For a long time, I thought it was too early to make the comparison. It's been probably a couple years now where the discussion is legitimate. I still have Jordan over LeBron pretty easily, but the argument has merit now, imo.

It would be nice to read.a thread like this and have an actual debate going on. Instead it's a good debate with idiots posting gifs of Jordan scoring easy and acting like that's how defense was played back then. Especially considering how many rules have been changed in the 2000s to handicap defenses

Same here, I am the same age as Lebron and remember the hype when he was in HS. ESPN used to show a lot of his games when he was a senior in HS, and I remember watching and thinking he could be the next MJ. Ive never seen a player dominate the way he did in HS, and he still does it today.

Frok said:

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One can dream right?

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Had Houston knocked off the Warriors and then won the title, they may have gotten Durant, given his history.

I'm too young to have seen Jordan in his prime, so I won't join the debate, although I do think it's a valid discussion. I will say this though, LeBron was dubbed the next Jordan when he was 16. He was on the cover of Sports Illustrated magazine as "The Chosen One" at 17. Those are tremendous expectations set at such a young age, and I'm sure ton's of players would have wilted under the pressure and never made it. But for LeBron to not have only met those expectations, but surpassed them by a long shot, is incredible.

I also don't understand how so many people hate him. The decision I guess? Even though he raised money for kids by doing it. If Jordan was playing in today's age with all the social media, I think he would be much more hated and maybe more people would lean towards LeBron in the GOAT debate.

Iowaggie said:

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Frok said:

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One can dream right?

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Had Houston knocked off the Warriors and then won the title, they may have gotten Durant, given his history.

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If he is crushed in the finals, he will likely go somewhere. Why not Houston.

Some people on here are claiming that Jordan is better because he had to play in a tougher era. So, let's look at that.
NBA League averages in 1998 (Jordan's 6th championship) vs. 2018

1998 2018
Points 95.6 106.3
FG % 45% 46%
ORtg 105 109
3Pt Att 13 29
FT Att 26 22
TOs 15 14
Steals 8 8
Blocks 5 5


Have the rules really changed the game that much? I don't think so. What's changed is a more than doubling of 3pt attempts, which has led to increased scoring. Despite people saying that refs are quicker to whistle in today's game, FT attempts are down 15%.

That doesn't really demonstrate level of competition over the course of a 15 year career.

Correct, it was addressing the narrative about the defensive rules.

It's impossible to compare strength of opposing players. You can't use stats to do so. Players today certainly seem more athletic, but it's hard to say if they are better basketball players.

The NBA has worked to make the game less physical and to better allow perimeter players to get to the basket.

After Jordan's first three titles, the NBA added the punch rule. Throw a punch and automatically suspended. That was after the Knicks/Suns Basketbrawl.
Removed handchecking
Tightened flagrant foul calls
Made ejections more strict

From 98 to 03:
Added the clear path rule
Removed the forearm check
Added the no-charge area
Further tightened up forearm/hand checking rules
Zone defense allowed
Added more timeouts
Instant Replay added
Tightened up fouls, especially grabbing, picks, and screens

Post 03:
Tightened up techs and flagrants again


Pretty much all the rule changes over the past 30 years have been to create more offense, have less physical defense, and have less and smaller fights. All that benefits a guy like LeBron because it keeps defenders from being able to guard him as physically as Jordan was, especially how Jordan was in his first three titles. That't no discredit to LeBron, he's just playing the game and playing it as best he can and as well as pretty much everyone who has ever played.

No doubt it's less physical (don't see anything like the Pistons Bad Boys) which is partly due to the rules and partly due to the game being more perimeter oriented. The point though is that despite the rule changes, it hasn't had much of an effect on scoring. So I don't buy people's claim that Jordan would have scored a ton more in today's game.

The ironic thing about the rule changes meant to make it easier to drive to the basket is that perimeter players are staying more on the perimeter.

It's not nearly as bad as it once was (Isiah's Pistons or Riley's Knicks), but there has been a ton of grabbing/holding/pulling/pushing on the perimeter in these playoffs. If you're trying to get open around a screen, you will be held and pulled. If you're about to be screened, the screener will literally wrap their hands around you at times. The screener is often setting blatant moving screens (and I'm not talking about Bell's screen from last night - that was typical Harden BS). And there have been numerous reaching fouls that are seemingly never called. I feel like there has been a lot of very rough play this year.

Example: https://streamable.com/j8f9c

Perimeter players are driving plenty. But they are driving to set up threes now, however that wasn't always the case in the LeBron era.


Jordan may not score a lot more in today's game, but I bet he would be a lot more efficient of a scorer in today's game than he was in the 90s.

I'd put the Spurs and GSW far over anything the NBA was producing in the 1990s outside of the Bulls. The dominant teams of the 80s got old and the caliber of competion dropped off. The Bulls did continue to improve, but I thought their domination had every bit as much to do with the dropoff in elite teams

4 pages and not 1 objective metric at which one can point to say Lebron is better. Everyone wants to be part of history.

I still have Jordan above James, but if you just want an objective metric, then James is #1 and Jordan is #2 in VORP and Box Score Plus/Minus.

In what can be measured: (a) Jordan > Lebron from box scores based stats - its close, (b) Jordan > Lebron in Championships - its not close. Taken together, its certainly Jordan > Lebron

claym711 said:

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In what can be measured: (a) Jordan > Lebron from box scores based stats - its close, (b) Jordan > Lebron in Championships - its not close. Taken together, its certainly Jordan > Lebron

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Making individual comparisons based on team accomplishments is flawed. Jordan had far better players surrounding him and likely never reaches the Finals with the players Lebron has. When looking at more advanced metrics, the flaws in that criteria become even more evident.

Here's another metric that shows the comparison is a dead-heat: LeBron or MJ? How the King is settling the GOAT debate. Given that Lebron has reached the Finals, yet again, I believe he's passed Jordan for all-time Championships Added.

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One takeaway from comparing Jordan and James by championships added is that Jordan's current edge owes entirely to regular-season performance. Though James now has more career win shares than Jordan (he passed Jordan this season, moving into fourth all time behind Abdul-Jabbar, Chamberlain and Karl Malone), Jordan rates as adding more championships in the regular season because his value was more concentrated in his best seasons. That is to say, the contributions of MJ's greatest regular seasons were more valuable, while LeBron has made up ground in cumulative value.

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The two GOAT contenders are in a virtual deadlock in estimated championships added based on awards, the third component of the formula. Jordan (3.05) is ahead of James (3.01) due to his modest lead in career MVP shares. James will probably take the lead when this year's MVP voting is factored into the equation.

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That leaves playoff value as James' strongest argument. His 2.24 championships added in the playoffs are more than those of Jordan (2.05) and everyone else in league history. That might be tough to square with Jordan's six championships to James' three, and James' teams going 3-5 in the NBA Finals, but James comes out ahead for a couple of reasons.

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Second, for the most part, James' teams losing on the biggest stage can't be traced to his own performance. That tag was accurate in 2007, James' first Finals appearance at age 22, and in 2011, when he struggled badly as the Miami Heat lost to the Dallas Mavericks. Since then, as measured by my wins above replacement player (WARP) metric, James' performance in Finals his team lost (2014, 2015 and 2017) has compared favorably to Jordan's performance in his team's Finals wins -- and even to James' own during his three title seasons, when he's won three Finals MVP trophies. That makes six Finals in which James' performance has stacked up well with Jordan's performance.

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Plus, the league is tougher, from top to bottom, during the James era:

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Yet James' leagues still rate on average as 12 percent better than Jordan's, which makes sense given the influx of international talent in that span. I estimate the pool of talent from which the NBA draws players has grown by 28 percent since 2003, while the league has added just one team.

When I adjust for league quality, James is no longer merely on the verge of catching Jordan as the greatest player in cumulative value. He already has Jordan in his rearview mirror, with 4.66 total championships added to Jordan's 4.28.

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I don't think there's any definitive answer to the question of who is GOAT. It's simply wrong, though, to pretend that there's no valid argument to be made by either camp. If I had to pick one, I'd go with James, but I don't believe that it's clear either way.

That's incorrect. Lebron has had better teammates overall than Jordan, and it's really not even close.

Check PER on first page or for yourself. Although Pippen was an elite player, he gets far more credit than deserved, and that's not only reflected in his stats with Jordan, but his extreme fall after leaving the bulls. Wade + Bosh, and Kyrie + Love are both sets that were better than anything Jordan had. Lebron's opponents outside of Golden State and Prime Duncan were not as good either. Lebron has had a cake walk in the East to the finals. In the finals, he got destroyed by the Spurs twice, and GS once (likely twice), beaten by Dirk by himself, and by GS. He has had one Jordanesque finals in beating a historically great team in GS, although he deferred to Kyrie to hit the game winner and then missed a game clinching free throw. In his other finals wins, he sat out the final 2 minutes of a pivotal game 4 against the thunder, and then was saved from another certain loss by Ray Allen.

Ya that's really not true either. Even in stats you linked Jordan comes out ahead, and one must introduce an arbitrary metric related to overall league quality in order to put Lebron ahead. Cumulative stats like VORP have serious flaws that you can see in the extreme variance season-to-season. Other cumulative don't take into account Jordan's 1.5 year absence in the midst of his prime. Certainly the accumulation of stats factors into GOAT debate, but Lebron does not hold enough of a cumulative cushion over Jordan to overcome his shortfall in almost all metrics, including the ones you linked. Further, he has done it with better overall teammates. Lastly, Lebron's Numbers will retreat if he plays past his prime. He won't end up past Jordan in any of the primary metrics, nor championships.

Stats and rings and MVPs, 1st team all NBA, Finals MVP numbers, etc. is all somewhat helpful in the discussion, but comparing two players from different eras in a team sport makes those arguments subjective. (Comparing their respective teammates in the same way is just as subjective). Not to mention different coaches, in this case college tenure vs. direct to the NBA, modern nutrition and training versus previous, whatever.

What it all boils down to I think is (the question of which someone posed earlier) with all of the NBA players that have ever played included in a theoretical draft (and you know all of their actual NBA career info), and you have the first pick...who do you take?

Harden will win the award but Lebron is still da real MVP. Put him on any NBA team and they instantly become contenders.

I always thought Wilt should be included in these conversations.

A 50 point 25 rebound game is incredible. He averaged that over an entire season (80 games).

That's a level of absurd dominance for his era that MJ and Lebron can't touch.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html

Gator03 said:

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I always thought Wilt should be included in these conversations.

A 50 point 25 rebound game is incredible. He averaged that over an entire season (80 games).

That's a level of absurd dominance for his era that MJ and Lebron can't touch.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html

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Agreed.

(The most absurd part about his 50ppg 25rpg season is that he finished second in MVP voting to Bill Russell at 19ppg and 24rpg. Ridiculous.)

You can ignore any stats from the 60s. The team average for possession per game was 127 in 1961. It was 90 in 2002. And not only were there a ton of possessions, but the shooting was atrocious too. Wilt Chamberlain was the only player in the league to shoot 50% in 1960 (and he only shot 50%). So basically you had a bunch of guys running up and down the floor jacking up horrible shots as quickly as possible. That's why your rebounding leaders averaged 27 rpg, 24 rpg, 20 rpg, and 19 rpg.

During Wilt's 100 point game, his team was fouling the Knicks on every possession in order to get the ball back as quickly as possible. The final score of that game was 169-147. New York shot 41 free throws and had players with 39, 33, and 31 points, with two other in double figures. The game was a farce. On top of that, at the time you had 3 attempts to make 2 free throws.

I think that the NBA should be judged similar to baseball in a modern and a old era.

Some would make the cut off at the merger, but I prefer to make the cut off with the introduction of the 3-point line, which coincides with Magic and Bird joining the league.

The only real superstars that were active on both sides of that line as stars were Dr. J and Kareem.

The modern NBA just doesn't have that much similar to an 8-team league where you could trade two weeks of the Ice Capades for Bill Russell (yes, that's how the NBA Champion Celtics got him.)

Gator03 said:

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I always thought Wilt should be included in these conversations.

A 50 point 25 rebound game is incredible. He averaged that over an entire season (80 games).

That's a level of absurd dominance for his era that MJ and Lebron can't touch.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html

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I mean is it really that hard when you're playing against guys who drove trucks and worked in the mines in the off-season?

Goose said:

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Gator03 said:

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I always thought Wilt should be included in these conversations.

A 50 point 25 rebound game is incredible. He averaged that over an entire season (80 games).

That's a level of absurd dominance for his era that MJ and Lebron can't touch.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html

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Agreed.

(The most absurd part about his 50ppg 25rpg season is that he finished second in MVP voting to Bill Russell at 19ppg and 24rpg. Ridiculous.)

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Same season Oscar averaged his triple-double.

RetiredAg said:

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claym711 said:

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In what can be measured: (a) Jordan > Lebron from box scores based stats - its close, (b) Jordan > Lebron in Championships - its not close. Taken together, its certainly Jordan > Lebron

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Making individual comparisons based on team accomplishments is flawed. Jordan had far better players surrounding him and likely never reaches the Finals with the players Lebron has. When looking at more advanced metrics, the flaws in that criteria become even more evident.

Here's another metric that shows the comparison is a dead-heat: LeBron or MJ? How the King is settling the GOAT debate. Given that Lebron has reached the Finals, yet again, I believe he's passed Jordan for all-time Championships Added.

Quote:

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One takeaway from comparing Jordan and James by championships added is that Jordan's current edge owes entirely to regular-season performance. Though James now has more career win shares than Jordan (he passed Jordan this season, moving into fourth all time behind Abdul-Jabbar, Chamberlain and Karl Malone), Jordan rates as adding more championships in the regular season because his value was more concentrated in his best seasons. That is to say, the contributions of MJ's greatest regular seasons were more valuable, while LeBron has made up ground in cumulative value.

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The two GOAT contenders are in a virtual deadlock in estimated championships added based on awards, the third component of the formula. Jordan (3.05) is ahead of James (3.01) due to his modest lead in career MVP shares. James will probably take the lead when this year's MVP voting is factored into the equation.

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That leaves playoff value as James' strongest argument. His 2.24 championships added in the playoffs are more than those of Jordan (2.05) and everyone else in league history. That might be tough to square with Jordan's six championships to James' three, and James' teams going 3-5 in the NBA Finals, but James comes out ahead for a couple of reasons.

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Second, for the most part, James' teams losing on the biggest stage can't be traced to his own performance. That tag was accurate in 2007, James' first Finals appearance at age 22, and in 2011, when he struggled badly as the Miami Heat lost to the Dallas Mavericks. Since then, as measured by my wins above replacement player (WARP) metric, James' performance in Finals his team lost (2014, 2015 and 2017) has compared favorably to Jordan's performance in his team's Finals wins -- and even to James' own during his three title seasons, when he's won three Finals MVP trophies. That makes six Finals in which James' performance has stacked up well with Jordan's performance.

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Plus, the league is tougher, from top to bottom, during the James era:

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Yet James' leagues still rate on average as 12 percent better than Jordan's, which makes sense given the influx of international talent in that span. I estimate the pool of talent from which the NBA draws players has grown by 28 percent since 2003, while the league has added just one team.

When I adjust for league quality, James is no longer merely on the verge of catching Jordan as the greatest player in cumulative value. He already has Jordan in his rearview mirror, with 4.66 total championships added to Jordan's 4.28.

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I don't think there's any definitive answer to the question of who is GOAT. It's simply wrong, though, to pretend that there's no valid argument to be made by either camp. If I had to pick one, I'd go with James, but I don't believe that it's clear either way.

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Not true at all.
Lebron James has played on the most talented team in the Eastern Conference (with or without him) for the past 8 seasons.

2018 is the only year that statement could be contested.
Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love have all been franchise level players.

Michael Jordans Bulls teams did not overwhelm people because of their talent. Pippen was the only other star and his star is brightened by playing with Jordan.

Wade and Kyrie each won without Lebron. Scottie Pippen did not.

Look at the Bulls roster during their first three peat and then come back here and state with a straight face that Michael Jordan wouldn't win with Wade, Bosh, and Kyrie.
Outside of Pippen, and Horace Grant their rosters were not impressive at all.

What makes Jordan so amazing is that unlike Bird, Magic and Lebron he was NOT surrounded by a super team of Hall of Fame players that helped him win titles.

Stating that Michael Jordan played with far better players is patently false.
Michael Jordan played on much greater teams than any team Lebron has played on.

As great as Lebron is.....he has never really ever played on a dominant all time great basketball team.

The '94 Bulls lost in 7 to the knicks, who lost in 7 to the champion rockets. They were a good team but Pippen acted like a baby during the semifinals.

If you read Jordan Rules or watch Hoop Dreams you'll remember that circa 1990 MJ was considered by many to be a selfish player who took too many shots.

The Bulls got an all-time great coaching staff in place and a great team around him (even without MJ the '90s Bulls would've competed for eastern conference championships in my opinion).

But Lebron has played in a terrible conference, that is absolutely true. Big advantage for him.