Is sales tax collected on concessions and merchandise sold at the Rangers games?
Rangers to implode ballpark, build new stadium
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Last: 7 yr ago by TXAggie2011
Also, Arlington is paying for part of the stadium, because eventually someone else will cut the check. I take it that is not a game the city's leadership was willing to pay.
I don't like indoor baseball or taxpayer funded stadiums (especially when the current stadium is in good shape), but I see where the desire for both come from. I can't complain about a shiny new stadium, but it'll definitely take some getting used to.
All I ask is PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE go back to an analog out of town scoreboard. That digital OOT board bugs the everliving s*** out of me. Keep the classic ballpark look and I'll be happy.
All I ask is PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE go back to an analog out of town scoreboard. That digital OOT board bugs the everliving s*** out of me. Keep the classic ballpark look and I'll be happy.
quote:I think the threat of moving the team has been overrated. SOmething like 70% of ticket sales come from the 817 area code. A move to Dallas would certainly gain some fans but im not convinced it would make up for all of the fans they would lose. There's also the issue of how to pay for it since right now Arlington is one of the few cities in the area that is under their sales tax cap.That added to the fact of where to put a stadium in Dallas. Near downtown? Thats a traffic nightmare worse than what they have now. Fair park? Good luck getting anything done in that area or tearing down stuff to build. Fort Worth might have a shot but you would pretty much ensure Dallas area fans would stop coming to the game. Could the team go elsewhere? Sure. But I dont thing its as big as people have made it out to be.
Also, Arlington is paying for part of the stadium, because eventually someone else will cut the check. I take it that is not a game the city's leadership was willing to pay.
The concern was big enough for the city to approach the team first. That never happens.
And just for fun, let's look at some of the things that $500 million could be used for.
Public transportation- Up until 2013 Arlington had the unique distinction of being the largest city in America with no public transportation. That crown was technically lost when they bought two buses and started a bus route. But lets not kid ourselves. It has a grand total of 3 stops and runs between UTA, Cowboys Stadium, and the Centreport TRE Station.
It's a joke calling this route public transportation. $500 million could go a long way into starting a bus system or even trying to work in a light rail stop somewhere near the stadiums.
Police-The Arlington PD is aging out. Lots of officers are leaving at a rate faster than they are being replaced. Maybe you could use that money to purchase body cams for all officers.
Streets/Public Works-Arlington streets are in rough shape in many areas of the city. This money could speed up the replacement and repair of streets. The city has begun to change street lights on major roads to low energy LED type bulbs. We could expand that to All lamps in the city.
Libraries-Although the main branch of the public library is being rebuilt a lot of the smaller neighborhood ones are outdated and lack funding for programs within the library. Irving has invested a lot of money into the library program that has made it into one of the best(if not the best) in the DFW area. They have numerous programs, author visits, etc. that all go towards serving the public.
Parks-No brainer here, parks are always a good safe bet. Lake Arlington has had serious flood problems over the past two years. The city recently decided to close the "yacht" club and demolish the building taking away the only public boat storage area. A redesign and new public marina would be nice.
Do Nothing-I know, I know, its a crazy idea. But what if we simply allowed the taxes to expire? Its a novel concept but there is nothing that says we have to continue a tax once it is started. It might be nice to pay a little less in taxes over the next 30 years.
These are just a few ideas the money could be spent on. And for what its worth, they are all issues Mayor Williams included in his platform when he was running for Mayor last year. He also promised a fresh and fiscally responsible approach to taxes and protecting taxpayers.
Public transportation- Up until 2013 Arlington had the unique distinction of being the largest city in America with no public transportation. That crown was technically lost when they bought two buses and started a bus route. But lets not kid ourselves. It has a grand total of 3 stops and runs between UTA, Cowboys Stadium, and the Centreport TRE Station.
It's a joke calling this route public transportation. $500 million could go a long way into starting a bus system or even trying to work in a light rail stop somewhere near the stadiums.
Police-The Arlington PD is aging out. Lots of officers are leaving at a rate faster than they are being replaced. Maybe you could use that money to purchase body cams for all officers.
Streets/Public Works-Arlington streets are in rough shape in many areas of the city. This money could speed up the replacement and repair of streets. The city has begun to change street lights on major roads to low energy LED type bulbs. We could expand that to All lamps in the city.
Libraries-Although the main branch of the public library is being rebuilt a lot of the smaller neighborhood ones are outdated and lack funding for programs within the library. Irving has invested a lot of money into the library program that has made it into one of the best(if not the best) in the DFW area. They have numerous programs, author visits, etc. that all go towards serving the public.
Parks-No brainer here, parks are always a good safe bet. Lake Arlington has had serious flood problems over the past two years. The city recently decided to close the "yacht" club and demolish the building taking away the only public boat storage area. A redesign and new public marina would be nice.
Do Nothing-I know, I know, its a crazy idea. But what if we simply allowed the taxes to expire? Its a novel concept but there is nothing that says we have to continue a tax once it is started. It might be nice to pay a little less in taxes over the next 30 years.
These are just a few ideas the money could be spent on. And for what its worth, they are all issues Mayor Williams included in his platform when he was running for Mayor last year. He also promised a fresh and fiscally responsible approach to taxes and protecting taxpayers.
Discussion on the Rangers BP here:
http://itsjustbanter.com/2016/05/24/episode-344/
About the 48 minute mark (some NSFW language).
http://itsjustbanter.com/2016/05/24/episode-344/
About the 48 minute mark (some NSFW language).
quote:If 70% of STH come from the 817 area code and peopel in the 817 area code are voting and approve they are serving themselves. Additionally, any area code that voted on this would be the area code (presumably) of greatest STH. If the BPiA became the BPiFrisco, you'd see their AC as the dominate STH, likewise with 214 and Dallas.quote:I think the threat of moving the team has been overrated. SOmething like 70% of ticket sales come from the 817 area code. A move to Dallas would certainly gain some fans but im not convinced it would make up for all of the fans they would lose. There's also the issue of how to pay for it since right now Arlington is one of the few cities in the area that is under their sales tax cap.That added to the fact of where to put a stadium in Dallas. Near downtown? Thats a traffic nightmare worse than what they have now. Fair park? Good luck getting anything done in that area or tearing down stuff to build. Fort Worth might have a shot but you would pretty much ensure Dallas area fans would stop coming to the game. Could the team go elsewhere? Sure. But I dont thing its as big as people have made it out to be.
Also, Arlington is paying for part of the stadium, because eventually someone else will cut the check. I take it that is not a game the city's leadership was willing to pay.
Here is map of ACs
East of Arlington is DFW and the swamps of Grand Prarie. There was very little on 30 between Dallas and Arlington and getting to RBiA from the 214 AC has been impossible, until 161 finished and 30 was reconstructed. Then, go North on 360 and you have the 817 Mid Cities. Go West and 817 FW. I'm sure if you look at the population density within 10-15 miles of Arlington and it is probably about 70% 817.
If you don't think RBiA could have landed in Collin County, I think you are mistaken. I think the Frisco RoughRiders are bringing in 4,500 per game for a AA team. FC Dallas averages 16,000.
Was there interest by Frisco? I don't know, but Arlington was smart to not wait..
quote:Keep in mind by partnering with the City of Arlington, the stadium can be considered exempt not only from City of Arlington Taxes, but JPS, Tarrant County and ISD Taxes.
Also, Arlington is paying for part of the stadium, because eventually someone else will cut the check. I take it that is not a game the city's leadership was willing to pay.
From this link, it amounts to about $23M/yr for an $800M stadium.
$11M to Arlington ISD
$1.8M JPS
$1.2M TCJC
$2.1M Tarrant County
$5.1M City of Arlington
So, back to my point... if the Rangers were to do this without the City, they would pay $23M in Taxes, along with the $50-75M Capital Investment.
That's $100M/yr pulled from the viability of the team.
For 3M attendance, you would be adding $33/ticket.
quote:I think someone calculated DART could provide chauffeur service for every rider they currently support and still save money.
And just for fun, let's look at some of the things that $500 million could be used for.
Public transportation- Up until 2013 Arlington had the unique distinction of being the largest city in America with no public transportation. That crown was technically lost when they bought two buses and started a bus route. But lets not kid ourselves. It has a grand total of 3 stops and runs between UTA, Cowboys Stadium, and the Centreport TRE Station.
It's a joke calling this route public transportation. $500 million could go a long way into starting a bus system or even trying to work in a light rail stop somewhere near the stadiums.
Public transportation is a bigger waste of money than a Stadium. Good for Arlington for not getting sucked into such a waste. See... they ARE smart.
From their website:
https://www.dart.org/about/dartfacts.asp
Mindboggling
They have 92.5 million passengers trips for an Operating Budget of $971.1M comes to about $10.50.
https://www.dart.org/about/dartfacts.asp
quote:
FY 2016 Operating Budget: $494.9 million
FY 2016 Capital Budget: $278.3 million
FY 2016 Debt Service Budget: $197.8 million
FY 2016 Total Budget: $971.1 million
FY 2015 Systemwide Ridership (all modes): 92.5 million passenger trips
Mindboggling
They have 92.5 million passengers trips for an Operating Budget of $971.1M comes to about $10.50.
quote:Wishful thinking that they would go that far north. It just doesnt make sense from a numbers point of of view. The potential customer base is smaller for starters. I think its great that the RoughRiders bring in 4500 per game. But to move the Rangers there you are asking that area to average more than 33K per game more games at a higher cost per ticket and more expensive concessions. Then theres the issue of effectively killing the RoughRiders attendance figures. Why go to a RoughRiders game when you have an MLB park down the road? But hey since the Rangers own the RoughRiders who cares?
If you don't think RBiA could have landed in Collin County, I think you are mistaken. I think the Frisco RoughRiders are bringing in 4,500 per game for a AA team. FC Dallas averages 16,000.
quote:Public Transportation is a public service just like education, street lights, libraries, firefighters, etc. It doesnt always turn a profit nor should it. A reliable bus system in arlington would be great for the citizens of arlington.
Public transportation is a bigger waste of money than a Stadium. Good for Arlington for not getting sucked into such a waste. See... they ARE smart.
quote:
Just know that some indoor fields are superior to others.
I'm certain that some pairs of jorts are better than other pairs of jorts.
quote:
Wishful thinking that they would go that far north. It just doesnt make sense from a numbers point of of view. The potential customer base is smaller for starters. I think its great that the RoughRiders bring in 4500 per game. But to move the Rangers there you are asking that area to average more than 33K per game more games at a higher cost per ticket and more expensive concessions. Then theres the issue of effectively killing the RoughRiders attendance figures. Why go to a RoughRiders game when you have an MLB park down the road? But hey since the Rangers own the RoughRiders who cares?
Maybe Irving, Farmers Branch, Lewisville. I agree it would be much to ask, but if the Rangers were to move, then the Rough Riders could move to Arlington and play in RBiA. You be asking less per game at lower cost per ticket and less expensive concessions.
quote:
Public Transportation is a public service just like education, street lights, libraries, firefighters, etc. It doesnt always turn a profit nor should it. A reliable bus system in arlington would be great for the citizens of arlington.
That's why it is called public transportation. But why should the government be providing a service that competes with private industry?! Why would Arlington need any more transportation within the city than it has? If transportation from Arlington to Dallas or FW were such a great thing, it would exist.
Don't get me wrong... I'm not a fan of subsidizing sports and spending Tax money on private investments.
I send my kids to private schools and our ISD just passed a huge bond to replace the expiring bonds. I no more like paying for schools we'll never use, than you probably feel about RBiA.
quote:To be more thorough, they recoup some of that on ridership and advertising. Ridership has almost doubled in the past decade, as public transportation is a long term investment in that regard---particularly when attempting to tear down the cultural barriers to it that exist in DFW. That includes both the populace's attitudes and our building habits.
Mindboggling
They have 92.5 million passengers trips for an Operating Budget of $971.1M comes to about $10.50.
Accessible public transportation has also long been shown to have positive affects on tourism and business.
Now, also consider the amount saved due to taking almost 200,000 people a day out of personal vehicles and at least into a bus if not off of roads altogether.
Its also a sly, yet proven, way to increase agglomeration--increased density--of populations and that makes running cities all the round more economically efficient.
Further, it creates jobs and a big chunk of their expenses are seen again in the local economy.
And it is suddenly not quite as mindboggling.
quote:The smartest thing Arlington did in this arena, if we're calling Arlington smart, is let them build the TRE just on the other side of their city limits so that there is public transportation between Arlington, Dallas, and Fort Worth without Arlington having to do anything on their own.quote:That's why it is called public transportation. But why should the government be providing a service that competes with private industry?! Why would Arlington need any more transportation within the city than it has? If transportation from Arlington to Dallas or FW were such a great thing, it would exist.
Public Transportation is a public service just like education, street lights, libraries, firefighters, etc. It doesnt always turn a profit nor should it. A reliable bus system in arlington would be great for the citizens of arlington.
I don't understand the comment about not competing with private industry. What private industry are they competing with? Are you referring to Uber and rideshares?
People riding in their own cars use public roads to move around. That's not a private industry. Its just a less expensive per person industry.
Libraries have truly direct private competition---are you saying cities should get rid of libraries?
Nevertheless, it is a public service and I hate that folks in Arlington, particularly those of low income, don't have any options to move about the area.
Rangers were never going to move to Frisco. It's been said a dozen times in this thread already -- they rely far too much on the FW area for attendance. They aren't going to look to try and replace a pretty loyal fanbase with a new one.
I'd wager at least 50% of the season ticket holder base hails from Arlington and the west of it.
I'd wager at least 50% of the season ticket holder base hails from Arlington and the west of it.
Also, DMN reported that aside from the $500 million cap, Arlington agreed to purchase a 49 acre tract of land and lease it back to the rangers. This would mean no money would really change hands but that the Rangers would avoid paying taxes on the property.
quote:
I don't like indoor baseball or taxpayer funded stadiums (especially when the current stadium is in good shape), but I see where the desire for both come from. I can't complain about a shiny new stadium, but it'll definitely take some getting used to.
All I ask is PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE go back to an analog out of town scoreboard. That digital OOT board bugs the everliving s*** out of me. Keep the classic ballpark look and I'll be happy.
This second paragraph x100000
I thought I was the only one who felt like this. Let's go from a format where we can see all games at once with a nice, classic feel, to a system where we see four games at once in blurry digital format, and you have to cycle through San Diego/Colorado type games in order to get to the division scores. Heck I'd even work the manual OOT scoreboard for free. Always thought that would be a fun job.
quote:That 49 acres is not currently owned by the Rangers, correct?
Also, DMN reported that aside from the $500 million cap, Arlington agreed to purchase a 49 acre tract of land and lease it back to the rangers. This would mean no money would really change hands but that the Rangers would avoid paying taxes on the property.
The CoA has the threat of Eminent Domain that the Rangers don't have, when purchasing that land.
This is the part that sickens me the most. When the City of Dallas went to purchase the land for AAC, they did so with ED. They took far more land than necessary for the stadium. Hillwood Development and the Mavs were both owned by Perot Jr. For Perot, they were gifted not only the land for the stadium, but the land surrounding it, for their development. The belief was... the value and development of the land around the stadium was a huge opportunity and if they were putting the stadium there, they should get the benefit of increased value (and control) around the stadium.
The more I process this whole deal, the more I side against Arlington giving so much. But, it's not my city.
Also, they are about to discuss this on the ticket.
I went once and sat squinting and baking in the Texas sun and we didn't have cheap seats. That was it for me. Please put a cover on the new stadium.
Arlington mayor Jeff Williams was interviewed by KRLD on Friday. When asked about public transportation he mentioned exploring exciting options with DART, Uber, and Lyft.
What the ****? Uber and Lyft?
What the ****? Uber and Lyft?
What was the reason for getting rid of the old board anyway?
quote:
Arlington mayor Jeff Williams was interviewed by KRLD on Friday. When asked about public transportation he mentioned exploring exciting options with DART, Uber, and Lyft.
What the ****? Uber and Lyft?
Uber and Lyft are good services, but not the solution to traffic Jams and seeking affordable transportation options.
Oh well.
INteresting thread.
I am a born and raised Ranger fan and grew up at Arlington Stadium. THe Ballpark opened my senior year in High school. I lived in Houston from 2000-2006 and went to countless games at MMP. Back then, and I did not know this had changed until reading this thread, they would typically open the roof after sunset for most of the year. I really liked MMP, and that may have been the reason why.
I was back in the metroplex from 2012-2014 and only went to I think 3 games. I love the Ballpark. I think it is a cathedral. It is also a miserably hot place for half the year and I would not go with free tickets during those times.
I am a born and raised Ranger fan and grew up at Arlington Stadium. THe Ballpark opened my senior year in High school. I lived in Houston from 2000-2006 and went to countless games at MMP. Back then, and I did not know this had changed until reading this thread, they would typically open the roof after sunset for most of the year. I really liked MMP, and that may have been the reason why.
I was back in the metroplex from 2012-2014 and only went to I think 3 games. I love the Ballpark. I think it is a cathedral. It is also a miserably hot place for half the year and I would not go with free tickets during those times.
Surprise, surprise, surprise. The deal is worse than initially reported.
http://www.wfaa.com/mb/news/local/investigates/experts-new-arlington-stadium-deal-among-the-worst-in-the-country/251473853
http://www.wfaa.com/mb/news/local/investigates/experts-new-arlington-stadium-deal-among-the-worst-in-the-country/251473853
quote:
"So who derives the benefits from building this new stadium? And it comes as no surprise to anyone: the primary beneficiaries are owners and players It means an increased value for the franchise. It means more money for the owners and players."
Well no ****. Great analysis by some JUCO professor in Illinois. Quality source there
quote:feel bad for the citizens of arlington. they're getting screwed
Surprise, surprise, surprise. The deal is worse than initially reported.
http://www.wfaa.com/mb/news/local/investigates/experts-new-arlington-stadium-deal-among-the-worst-in-the-country/251473853
The citizens of Arlington still have the opportunity to vote approval (or not) of this deal, do they not?
Or do I misunderstand the politics and the Arlington city leaders have the authority to force this deal without voter approval?
Or do I misunderstand the politics and the Arlington city leaders have the authority to force this deal without voter approval?
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We have to vote on it.Thing now is making sure everyone is aware of how bad of a deal it is.
quote:
Eckstein said the only time he recalls a similar deal was Arlington's agreement with Dallas Cowboy's owner Jerry Jones to build AT&T Stadium.
So the only other similar deal is from the highly successful one right next door?
Whether it's a good deal or not is up for debate, but I know this - counting an "admissions/parking surcharge" that stays with the team as some sort of missed tax revenue to the city is ridiculous. That "tax" is simply part of the price of admission.
quote:We've not voted yes for it quite yet.quote:feel bad for the citizens of arlington. they're getting screwed
Surprise, surprise, surprise. The deal is worse than initially reported.
http://www.wfaa.com/mb/news/local/investigates/experts-new-arlington-stadium-deal-among-the-worst-in-the-country/251473853
(I'm sure it will happen out of simple blind loyalty and want of "prestige", whether its the correct move or not.)
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