DallasAg 94 said:

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TXAggie2011 said:

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You're spilling a lot of ink trying to compare different paths and journeys. But there's no reason, natural ability notwithstanding, why Rougned Odor's development should be behind any other 25 year old's. He's had 9 years of professional instruction in the United States and been given as long a leash as anyone.

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Oh... I think you've misread something. There isn't a single one of them - Solak, Guzman, Mazara, Calhoun - that is more developed than Odor. NONE. Not even Santana.

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I might need a translation. I view Odor as being fully developed . . . he will never get any better. Is that what you are saying?

South Platte said:

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DallasAg 94 said:

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TXAggie2011 said:

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You're spilling a lot of ink trying to compare different paths and journeys. But there's no reason, natural ability notwithstanding, why Rougned Odor's development should be behind any other 25 year old's. He's had 9 years of professional instruction in the United States and been given as long a leash as anyone.

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Oh... I think you've misread something. There isn't a single one of them - Solak, Guzman, Mazara, Calhoun - that is more developed than Odor. NONE. Not even Santana.

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I might need a translation. I view Odor as being fully developed . . . he will never get any better. Is that what you are saying?

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When the first pitch of next season is thrown, it will mark the 4th year in a row of expected improvement from Odor. The results? Will probably be similar to the last 3.

DallasAg 94 said:

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Ages:
Odor: Feb 3, 1994 (25yr.240days) - 820 MLB Games
Guzman: Oct 20, 1994 (8 months youner) - 210 MLB Games
Calhoun: Nov 4, 1994 (9 months younger) - 131 MLB Games
Solak: Jan 11, 1995 (11 months younger) - 33 MLB Games
Mazara: April 26, 1995 (14 months younger) - 537 MLB Games

Santana: Nov 7, 1990 (6+ years older) - 494 MLB Games <- 1st full MLB season was at age 28.

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If odor was a free agent tomorrow, how many teams sign him?

Pretty much anyone that could get him for league minimum.

DallasAg 94 said:

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South Platte said:

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DallasAg 94 said:

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TXAggie2011 said:

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You're spilling a lot of ink trying to compare different paths and journeys. But there's no reason, natural ability notwithstanding, why Rougned Odor's development should be behind any other 25 year old's. He's had 9 years of professional instruction in the United States and been given as long a leash as anyone.

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Oh... I think you've misread something. There isn't a single one of them - Solak, Guzman, Mazara, Calhoun - that is more developed than Odor. NONE. Not even Santana.

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I might need a translation. I view Odor as being fully developed . . . he will never get any better. Is that what you are saying?

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No.

I am saying that Odor is one of the most productive hitters, among the young hitters. That he has under-performed from where he should be. I would expect much better performance next season... and additional growth for 2-3 years after that. Like most players who hit their prime of 27-32.

I think it is unreasonable to say that since Odor is 25 and has 6 years in MLB, that his growth won't continue.

Why would someone think that Solak (24) and Calhoun (24) will continue to improve over the next few years, while Odor (25) will not?

From this article on FanGraphs from 2012:

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Last season the average age of a rookie was 24.5 in Major League Baseball.

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So, the majority of Rookies are making their debut at or older than Odor is. The average age at A- ball was the same age that Odor made his MLB debut. 4 years before the average.

In 2016 (22), Odor played 150 G for the Rangers and hit .271, with 33 HRs and 14 SB.
In 2018 (24), Odor played 129 G for the Rangers and hit .253, 2ith 18 HRs and 12 SB.

He has shown he is capable. Is he broken? Were those flukes? Has he been poisoned by money and no longer dedicated or no longer cares? I don't know. But if he only gets back to .253/18HRs, that is still a pretty impressive line. I think his ceiling is much, much higher.

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He has demonstrated an inability to adjust his approach over the last 3 seasons. He has seen a ton of MLB pitching and they have seen him. The finished product is a result of actual experience, regardless of age. He has shown nothing over the past 3 years that makes a team think that additional playing time is all he needs to figure it out.

Like it or not, Rangers get compared to the guys 250 miles south on I-45 who have all seemed to get better every year during their mid to late 20's.

However, as I say that, Hamilton, Beltre, Napoli, and Nelson Cruz made significant jumps after being in the league several years.

Solak and Calhoun? They haven't had the MLB experience to be able to determine their full development. Calhoun has at least done what it takes to get out of the minors and earn playing time. I'd like to think that defensive improvement is easier than developing an eye to lay off a ball 6 inches north of the strike zone.

DallasAg 94 said:

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Grapesoda2525 said:

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DallasAg 94 said:

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Ages:
Odor: Feb 3, 1994 (25yr.240days) - 820 MLB Games
Guzman: Oct 20, 1994 (8 months youner) - 210 MLB Games
Calhoun: Nov 4, 1994 (9 months younger) - 131 MLB Games
Solak: Jan 11, 1995 (11 months younger) - 33 MLB Games
Mazara: April 26, 1995 (14 months younger) - 537 MLB Games

Santana: Nov 7, 1990 (6+ years older) - 494 MLB Games <- 1st full MLB season was at age 28.

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If odor was a free agent tomorrow, how many teams sign him?

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If a team could sign any one (and only one) of those 6 players as a Serf... which one do they sign.

Every team would sign Odor.

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Mercy . . . I'll hope you are right about this guy, but he's never had more K's than 2019.

Can you at least provide an example of a player who has performed poorly over several seasons that still gets a huge chunk of playing time? Other than Chris Davis . . .

/thread

DallasAg 94 said:

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TXAggie2011 said:

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You're spilling a lot of ink trying to compare different paths and journeys. But there's no reason, natural ability notwithstanding, why Rougned Odor's development should be behind any other 25 year old's. He's had 9 years of professional instruction in the United States and been given as long a leash as anyone.

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Oh... I think you've misread something. There isn't a single one of them - Solak, Guzman, Mazara, Calhoun - that is more developed than Odor. NONE. Not even Santana.

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What do you think I misread? Are you sure you read my post correctly?

DallasAg 94 said:

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South Platte said:

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Mercy . . . I'll hope you are right about this guy, but he's never had more K's than 2019.

Can you at least provide an example of a player who has performed poorly over several seasons that still gets a huge chunk of playing time? Other than Chris Davis . . .

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Define poorly.

In 2018 he went .253, 18 HRs. That isn't a bad season.... Right?

He has hit 30+ HRs in 3 of the last 4 seasons.
He just led the Rangers in HRs and RBI.

Yes, he strikes out a ton. He gets hot and gets cold. He can be incredibly frustrating.

The irony of Odor is... he is EXACTLY the player Kinsler was, with the Rangers and Kinsler couldn't leave town fast enough for me. His popups to shallow left-center field late in the game with 2-outs and runners on base... when all we needed was a Sac or H, were a constant grind on my nerves.

Why then do I like Odor? Because Odor is 4 years younger than where Kinsler was, with the Rangers. And because if he can get his BA to .250, and he continues to hit HRs like he is... He will be someone to remember.

Rob Deer. From '89-91(to age 30) went 398G, .199, 78 HRs, 480 SO.

He went on to play 263 more games, hit .224, with 57 HRs and 330 SO.

Kinsler is a career .269 hitter with a 162Game avg of 22 HRs, 78 RBI, and 107 R. He has spent his career batting 1-3.
Odor is a career .240 hitter with a 162Game avg of 27 HRs, 85 RBI and 82 R.

Dan Uggla is a career .241 hitter with 1346G, 235 HRs and 1341 SO

Dan McAuliffe ('60-75) is a career .247, in 1763 G, with 197 HRs

Todd Frasier ('11-'19) is a career .243, in 1186, 1037 SO.
- '17: .213, 27 HRs in 147 G with 125 SO
- '18: .213, 18 HRs in 115 G, with 112 SO
- '19: .251, 21 HRs in 133 G, 2ith 106 SO

Khris Davis is a career .244 hitter. He is at .220, 23 HRs this year.

Melvin Upton went:
'13: .184, 9 HR, in 126 G
'14: .208, 12 HR, in 141 G
went on the play 236 more games.

Matt Joyce went:
'15 - .174, 5 HRs in 93 G
'18 - .208, 7 HRs in 83 G
In 2019, he is .295, 7 HR in 129 G.

How long you think Pujols gets trotted out there?

Kole Calhoun
'18: .208, 19 HR, 133 SO in 137 G
'19: .232, 33 HR, 162 SO in 152 G

Even our own... Joey Gall: .212 Career hitter
'17 (23): .209, 41 HR, 196 SO in 145 G
'18 (24): .206, 40 HRs, 2017 SO in 148 G

Tell me you were a Justin Smoak fan?! I never liked the guy.
'12 (25): .217, 19 HR, 132 G
'14 (27): .202, 7 HR, 80 G
'16 (29): .217, 14 HR, 126 G
'19 (32): .208, 22 HR, 121 G
Career .231, 191 HR. Hit 38 HRs in '17, but never more than 25 in any other season.

Did I mention Odor has 3 30+ HR seasons?!

Odor is 3rd in HRs for AL 2B. 2nd in RBI

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Good situational hitting doesn't do any good when the team stinks. I look at stats from top to bottom. His game has massive holes.

Batting avg is always near the bottom of the league

Rarely if ever walks

Very inconsistent. Hot / cold guy.

Terrible base runner

Commits lackadaisical errors at second base

I just don't get why you're his fan boy.

Quote:

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The irony of Odor is... he is EXACTLY the player Kinsler was, with the Rangers and Kinsler couldn't leave town fast enough for me. His popups to shallow left-center field late in the game with 2-outs and runners on base... when all we needed was a Sac or H, were a constant grind on my nerves.

Why then do I like Odor? Because Odor is 4 years younger than where Kinsler was, with the Rangers. And because if he can get his BA to .250, and he continues to hit HRs like he is... He will be someone to remember.

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Odor has laid down 3 sac bunts in 4 seasons and just had 1 sac fly in a 581 plate appearance season and you're going to tell us you wanted to run Ian Kinsler out of town for not sacrificing enough?

Odor was about 4 years ahead of Kinsler about 5 years ago. Then Odor bombed 2 out of 3 seasons, including his aged-25 season. Ian Kinsler had an All-Star caliber season at age 25.

Kinsler never would have dreamed of having such a bad season as Odor has had 2 of the last 3 years. And Odor can currently only dream of having has good a year as Kinsler started churning out by 25.

Quote:

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His popups to shallow left-center field late in the game with 2-outs and runners on base... when all we needed was a Sac or H, were a constant grind on my nerves.

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Innings 7 through 9: One 25 year old hit .261, with 3 SHs and 2 SFs. The other hit .241 with no sacrifices of any sort.

If Cole was on the Yankees, Red Sox or either LA team is there any doubt he beats JV for the Cy Young?

DallasAg 94 said:

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South Platte said:

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Mercy . . . I'll hope you are right about this guy, but he's never had more K's than 2019.

Can you at least provide an example of a player who has performed poorly over several seasons that still gets a huge chunk of playing time? Other than Chris Davis . . .

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Define poorly.

In 2018 he went .253, 18 HRs. That isn't a bad season.... Right?

He has hit 30+ HRs in 3 of the last 4 seasons.
He just led the Rangers in HRs and RBI.

Yes, he strikes out a ton. He gets hot and gets cold. He can be incredibly frustrating.

The irony of Odor is... he is EXACTLY the player Kinsler was, with the Rangers and Kinsler couldn't leave town fast enough for me. His popups to shallow left-center field late in the game with 2-outs and runners on base... when all we needed was a Sac or H, were a constant grind on my nerves.

Why then do I like Odor? Because Odor is 4 years younger than where Kinsler was, with the Rangers. And because if he can get his BA to .250, and he continues to hit HRs like he is... He will be someone to remember.

Rob Deer. From '89-91(to age 30) went 398G, .199, 78 HRs, 480 SO.

He went on to play 263 more games, hit .224, with 57 HRs and 330 SO.

Kinsler is a career .269 hitter with a 162Game avg of 22 HRs, 78 RBI, and 107 R. He has spent his career batting 1-3.
Odor is a career .240 hitter with a 162Game avg of 27 HRs, 85 RBI and 82 R.

Dan Uggla is a career .241 hitter with 1346G, 235 HRs and 1341 SO

Dan McAuliffe ('60-75) is a career .247, in 1763 G, with 197 HRs

Todd Frasier ('11-'19) is a career .243, in 1186, 1037 SO.
- '17: .213, 27 HRs in 147 G with 125 SO
- '18: .213, 18 HRs in 115 G, with 112 SO
- '19: .251, 21 HRs in 133 G, 2ith 106 SO

Khris Davis is a career .244 hitter. He is at .220, 23 HRs this year.

Melvin Upton went:
'13: .184, 9 HR, in 126 G
'14: .208, 12 HR, in 141 G
went on the play 236 more games.

Matt Joyce went:
'15 - .174, 5 HRs in 93 G
'18 - .208, 7 HRs in 83 G
In 2019, he is .295, 7 HR in 129 G.

How long you think Pujols gets trotted out there?

Kole Calhoun
'18: .208, 19 HR, 133 SO in 137 G
'19: .232, 33 HR, 162 SO in 152 G

Even our own... Joey Gall: .212 Career hitter
'17 (23): .209, 41 HR, 196 SO in 145 G
'18 (24): .206, 40 HRs, 2017 SO in 148 G

Tell me you were a Justin Smoak fan?! I never liked the guy.
'12 (25): .217, 19 HR, 132 G
'14 (27): .202, 7 HR, 80 G
'16 (29): .217, 14 HR, 126 G
'19 (32): .208, 22 HR, 121 G
Career .231, 191 HR. Hit 38 HRs in '17, but never more than 25 in any other season.

Did I mention Odor has 3 30+ HR seasons?!

Odor is 3rd in HRs for AL 2B. 2nd in RBI

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You put a lot of effort into that post. Are you retired??

I'm a huge Khris Davis fan, mostly because he is a modern version of Vlad Guerrero/Rangers killer. Other than him, there aren't any guys on that list that I would expect to be on a playoff team.

Smoak . . . poor guy. The Cliff Lee trade was beautiful. We win the 2011 World Series if he stays with us, but his injuries would have killed us the following years.

IIRC, Kinsler was our leadoff hitter, so producing runs was not his responsibility.

I liked Kinsler, but there are plenty of viable substitutes out there. Hopefully we can find one.

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That's because the Rangers no longer value Sacs... of any sort... and their position in the lineup is different. You can't compare them. I wasn't comparing them. And you know that. You've either never seen Kinsler play, or just being obtuse. You make silly little comments about too much information, then decide to project non-arguments to justify your point. Then, you'll argue cherry-picking statistics because you know you lost the point.

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You absolutely compared them. Multiple times. And my only point, if we're getting into that, is it blows my mind that someone would want Ian Kinsler run out of town for not playing smart and fundamental but then come around and toot Odor's horn. And I'm not naturally inclined to talk up Kinsler's baseball smarts. I thought Ian Kinsler was a ****ing muppet.



p.s. 10 Rangers had more sac flies this year than Rougned Odor. In 2017, Rougned Odor played every game, hit .204 with a .649 OPS and he didn't lay down a single sac bunt---but 10 other Rangers did.

Odor is my least favorite ranger over the last 10 years or so. Mitch Moreland was a close second, I thought JD should've gone "all in" at the time and spent big to acquire a good or proven one during our World Series years. I also got sick of seeing us give mitch a starting spot then seeing him get hurt every single year, then subsequently bring him back for another year!

I loved the fielder trade! I thought it was amazing at the time. I was high fiving other ranger fans like crazy. First base was always a weak spot in our lineup when we were really good. I thought fielder was going to come in and destroy home runs to right field. I also liked that the trade because it gave Profar room to work and we'd finally get to see the #1 prospect in all of baseball.

I guess dombrowski pulled a fast one on us with the medical reports because nobody in the rangers organization saw fielders neck problem coming. That trade ended up being an unmitigated disaster and we're still paying for it to this very day.

Why do I bring it up you ask? Well....... we pretty much went from Kinsler to profar..... then Profar got hurt again..... and that led to the rise of Odor. As for first base? We went from mitch to fielder..... oh wait fielder is hurt? Ok let's put a bunch of random guys there until condor is ready. Oh condor can't hit. Great.

We would've been better off not making those trades. I wasn't huge fans of Kinsler or mitch either, but those guys can play and have played circles around the jokers we're running out there now at those positions.

Grapesoda2525 said:

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I loved the fielder trade! I thought it was amazing at the time. I was high fiving other ranger fans like crazy. First base was always a weak spot in our lineup when we were really good. I thought fielder was going to come in and destroy home runs to right field. I also liked that the trade because it gave Profar room to work and we'd finally get to see the #1 prospect in all of baseball.

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You liked us trading a grumpy Kinsler for a guy weighing 4 bills? I was amazed at the sheer height of Fielder's popups. That's about it. We had a cheap option at 1B with Moreland who was fine.

I guess it was a grasping at straws move to try and get back to the WS. Sometimes those moves paralyze you if they fail miserably.

Fielder was an iron man when they traded for him. 8 straight seasons of 157 games or more, and had missed one game in the previous 5 years. Maybe they could have done more on the physical evaluation, but that was mostly downright ****ty luck. It would have been a bad contract by the end of the deal, but most are these days.

I don't remember there being very many problems with fielder except for his weight and his glove.

He drew walks, hit for power, hit for a high average, and didn't strike out much. There was a lot to like about him when we acquired him.

DannyDuberstein said:

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Odor is my least favorite ranger over the last 10 years or so

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Thanks for clarifying. I don't think most of us realized this.

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He also really loathes Jeff Heath.

Am I allowed to use this thread to complain about our inability to hit to the opposite field? Or do we simply have enough issues to gripe about for now? TIA