Why do you have evidence as good as that?

Because a former disgruntled Astro snitched on them and a national sindication did a story about it and the MLB was forced to dig up the dirt and take action.

What motivation does MLB have to go digging into the Dodgers regardless that there have been direct claims against them?

They already got the heads up in their investigation when told specifically of 8 other organizations that interviewees implicated. But what motivation does MLB really have to overturn any more stones if they think they have put a stop to the problem?

Yes I read it all.

Specifically

Quote:

---

The Mets are not alone to suspect the Dodgers are using some kind of techniques. The Brewers were reportedly suspicious the Dodgers were using video cameras to steal signs, according to The Athletic's Robert Murray.

---

Video cameras are technology last I checked.

I've never said what the Astros did wasn't cheating. All I have ever said is it's foolish to think they are the only team and your team is innocent, and its foolish to claim it won them the WS.

In a world where laws don't matter and all it takes is judges to overrule a sitting president and where the financial can do things with impunity that would land us all in prison, why is anyone shocked that a multi billion dollar sport has people who are bending the rules for an edge?

At the top level EVERYONE cheats. Steroids are ubiquitous as are every other one of the myriad of performance enhancing drugs. We have people in all sports using vast statistical analysis of their opponents to learn what a minor tic of their body means at any given point in time. This is a sport where players used pine tar everywhere, **** inside of their gloves, and a myriad of substances that were subsequently banned. Like half the things players did in the early 20th century would get them all major fines and bans from the sport.

This stuff is nothing more than modern real time statistical analysis. As that gets better and better, it will be immediate analysis. The game is going to have to adapt to this because it's not going away and will only get more and more intense simply because billions of dollars are at stake. With that kind of money, people will do anything and everything to get an edge.

If you want a pure sport then you should probably stick recreational kids leagues because that's the only area where you will find no cheating at all.

TxAgPreacher said:

---

It's funny that just because I disagree I'm delusional, dishonest, or dont understand, and am just as bad as someone who apologizes for rape.

---

I never said that you or any Astro fan was just as bad as someone who apologizes for rape or as someone who is a Hitler sympathizer. I attempted to say the exact opposite in previous posts. If I did not do a good job of getting that opinion across, I apologize. This is baseball. We're all Aggies. This is nowhere near those disgusting crimes and it should not be equated to them.

Quote:

---

By the letter of the law every single team uses tech to steal signs. I'm saying it was a microscopic advantage to have monitors in the dugout. This is equivalent of deflate gate. The Patriots got essentially no advantage from it but were crucified. The Astros did something that other teams were provably doing as well, and everyone can dismiss iPads and smartphones all the want, but that's naive. I think it wasn't a big deal and the fact that everyone is hysterical about this show how petty and vindictive people get . I called you out for being a triggered Dodgers fan because instead of being objective about the fact that this is a league wide "problem"

---

I did not say that it was not a league-wide issue. This thread is discussing the Astros in particular. The Astros were found to be violating MLB rules and that is cheating. Should any other (or all) of the 29 clubs be found guilty of the same or similar practices through MLB investigation, then we can condemn them as well. The fact of the matter is that right now, is that it is all speculation.

Quote:

---

you act like they stole the world series when the playing field was essentially level.

---

While there are certainly Dodger fans out there who are retroactively claiming the 2017 World Series championship, I am not one of them. I think that the cheating could have altered the outcome of that series, but the truth is that we will never know. The reason for concern is certainly warranted given what we know now. It is upsetting that now we have to sit and wonder when most of us had already recovered from World Series heartbreak (which, I'm sure you know from 2005 and again this year, is no fun).

Quote:

---

Having the same info they could have gotten from the live broadcast on an iPad doesnt help that much, and will only help them crack the code one pitch faster at best. That's why this is silly.

---

This is where I disagree, as others on this thread have. If you can know what pitch is coming, that gives you an advantage. Yes, you still have to hit the baseball, but it takes much of the guesswork out of it. No, I'm not saying that knowing the pitch would help me, a regular joe, hit a 100 MPH fastball or an exploding slider, but these are professionals who do this for a living. It absolutely could help them.

Quote:

---

SHOW HOW UPSET I AM ABOUT THE DOGERS LOSING

---

Yes, I'm upset they lost. It's been two years though. I'm sure Astro fans are upset about losing to Washington this year. I can certainly relate. Major League Baseball's investigation and their conclusion doesn't really care about my feelings, though.

Quote:

---

I'LL PRETEND LIKE I DONT HATE THE ASTROS AND AM OBJECTIVE!

---

Fun fact, I don't hate the Astros. I'm from the DFW area, but my aunt has been an Astro season ticket holder since the days in the Dome. I think I've been to more Astro games at Minute Maid with her than Rangers games in Arlington. Guys like Bags, Biggio, Roy O, Berkman, Lights Out Lidge and Brad Ausmus hold special places in my heart. I was with my aunt at Dodger Stadium on November 1, 2017 and was genuinely happy for her and the club that I've always considered my second favorite team. It's unfortunate that my heartbreak coincided with your defining moment, but I do not hate the Astros.

As far as being objective, I'm not sure how to convince you that I am in fact looking at this thing rationally. We're going to disagree on this, and that's okay.

You saw first hand the tribalism with the whole Johnny vs the world fiasco.

Looking back, us Aggie fans were probably too lenient, but also the media and other fans were too harsh. As usual the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

I didn't say the Dodgers were innocent and I didn't claim that stealing signs won the Astros the World Series or cost the Dodgers the World Series...

I said what the Astros did was cheating. It might have impacted the World Series, but we will never know. There is definitely grounds for that concern, just for baseball fans in general. I just so happen to be a Dodger fan, so it looks like I'm trying to claim a championship we did not win on some technicality. I'm not trying to do that.

If the Dodgers are found guilty, we can call them cheaters then.

Saying we can't know is a valid argument. Saying they won because of cheating is not. Not from what evidence we have.

Richard Zane said:

---

I didn't say the Dodgers were innocent and I didn't claim that stealing signs won the Astros the World Series or cost the Dodgers the World Series...

I said what the Astros did was cheating. It might have impacted the World Series, but we will never know. There is definitely grounds for that concern, just for baseball fans in general. I just so happen to be a Dodger fan, so it looks like I'm trying to claim a championship we did not win on some technicality. I'm not trying to do that.

If the Dodgers are found guilty, we can call them cheaters then.

---

no you said it gave them an unfair advantage, and you stated it as a fact.

I'm in agreement with you on all that. Our contention was on proof of trashcan being used in the WS and if there is smoke pointing to the Dodgers cheating too.

Without being rude, I think you might be misunderstanding me.

When I say that stealing signs gave Astro hitters an unfair advantage to hit the baseball, that is an unfair advantage. The measures they went through to give themselves that advantage was cheating. That is a fact.

Whether that advantage impacted the World Series, we will never know.

Richard Zane said:

---

STEALING SIGNS IS NOT ILLEGAL. USING TECHNOLOGY TO DO SO IS ILLEGAL.

I am baffled by how many people are missing that CRITICAL point.

The Astros cheated. That was proven. They gave themselves an unfair advantage at home by using technology to better steal signs and got caught. Regardless if you think that impacts their ability to hit the ball (it drastically does, when you know where the pitch is going and how it's going to move, you can hit it more easily), that's cheating.

---

sure I did.

TxAgPreacher said:

---

Richard Zane said:

---

STEALING SIGNS IS NOT ILLEGAL. USING TECHNOLOGY TO DO SO IS ILLEGAL.

I am baffled by how many people are missing that CRITICAL point.

The Astros cheated. That was proven. They gave themselves an unfair advantage at home by using technology to better steal signs and got caught. Regardless if you think that impacts their ability to hit the ball (it drastically does, when you know where the pitch is going and how it's going to move, you can hit it more easily), that's cheating.

---

sure I did.

---

Okay, so you're not misunderstanding me, you're just ignoring the facts and claiming that they aren't facts.

Knowing what's coming takes the guesswork out of hitting. That's logical, no? That's an advantage. Getting it through technology that is not available to both teams is, by definition, unfair. So the Astros had an unfair advantage at home. Checks out...

Why would teams steal signs in the first place if it didn't help the hitter?

Quote:

---

Saying we can't know is a valid argument. Saying they won because of cheating is not. Not from what evidence we have.

---

Ah, the whole "we can't confirm it on replay, so lets go with the call on the field" approach.

Still foolish.

And to take it a step further... the Astros are at the forefront of using analytics and technology. They start using technology to cheat, are warned by the league to cease immediately, and yet they persist, knowing that the penalties will be harsh. Now, if it didn't help them (they had well over 100 games to determine its effectiveness), then why in the hell did they continue to do it? They'd have to be the dumbest SOBs ever. And I'd have to be just as dumb to believe that's how it went down.

Of course using technology helped, that's why all the other teams did it too.

Astros at Home (MLB Rank)
Record: 48-33
BA: .279 (3rd)
OBP: .340 (11th)
SLG: .472 (4th)
HR: 115 (9th)

Astros on the Road
Record: 53-28
BA: .284 (1st)
OBP: .351 (1st)
SLG: .483 (1st)
Runs: 501 (1st)
HR: 123 (1st)

Here are the facts:
1) Those road stats are RIDICULOUSLY GOOD. Has to be among the best of all time
2) It CLEARLY didn't help them win very many (if any) games
3) If anyone disagrees with #2, I'd ask them how they were so successful on the road if they needed to cheat to win at home

I also don't agree that that the Astros had any info that a plant in the crowd, or just watching the game from the dugout, or field cannot get you. It still takes just as long to crack the other teams signals, and to pretend that this was an advantage is silly.

Quote:

---

2) It CLEARLY didn't help them win very many (if any) games

3) If anyone disagrees with #2, I'd ask them how they were so successful on the road if they needed to cheat to win at home

---

Again, it's really not that hard.

Face pitcher at Minute Maid, shell them...face them again at their house, shell them again because the pitcher has the Minute Maid outing on his mind.

Does this explain the entire home/road split? Of course not.

Again, we are talking about the validity of a championship. Maybe this swings its a few games. Maybe confidence levels of various pitchers change throughout the year. Maybe the Astros have to use up arms they didn't have to because they cheated.

You were 11-7 in the postseason. It's not crazy to think that cheating affected several postseasons wins in the end.

Yall need to quit talking like you went 11-0 in the postseason and cheated one time in April.

You're acting like the info they got from a camera one pitch earlier at best is such an advantage that it is THE reason they hit so well at home, and that magically made them even better on the road.... that's laughable.

The "they cheated but it didn't help them so it really wasn't cheating" is such a poor excuse.

Having a road OPS higher than your home OPS isn't some grand anomaly. All 4 AL divisional playoff teams did.

When sign stealing is part of the game and every team does it, then is it really cheating? Every team does it, and you can watch them doing it on their ipads, and if you think the playing field wasn't even then you're in la la land.

Quote:

---

You're acting like the info they got from a camera one pitch earlier at best is such an advantage that it is THE reason they hit so well at home, and that magically made them even better on the road.... that's laughable.

---

The other poster was right. You aren't reading.

I literally said it wasn't THE reason.

I do think, though, that your margin of victory in the postseason was slight enough that doubt is cast on your title.

Pitching/hitting confidence and reliever usage is a big deal in baseball. it's possible that you go into the playoffs a different team if you hadn't cheated. You needed 7 games twice to win the title. It's further possible that you don't win both those series if you didn't cheat.

Not saying it's definite. Saying it's possible. This is the risk you take when you cheat.

Quote:

---

When sign stealing is part of the game and every team does it, then is it really cheating? Every team does it, and you can watch them doing it on their ipads, and if you think the playing field wasn't even then you're in la la land.

---

I remember this from the Sermon on the Mount.

Quote:

---

Not saying it's definite. Saying it's possible. This is the risk you take when you cheat.

---

If years from now, when players are comfortable enough to talk about it, they all say the Astros where the only one doing it throughout 2017, then I will put an asterisk next to their pennant and title. .

I'd say it helped them as much as a slightly deflated football. The fact that we are fixated on it is silly. You explain how sign stealing can affect the game(in a legal way) but dont explain how a camera really affected the game. By pretending that a camera had anything to do with the outcome of any future road games is crazy.

It's just such an absurd series of events.

Astros player caught on national TV mocking Asians in dugout after a hit off of Darvish in World Series (receives a slap on the wrist).

Astros players tell media that Darvish was tipping his pitches and that's why they had success off of him.

Astros found to be cheating, likely against Darvish.



Sandwich in there buying low on a woman-beater and then one of your top brass flexing about it to a female reporter... and then the organization penning a hit piece on said reporter until the rest of the journalism community came out confirming her story.

And remember Reid Ryan throwing the Rangers under the bus in the media on shifting the home/away series for "hating hurricane victims"... before ultimately acknowledging that it was never about the hurricane victims and it was all about competitive advantage?

At some point you have to acknowledge that the way this organization was being run was bankrupt in a lot of ways.

The pharisees were so concerned with the letter of the law that they decided to selectively interpret it. They accused Jesus of working on the sabbath for eating while walking through a field, while being guilty of pulling their donkeys out of pits on the sabbath themselves. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I didn't cheat, but my original analogy is my point. Why are we treating the Astros like they deserve to be stoned for a minor offense when it did not provably change anything, ESPECIALLY when all the other teams are openly guilty of doing the same.

Quote:

---

At some point you have to acknowledge that the way this organization was being run was bankrupt in a lot of ways.

---

Thank you for this comedy. If you were a rangers fan, it would be even more historical.