Williams has been invited to training camp for the 1938 season with the Red So at age 19, but he arrived 10 days late because of intense flooding in Southern California that closed all the roads and railways. As punishment, they put him at AA Minneapolis for the whole season.
He played 148 games, scored 130 runs, had 43 HR, 142 RBI, batted .366 with a .481 OPS and a .701 SLG

Got called up in '39 and played 149 games, 131 runs, 31 HR, 145 RBI, batted .327 with a .436 OPS and a .609 SLG!



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agsalaska
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In reply to The Porkchop Express • 11:10p, 7/27/23
AG
That is cool
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
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agsalaska
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11:16p, 7/27/23
AG
I heard the most amazing stat I think I have ever heard. Maybe not THE most amazing, but definitely on the short list of most amazing.

1927 New York Yankees

Lou Gehrig had 173 RBIs

Babe Ruth had 60 HRs

Ruth batted IN FRONT of Gehrig. So that means that Gehrig came up to the plate 60 times after Ruth went yard and still finished the year with 173 RBIs, 8 more than Ruth.

That's incredible




But when you look at the team stats you see how he did it. 717 plate appearances for Gehrig driven mostly by a team OBP of .384. But still. Wow.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
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McInnis
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12:36p, 7/28/23
AG
That team had six players that ended up in the HOF. Plus their manager. As well as their president and owner. And they didn't just have hitters. Their team pitching era was 3.20, best in the American League.

Whenever I see a list of the all time greatest baseball teams and it doesn't have the '27 Yankees at the top, I dismiss it as a waste of time to read.
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The Porkchop Express
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12:47p, 7/28/23
Today's fantastic stats from my ghostwritten book are all about Hoyt Wilhelm

Read an article about how to throw a knuckleball in a magazine when he was in high school in the 1930s. High school coach kicked him out of tryouts when he threw it in BP. Came back 2 weeks later and struck out 9 guys in a row and made the team.

  • Graduated high school and went to pitch for the Mooresville Moores of the Carolina D League, a Boston Braves affiliate. Went 10-3 in his first yeaer.
  • Drafted in 1942 to the US Army and wound up fighting in the Battle of the Bulge.
  • Returned to the Mooresville team in 1946 and went 21-8 with a 2.47 ERA.
  • Finally made the majors in 1952 where Leo Durocher thought the knuckleball was a gimmick and made him a reliever.
  • In his first-ever at-bat, hit a home run. Had another 493 at-bats in his career and never hit another.
  • In 1952, pitched 71 games, led the league in ERA (2.43), saved 11 games and went 15-3 at age 29.
  • In 1954, went 12-4 with a 2.10 ERA for the eventual WS champion NY Giants. Saved Game 3 of the World Series.
  • Traded to to the Cardinals, then the Indians, then the Orioles where he became a starter.
  • In 1958, no-hit the Yankees at Yankee Stadium at age 35.
  • At age 36 in 1959, went 15-11 and led the AL in ERA at 2.19.
  • Moved back to a reliever at age 40 and pitched with them until he was 45.
  • In 1969, picked up by the expansion Angels and pitched 52 games, going 7-7 with a 2.19 ERA.
  • Last appearance came when he was two months shy of his 50th birthday in 1972.
  • All-time leader in wins by a reliever (124), first reliever in the HoF

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The Porkchop Express
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3:21p, 7/30/23
Rare audio-attached interplay of the 1984 World Series between Detroit and San Diego.

In Game 5, Detroit was up 5-4 and had 2 guys on and Kirk Gibson coming to the plate. Goose Gossage tells Dick Williams he thinks he can strike Gibson out. Spark Anderson can't believe they aren't going to intentionally walk Gibson to load the bases and makes sure Gibson knows.

Sparky, who my grandmother claims to have known growing up although most evidence suggests she was lying, is having the time of his life watching it all unfold.

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McInnis
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9:13p, 8/13/23
AG
Here's what happened 113 years ago today:

In the most evenly matched game ever played, Pittsburgh and Brooklyn each have eight runs, thirteen hits, 38 at bats, five strikeouts, three walks, one hit batter, one passed ball, thirteen assists, 27 putouts, two errors, and use two pitchers.

The game was called a tie with the score naturally tied after nine innings. It was the second game of a DH and this was still a few decades before electric lighting. The boxscore:


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bhuff111
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10:17p, 8/22/23
Of all the "what-ifs" from the 1994 season, the biggest for me is whether Tony Gwynn would have hit .400? He was definitely trending… In the final 10 games leading up to the strike on Aug 11, he went 18/43 for a .4186 average, raising his season average from .386 to .394, the highest it had been since 06/01. He had 7 multi hit games during that stretch, striking out once, and walking only 3 times, all intentional. Tells me he was locked in, not even wanting to draw a walk. It's a small sample, but he was clearly hot, even for him. July wasn't too shabby either, going 37/100 and striking out 5 times. His average never fell below .350 after 04/20, 10 games into the season.

Side note, he only hit below .300 his first season, batting .289 in 54 games/190 ab in 1982.
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The Porkchop Express
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In reply to bhuff111 • 11:41a, 8/23/23
bhuff111 said:
Of all the "what-ifs" from the 1994 season, the biggest for me is whether Tony Gwynn would have hit .400? He was definitely trending… In the final 10 games leading up to the strike on Aug 11, he went 18/43 for a .4186 average, raising his season average from .386 to .394, the highest it had been since 06/01. He had 7 multi hit games during that stretch, striking out once, and walking only 3 times, all intentional. Tells me he was locked in, not even wanting to draw a walk. It's a small sample, but he was clearly hot, even for him. July wasn't too shabby either, going 37/100 and striking out 5 times. His average never fell below .350 after 04/20, 10 games into the season.

Side note, he only hit below .300 his first season, batting .289 in 54 games/190 ab in 1982.
One of my favorite WTF stats is that Bagwell hit .368 that year and finished 26 points behind Gwynn in batting average.

I believe Griffey Jr. and Matt Williams were both nearly on pace for Maris's record as well.

Some time I'd like to go through Gwynn's game log and see how many games he went in a row without striking out, or when's the last time he had a 3 strikeout game.
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bhuff111
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In reply to The Porkchop Express • 2:40p, 8/23/23
By my count (subject to error) he struck out twice in a game 31 times, including playoffs. He struck out three times only once, in 1986.
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The Porkchop Express
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In reply to bhuff111 • 3:09p, 8/23/23
bhuff111 said:
By my count (subject to error) he struck out twice in a game 31 times, including playoffs. He struck out three times only once, in 1986.
I had seen something about Rod Carew when I was looking him up for this thread. I think Nolan Ryan was the only guy to ever strike him out 3 times in one game.

Imagine Gwynn at his peak playing in Boston or New York. He'd be a baseball God.
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AustinAg2K
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10:14p, 9/5/23
I had no idea baseball reference also lists pro bowling stats, but apparently Mookie Betts has three perfect games in professional bowling.
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agsalaska
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10:01p, 10/12/23
AG
Sitting here watching Phillies-Braves and had a thought. I thought- 'Kimbrel and Chapmans careers have mirrored each other' so I looked up the pages.

Both players are 35
Both were rookies in 2010

Allstar games are 9-7 Chapman
Total games 728-780 Kimbrel
Total Post Season Games- 38-25 Chapman
Total Saves 321-417 Kimbrel (That one surprised me)
Total NL Games - Total money They have split $260,000,000
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AgRyan04
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5:23p, 12/10/23
I've been in a bit of a BaseballReference rabbit hole the last week or so.....here are a few I've come across....

Babe Ruth only won the MVP once!?!

Bret Saberhagen won two Cy Young Awards but he wasn't named to the All-Star team in either of those seasons.

Similarly, Kirk Gibson won an MVP but NEVER made an All-Star team in his entire career.

Danny Darwin led the NL in ERA in 1990?!?

Luis Gonzalez has more career HRs than Ryne Sandberg.

1968 Luis Tiant: 20 game winner, 250+ strikeouts, 1.60 ERA led the league....did NOT win the Cy Young

Bobby Bonds was a 30/30 player for three different teams.
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AgRyan04
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5:53p, 12/10/23
Two others....

Joe Morgan played 22 seasons and only hit .300 twice. That really suprised me.

Freddy Lynn won the MVP and ROY in the same season. In the same season his teammate, Jim Rice, finished 2nd in ROY voting and 3rd in MVP voting.
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The Porkchop Express
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In reply to AgRyan04 • 2:47p, 12/11/23
AgRyan04 said:


Luis Gonzalez has more career HRs than Ryne Sandberg.


Bobby Bonds was a 30/30 player for three different teams.
Gonzo home runs 1996-2001, can you detect a pattern?
15
10
23
26
31
57


Bobby Bonds was at 39 home runs with 21 games to go in the 1973 season and didn't hit #39 until the season finale while stealing 43 bases. The slump kept him from being the first 40 40 guy.
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AgRyan04
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In reply to The Porkchop Express • 8:04p, 12/11/23
Oh, he was definitley on the same offseason plan as Ken Caminiti and Steve Finley
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The Porkchop Express
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In reply to AgRyan04 • 9:17a, 12/12/23
AgRyan04 said:
Oh, he was definitley on the same offseason plan as Ken Caminiti and Steve Finley
Gonzo's high home run count with the Astros was 15 in 154 games in 1993.

He hit 13 in April of 2001.
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The Porkchop Express
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In reply to AgRyan04 • 9:22a, 12/12/23
AgRyan04 said:
Two others....

Joe Morgan played 22 seasons and only hit .300 twice. That really suprised me.

Freddy Lynn won the MVP and ROY in the same season. In the same season his teammate, Jim Rice, finished 2nd in ROY voting and 3rd in MVP voting.
I love those mid-to-late 70s Red Sox offenses with Rice and Lynn. Lynn got hurt so much playing insane CF or he probably would have been a HOFer.

A few years later, in 1979, he scored 116 runs, hit 42 doubles, 39 HR< 122 RBi, and led the league in average (.333), OBP (.423), and slugging (.637) with Rice driving in 117, getting 201 hits, 39 2B, 39 HR, 130 RBi, hitting .325/.381.596 and not only did neither of them win MVP (Don Baylor), but they missed the playoffs with a 91-69 record.

I love Jim Rice's 1978 MVP year - led league in at-bats (677), hits (213), triples (15), home runs (46), RBI (139), total bases (406), slugging (.600). There can't be many guys plast the dead ball era leading the league in triples and homers the same year. Looks like Willie Mays and Micky Mantle are the only other two.
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AustinAg2K
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In reply to AgRyan04 • 10:04p, 12/12/23
AgRyan04 said:


Babe Ruth only won the MVP once!?!
This is a little misleading. Back when Ruth played, you were only allowed to win the award once. Once you won, you were no longer eligible.
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jkag89
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In reply to AgRyan04 • 10:26p, 12/12/23
Quote:
1968 Luis Tiant: 20 game winner, 250+ strikeouts, 1.60 ERA led the league....did NOT win the Cy Young
The Year of the Pitcher. At best Tiant would have come in second in either league in the Cy Young vote that season. Denny McClain and Bob Gibson won both the Cy Young and MVP in their respective leagues that season and deservedly so.

Tiant would lead the AL in Ls with 20 in 1969. Considering that there were four new franchises that season that seems odder than him not winning the Cy Young in '68.
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