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If years from now, when players are comfortable enough to talk about it, they all say the Astros where the only one doing it throughout 2017, then I will put an asterisk next to their pennant and title.

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How noble of you.

Baseballs supposed to care about cheating. You clearly do not.

TxAgPreacher said:

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I'd say it helped them as much as a slightly deflated football. The fact that we are fixated on it is silly. You explain how sign stealing can affect the game(in a legal way) but dont explain how a camera really affected the game. By pretending that a camera had anything to do with the outcome of any future road games is crazy.

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Scenario A: Dodgers player glances over into Astros dugout and sees the coach talking to the on-deck hitter and making a slight "bunting motion". Dodgers player relays it to his infield and when said batter squares to bunt, the defense is ready with the shift and makes the play with ease.

Scenario B: Dodgers staff has placed a hidden microphone in the Astros dugout. From the Dodgers clubhouse they hear the Astros coach talking to the on-deck hitter about bunting. Dodgers clubhouse relays it to the infield and when said batter squares to bunt, the defense is ready with the shift and makes the play with ease.


Both scenarios involve the opposing team "stealing" the strategy. Do you think both should be equally allowed?

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Baseballs supposed to care about cheating. You clearly do not.

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All smoke that has come out points to other teams having cheated using technology. You clearly only care about the teams you don't like doing it.

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Why are we treating the Astros like they deserve to be stoned for a minor offense when it did not provably change anything, ESPECIALLY when all the other teams are openly guilty of doing the same.

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No ones killing them, or firing the players who participated. Even Alex Cora won't be executed.

Aside: the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that they would have won without cheating...not me.

Did the Astros have microphones? I haven't seen this anywhere .

TxAgPreacher said:

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Did the Astros have microphones? I haven't seen this anywhere .

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That's not the question. Do you think those 2 scenarios are equal, or is one of them cheating?

I disagree about the burden of proof. Obviously nobody wants to kill them, but they do want unfair and disproportionate punishment for the Astros, and not for their team.

Texaggie7nine said:

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Baseballs supposed to care about cheating. You clearly do not.

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All smoke that has come out points to other teams having cheated using technology. You clearly only care about the teams you don't like doing it.

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Has there been proof provided to MLB about other teams cheating using technology post 2017-memo? I haven't seen this anywhere.

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All smoke that has come out points to other teams having cheated using technology. You clearly only care about the teams you don't like doing it.

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No. I am only against the team that won. I would be asking the same questions of the Dodgers if they won.

I also think the idea of baseball fans applauding cheating and choosing to do it again if it means winning is deplorable.

I also think it's embarrassing for everyone showing their ass here.

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I disagree about the burden of proof. Obviously nobody wants to kill them, but they do want unfair and disproportionate punishment for the Astros, and not for their team.

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No one cares about the other teams. They didn't win.

The Dodgers are on on their way to Buffalo Bills hell anyway. One would argue that they have been "fairly dealt with" concerning cheating.

Proposition Joe said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Baseballs supposed to care about cheating. You clearly do not.

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All smoke that has come out points to other teams having cheated using technology. You clearly only care about the teams you don't like doing it.

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Has there been proof provided to MLB about other teams cheating using technology post 2017-memo? I haven't seen this anywhere.

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The question is, what would MLB do with any proof provided if they can just cut the losses and call this a clean slate now that all the astros managers are fired and no one will do it anymore now that they know the repercussions?

The reports have stated interviewees have specified at least 8 other organizations that they know have cheated similarly in 2017.

diehard03 said:

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All smoke that has come out points to other teams having cheated using technology. You clearly only care about the teams you don't like doing it.

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No. I am only against the team that won. I would be asking the same questions of the Dodgers if they won.

I also think the idea of baseball fans applauding cheating and choosing to do it again if it means winning is deplorable.

I also think it's embarrassing for everyone showing their ass here.

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you just proved his point. you are not placing the blame fairly.

If other teams were cheating, then the team that won was still on an equal playing field so what difference does it make.

It doesn't mean I condone it, and am ok with cheating. I am upset that it happened. I was highly disappointed in my team for participating in it and for drawing this exact criticism that you and so many others are leveraging when it is so clear that they could have won it all without cheating. But I'm also upset that the league made it so easy to do and that because so many teams were doing it, the astros players that did it felt it was not really cheating, it was just competing on a level playing field.

Who is more foolish the fool, or the fool that argues with a fool?

Proposition Joe said:

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Felt it was not really cheating... DESPITE THEIR MANAGER DESTROYING THE MONITOR THEY USED TO DO IT MULTIPLE TIMES?

"The cheating didn't make them play any better so it shouldn't matter."

"Everybody else was doing it."

It's like arguing with a 7 year old.

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You only get to make this argument now because all the other teams that were doing it are still in the closet, even though they have been implicated. The very team you root for, more likely than not, used technology to cheat in 2017 and 2018,yet you don't care because "the astros won" so that's all should be ridiculed and anyone mentioning other teams cheating is just deflecting from that fact.

Proposition Joe said:

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Felt it was not really cheating... DESPITE THEIR MANAGER DESTROYING THE MONITOR THEY USED TO DO IT MULTIPLE TIMES?

"The cheating didn't make them play any better so it shouldn't matter."

"Everybody else was doing it."

It's like arguing with a 7 year old.

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I don't "know" if the cheating made them better or not, but as many fans on both sides have stated- why keep doing it if there was no benefit? My uncertainty stems from the fact that the Astros were a better road team than home on balance and won WS games in LA. I can't imagine they would keep doing it at home if there wasn't some edge to gain, but I also wonder why they felt the need to do it at all. Makes no sense to me, and it angers me to no end because the record proves they could have won it without the sign stealing.

Again, having better road production than home production isn't proof of anything either way -- many teams have higher road splits than home splits every season.

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I can't imagine they would keep doing it at home if there wasn't some edge to gain, but I also wonder why they felt the need to do it at all. Makes no sense to me, and it angers me to no end because the record proves they could have won it without the sign stealing.

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To me, it only really makes sense that they felt they had to because they believed the other teams were doing it too. In super competitive environments, if you believe your opponent is using something to gain an edge and is getting away with it, then you feel compelled to play by the same rules.

What would make no sense to me would be the astros players going along with all of it with no evidence that other teams were doing the same, and believing they were just getting one over on most of the league.

They also probably believed that they would not get in trouble for it because everyone was provably, and openly doing it too. I'm sure they saw nothing wrong with it, and considered it part of the game, and just gamesmanship that everyone was doing.

Proposition Joe said:

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Again, having better road production than home production isn't proof of anything either way -- many teams have higher road splits than home splits every season.

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It's impossible to prove or disprove the hypothetical at this point. My point was just for discussion. I think it' is valid, AGAIN, to state that the Astros were a great team in 2017 as proven by their incredible road record, and that it is reasonable justification that they "could" have won a title without the video crap. Maybe I believed in them more than they did themselves since they kept doing it. Of course there is no way to prove my opinion, but that is apparently all you will accept so I'll respectfully move along and let you continue to bang your drum.

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you just proved his point. you are not placing the blame fairly.

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No, I am. Losing is punishment enough.

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If other teams were cheating, then the team that won was still on an equal playing field so what difference does it make.

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It's on you to prove that it was still an equal playing field. I don't think anyone would agree that "nuh huh, they did it too" constitutes this.

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It doesn't mean I condone it, and am ok with cheating. I am upset that it happened. I was highly disappointed in my team for participating in it and for drawing this exact criticism that you and so many others are leveraging when it is so clear that they could have won it all without cheating.

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But we have no idea if they would have. Your team robbed everyone of that.

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But I'm also upset that the league made it so easy to do and that because so many teams were doing it, the astros players that did it felt it was not really cheating, it was just competing on a level playing field.

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This is just something someone says when they get caught. Everyone knew it was cheating.

"But officer, you're almost never radaring this street and everyone else goes 20 over every other day...."

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I think it' is valid, AGAIN, to state that the Astros were a great team in 2017 as proven by their incredible road record, and that it is reasonable justification that they "could" have won a title without the video crap.

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No ones debating they could have.

The issue making the jump that they WOULD have. We have no way of knowing this, and therefore, casts doubt on the championship.

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But we have no idea if they would have. Your team robbed everyone of that.

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Mike Fiers robbed everyone of that.


Whatever team won, would have most likely been guilty of using technology to steal signs. So all the teams would be robbing everyone of not knowing who would have won if no one cheated.

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This is just something someone says when they get caught. Everyone knew it was cheating.

"But officer, you're almost never radaring this street and everyone else goes 20 over every other day...."

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That is a good point. I agree, if you are caught, you get punished. I accept the punishment. What is dumb is all the other drivers who have sped down the same road going "look at what terrible person you are for speeding!" and when I say, "well we all know you speed" to you reply "where's your proof? We know for a fact you sped because you got a ticket!"

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Whatever team won, would have most likely been guilty of using technology to steal signs. So all the teams would be robbing everyone of not knowing who would have won if no one cheated.

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Pure conjecture.

Maybe we never know if the Dodgers win.

Karma's a *****.

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Karma's a *****.

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If you believe that, then I hope you are prepared for any information that comes out on your team.

But you know MLB will probably not bother with digging up the proof, so you sit content on your fake high horse.

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That is a good point. I agree, if you are caught, you get punished. I accept the punishment. What is dumb is all the other drivers who have sped down the same road going "look at what terrible person you are for speeding!" and when I say, "well we all know you speed" to you reply "where's your proof? We know for a fact you sped because you got a ticket!"

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I'd argue you aren't really accepting the punishment. You're refusing to acknowledge your ticket (ie, lose in pride in championship) because others would have got the ticket if they were driving on that road and not you.

That's the thing about cheating (and speeding). You might be completely correct that someone else would have gotten the punishment. But you did. That's how life works.

You can accept it and still think it's over the top, and a silly technicality.

diehard03 said:

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I think it' is valid, AGAIN, to state that the Astros were a great team in 2017 as proven by their incredible road record, and that it is reasonable justification that they "could" have won a title without the video crap.

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No ones debating they could have.

The issue making the jump that they WOULD have. We have no way of knowing this, and therefore, casts doubt on the championship.

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1. Yes, they are.

2. I agree with you.

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If you believe that, then I hope you are prepared for any information that comes out on your team.

But you know MLB will probably not bother with digging up the proof, so you sit content on your fake high horse

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My team has skirted international signing rules, signed wife beaters and protected others just to beat an 108 year old curse.

We've got another 100 years before the next one, so no worries here.

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The report specifically said there is no evidence that it affected the WS and there was no punishment of taking it away.

You don't get to add on the punishment, you are not the authority.

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I am not...nor do I think you should have it stripped. MLB had no desire to go down that road. That's why it's written that way. You know that.

Your penance is to it have the scandal referenced every time it's brought up. It will be a tagline in every article about every player on that roster.

I think a person of character probably wouldn't bring it up anymore either. You're allowed your memories and how it made you feel at the time - you didn't know any cheating when on. I also agree with the guy that said you should have team pride going forward and you can be excited about the 2020 season. But, i'd probably keep the trash talking down for awhile

I'm not a fan of trash talking. I've stayed away from the Stros vs Rangers thread and such even during our WS run. And I fully am still as prideful of our WS win as I was in 2017.