Welcome back to the NBA Finals for an 8th straight year Lebron...
Lebron in this year's playoffs
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Last: 6 yr ago by Seven Costanza
goat.
The miles he has logged are astonishing. Not just number of games or minutes, but he's carried most of these teams statistically in every category and been the primary ballhandler down every stretch.
It can be argued that that is partly his own fault, but it's still incredibly impressive.
It can be argued that that is partly his own fault, but it's still incredibly impressive.
Cappo said:
goat.
Way to beat a team missing their two best players.
Seriously? Without James, the Cavs would've been knocked out by the Pacers in the first round. He can put a team on his back. Props to the Celtics for jacking up too many threes and forgetting how to finish at the rim.
-a Rockets fan who may have missed the sarcasm
-a Rockets fan who may have missed the sarcasm
He wins with the worst teams... This Cleveland team is NOT good but he's a monster and does what it takes.Junkhead said:Cappo said:
goat.
Way to beat a team missing their two best players.
If he isn't the goat, he is 1a and 1b with MJ
Seven Costanza said:
(Stolen from NBA Reddit):
LeBron led his team in points, rebounds, and assists last night for the 62nd time in the playoffs. The next closest are Duncan and Bird with 21.
Crazy. Speaks to both his all around game and lack of support around him (in Cleveland anyway).
In my opinion, he's the only player that could go to any team and immediately make them a playoff team. Durant and Harden, maybe. Anthony Davis should be there soon, too.
Lebron is clearly the second best ever.
linkdude said:
Seriously? Without James, the Cavs would've been knocked out by the Pacers in the first round. He can put a team on his back. Props to the Celtics for jacking up too many threes and forgetting how to finish at the rim.
-a Rockets fan who may have missed the sarcasm
Even with LeBron they almost lost to the Pacers in the first round. He's no doubt one of the greatest ever but this playoff run isn't the reason why.
Without James the cavs would have had the number 1 pick in the draft because they're roster is absolute garbage. They wouldn't be in the playoffs. All you need to do is look at the teams records when he leaves. They don't make the conference finals like when Jordan left.
Lebron is the GOAT
Lebron is the GOAT
****ing GOAT
No matter what your method of analysis, Jordan remains > Lebron.
Lebron is amazing to be sure, he's just not the best to ever play.
PER Career rankings for Jordan and Lebron, and their teammates and finals opponents.
1 MJ
2 Lebron
8 Durant
10 Barkley
12 Duncan
14 Westbrook
15 D Wade
16 Malone
17 Steph
28 Dirk
34 k Love
35 Stockton
60 Bosh
65 Manu
125 pippen
Other key pieces to MJs championships were Bill Cartwright, will Purdue, luc Longley, Toni kucok, bill winnington, Horace grant, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper
Lebron went to Wade, who had already won a ring, sat out a key 4th quarter stretch in one of his championships, and was saved by Ray Allen and Kyrie in the others. He has also had zero competition whatsoever in the East.
MJ took every clutch shot, won 3 in a row, went to play some baseball, then won 3 more in a row.
MJ: 172 40 point games. 30 50 point games. 5 60 point games.
Lebron: 75 40 point games. 10 50 point games. 0 60 point games
MJ: 6x finals MVP, 5x MVP, 1x DPOY, 2x Gold Metals, ROY,, national championship, college POY
Lebron: 3x finals MVP, 4x MVP, 2x Gold Metal, 1x Bronze,, ROY
Jordan'a Most iconic moments far surpass Lebrons.
Lebron is amazing to be sure, he's just not the best to ever play.
PER Career rankings for Jordan and Lebron, and their teammates and finals opponents.
1 MJ
2 Lebron
8 Durant
10 Barkley
12 Duncan
14 Westbrook
15 D Wade
16 Malone
17 Steph
28 Dirk
34 k Love
35 Stockton
60 Bosh
65 Manu
125 pippen
Other key pieces to MJs championships were Bill Cartwright, will Purdue, luc Longley, Toni kucok, bill winnington, Horace grant, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper
Lebron went to Wade, who had already won a ring, sat out a key 4th quarter stretch in one of his championships, and was saved by Ray Allen and Kyrie in the others. He has also had zero competition whatsoever in the East.
MJ took every clutch shot, won 3 in a row, went to play some baseball, then won 3 more in a row.
MJ: 172 40 point games. 30 50 point games. 5 60 point games.
Lebron: 75 40 point games. 10 50 point games. 0 60 point games
MJ: 6x finals MVP, 5x MVP, 1x DPOY, 2x Gold Metals, ROY,, national championship, college POY
Lebron: 3x finals MVP, 4x MVP, 2x Gold Metal, 1x Bronze,, ROY
Jordan'a Most iconic moments far surpass Lebrons.
LeBron lost to Dirk and a bunch of scrubs in the Finals when he had two all stars by his side. GOAT, my ass.
I think Lebron is amazing but there is ZERO chance he makes 8 straight finals having to go through the West every year.
Michael never played anyone in the East or faced a great opponent from the West. It took him 7 years just to make it to the finals and he had to have one of the greatest coaches of all time, another great player, and solid role players. Lebron has taken multiple teams who would have been the worst team in the league to the finals.
Let's not forget he took 2 games from the warriors, one of the best teams of all time, without Kevin love and kyrie.
In the series some claim that he had to have Kyrie win, he led the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocked shots.
Jordan had to score. Lebron has to coach, score, rebound, set the offense, etc.
Name one team that if you put Lebron on that bulls roster, Lebron wouldn't have beat that Jordan did.
Competition matters and Lebron has faced way better.
Let's not forget he took 2 games from the warriors, one of the best teams of all time, without Kevin love and kyrie.
In the series some claim that he had to have Kyrie win, he led the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocked shots.
Jordan had to score. Lebron has to coach, score, rebound, set the offense, etc.
Name one team that if you put Lebron on that bulls roster, Lebron wouldn't have beat that Jordan did.
Competition matters and Lebron has faced way better.
I get why people feel the need to try to compare Jordan and LeBron, but two very different players who played different positions on the court. Who played in different eras. LeBron would have fit right in during the more physical game of the 90's. Jordan if he got to play with the current rules in his prime, seems like he'd have been even more unstoppable than he was with the old rules. Jordan was also so incredible, he took a year and a half off to go play minor league baseball in his early thirties, and then came back and immediately was the best basketball player in the world again, which is ridiculous.
In terms of being just an absolutely vicious cold-hearted obsessive competitor who not only wanted to win but wanted to humiliate you, I give Jordan the edge. Kobe was more like MJ in that regard than LeBron generally has been IMO.
Having had the privilege of watching them both, they clearly are 1a and 1b in my book at this point. The 8 straight Finals appearances for LeBron is amazing no matter how you slice it. Had Jordan not take those two seasons off to go play baseball, wouldn't have surprised me if he would have won 8 straight titles with the Bulls.
In terms of being just an absolutely vicious cold-hearted obsessive competitor who not only wanted to win but wanted to humiliate you, I give Jordan the edge. Kobe was more like MJ in that regard than LeBron generally has been IMO.
Having had the privilege of watching them both, they clearly are 1a and 1b in my book at this point. The 8 straight Finals appearances for LeBron is amazing no matter how you slice it. Had Jordan not take those two seasons off to go play baseball, wouldn't have surprised me if he would have won 8 straight titles with the Bulls.
Cross era player comparisons are so dumb and an epic waste of time but I love it.
Sure Lebron wouldn't have made 8 straight finals if he were in the West. But who cares? It's irrelevant. 90's basketball was arguably the weakest era ever given the massive expansion and dilution of talent that occurred between 88 and 95... doesn't diminish what Jordan did. He was incredible during that run just like Lebron is during his run right now.
Sure Lebron wouldn't have made 8 straight finals if he were in the West. But who cares? It's irrelevant. 90's basketball was arguably the weakest era ever given the massive expansion and dilution of talent that occurred between 88 and 95... doesn't diminish what Jordan did. He was incredible during that run just like Lebron is during his run right now.
tmaggie50 said:
Michael never played anyone in the East or faced a great opponent from the West.
Pumpkinhead said:
I get why people feel the need to try to compare Jordan and LeBron, but two very different players who played different positions on the court. Who played in different eras. LeBron would have fit right in during the more physical game of the 90's. Jordan if he got to play with the current rules in his prime, seems like he'd have been even more unstoppable than he was with the old rules. Jordan was also so incredible, he took a year and a half off to go play minor league baseball in his early thirties, and then came back and immediately was the best basketball player in the world again, which is ridiculous.
In terms of being just an absolutely vicious cold-hearted obsessive competitor who not only wanted to win but wanted to humiliate you, I give Jordan the edge. Kobe was more like MJ in that regard than LeBron generally has been IMO.
Having had the privilege of watching them both, they clearly are 1a and 1b in my book at this point. The 8 straight Finals appearances for LeBron is amazing no matter how you slice it. Had Jordan not take those two seasons off to go play baseball, wouldn't have surprised me if he would have won 8 straight titles with the Bulls.
Jordan actually couldn't even make it to the conference finals his first year back, granted it was a short year. The year before that, the bulls actually had a better regular season without Jordan and went just as far in the playoffs.
Random thoughts without a point: I still have Jordan above James by a fair amount at this point. I don't think it's just a matter of championships, though. Your competition does matter. If the late-90s Jazz had been Stockton, Malone, and Shaq, then Jordan would likely only have 3 championships.Likewise, the East has been awful and has given LeBron the opportunity for 8 straight Finals. I think it starts to be a legitimate debate if he can somehow pull off another championship this year. And if he keeps up this production for 4 more years, the longevity has to be factored in too.
Jordan came back near the end of that regular season in late March. He had not played NBA basketball for 13 months. He nearly had a triple double in his very first game after not playing for 13 months. It was pretty ridiculous how immediately good he still was despite having taken a detour in minor league baseball.tmaggie50 said:Pumpkinhead said:
I get why people feel the need to try to compare Jordan and LeBron, but two very different players who played different positions on the court. Who played in different eras. LeBron would have fit right in during the more physical game of the 90's. Jordan if he got to play with the current rules in his prime, seems like he'd have been even more unstoppable than he was with the old rules. Jordan was also so incredible, he took a year and a half off to go play minor league baseball in his early thirties, and then came back and immediately was the best basketball player in the world again, which is ridiculous.
In terms of being just an absolutely vicious cold-hearted obsessive competitor who not only wanted to win but wanted to humiliate you, I give Jordan the edge. Kobe was more like MJ in that regard than LeBron generally has been IMO.
Having had the privilege of watching them both, they clearly are 1a and 1b in my book at this point. The 8 straight Finals appearances for LeBron is amazing no matter how you slice it. Had Jordan not take those two seasons off to go play baseball, wouldn't have surprised me if he would have won 8 straight titles with the Bulls.
Jordan actually couldn't even make it to the conference finals his first year back, granted it was a short year. The year before that, the bulls actually had a better regular season without Jordan and went just as far in the playoffs.
Once he knocked the rust off, he dominated the League again for the next 3 seasons.
Look, LeBron is extremely impressive. Jordan was equally impressive if you were someone who also watched NBA back then. From his infamous 'Flu' game, to his retirement, to the wagging tongue that was the sign he was about to go off on somebody. And Jordan dominated the entire NBA for an extended time, not just one half of it.
Quote:
"I'm back."
After a about a year-and-a-half away from the NBA, Michael Jordan issued that famous, brief press release to announce his return to the game during the 1994-95 season. A day later, on March 19, 1995, M.J. suited up for the Bulls against the Indiana Pacers, wearing the No. 45 because his iconic No. 23 had been retired by Chicago after his retirement.
Despite having spent his break from the game focused on baseball, Jordan finished with 19 points, 6 rebounds, and 6 assists, just confirming how much better than everyone else he still was.
Quote:
Even though he shot poorly (7-28) from the field, it's pretty remarkable how Jordan was able to drop a near triple-double in his first game after 17 months away from the game. We've seen how long it takes players to get comfortable after an injury keeps them out for a month; Jordan missed a whole season, then more than half of another season, and came back like nothing ever happened.
19/6/6 is near a triple double?
If LeBron beats at team like the Warriors or Rockets all by his lonesome, I'd probably think about personally ranking him above Jordan at that point. As of now, I've personally still got MJ as 1a and LeBron as my 1b. But both Jordan and LeBron are/were simply amazing and I don't think anybody is going out on some limb ranking one of those guys above the other, whatever your particular ranking order is.Seven Costanza said:
Random thoughts without a point: I still have Jordan above James by a fair amount at this point. I don't think it's just a matter of championships, though. Your competition does matter. If the late-90s Jazz had been Stockton, Malone, and Shaq, then Jordan would likely only have 3 championships.Likewise, the East has been awful and has given LeBron the opportunity for 8 straight Finals. I think it starts to be a legitimate debate if he can somehow pull off another championship this year. And if he keeps up this production for 4 more years, the longevity has to be factored in too.
He dropped a 55 point game in just his 5th game back from retirement. And the dude had been trying to become a baseball player for the previous 13 months.drewbie08 said:
19/6/6 is near a triple double?
https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/video/otd-mj-scores-55-points-fifth-game-back-retirement
claym711 said:
MJ: 172 40 point games. 30 50 point games. 5 60 point games.
Lebron: 75 40 point games. 10 50 point games. 0 60 point games.
Lol sorting by high point games is not a valid way to compare players.
And you can't knock jordan's Teammates. They literally made the ECF without him.
At the same time, I don't think it's fair to knock lebron's Teammates bc he literally hand picks every player he plays with.
If both Jordan and LeBron were available in the same draft, which one do you pick as your franchise player?
I still remember watching Jordan hit that game-winning shot against Atlanta in his fourth game back. In 2 of his first 3 games, he had gone 7-28 and 7-23 from the field. Then he has a great game against Atlanta with a buzzer beater, followed by scoring 55 in the next game against the Knicks.
I'm not arguing it was incredible how quickly Jordan returned to form. But saying he nearly had a triple double his first game back isn't quite accurate.
19 6 and 6 isn't even close to a triple double. Given his 28 shots it's clear he pressed the entire game (rightfully so). That's not an impressive stat line. That's a diff argument for a diff day.
most of what you just said plays to the aura around MJ. The tongue. The flu. The iconic statements. Etc. He was the superstar in the perfect time as marketing changed and he became the face of sports. It's not possible to capture that again with everyone having so many different outlets for exposure.
most of what you just said plays to the aura around MJ. The tongue. The flu. The iconic statements. Etc. He was the superstar in the perfect time as marketing changed and he became the face of sports. It's not possible to capture that again with everyone having so many different outlets for exposure.
mavsfan4ever said:claym711 said:
MJ: 172 40 point games. 30 50 point games. 5 60 point games.
Lebron: 75 40 point games. 10 50 point games. 0 60 point games.
Lol sorting by high point games is not a valid way to compare players.
And you can't knock jordan's Teammates. They literally made the ECF without him.
At the same time, I don't think it's fair to knock lebron's Teammates bc he literally hand picks every player he plays with.
Agree with most of this. Scottie Pippin, MJs greatest advocate for him being the GOAT, even says "they didn't ask MJ to do a whole lot. Just to score. And he did that better than anyone."
Lebron has been the best player in the league for a longer period of time than MJ ever was and I think there is an even separation between Lebron and the next best as there was with MJ and the next best.
Lebron made it to the finals when he was 14 years old playing with guys you wouldn't even take at the YMCA
The one thing I disagree with is that I do think you can talk bad about Lebrons teammates. Even though he may have had a hand in picking most of them, this isn't an argument of whose the better GM.
Also, let's add another point. The atrocious coaches Lebron has had.
Note taken with the triple double comment.tmaggie50 said:
19 6 and 6 isn't even close to a triple double. Given his 28 shots it's clear he pressed the entire game (rightfully so). That's not an impressive stat line. That's a diff argument for a diff day.
most of what you just said plays to the aura around MJ. The tongue. The flu. The iconic statements. Etc. He was the superstar in the perfect time as marketing changed and he became the face of sports. It's not possible to capture that again with everyone having so many different outlets for exposure.
I also wonder how Jordan would have fared in the current internet age and social media. My recollection, not going to spend time researching, is he often would go out on gambling adventures, even sometimes late the night before playoff games.
In LAST YEAR's finals, I actually thought Kevin Durant was close to looking like the better player than LeBron. At least in that series. I haven't been as impressed though with Durant this particular post-season.tmaggie50 said:mavsfan4ever said:claym711 said:
MJ: 172 40 point games. 30 50 point games. 5 60 point games.
Lebron: 75 40 point games. 10 50 point games. 0 60 point games.
Lol sorting by high point games is not a valid way to compare players.
And you can't knock jordan's Teammates. They literally made the ECF without him.
At the same time, I don't think it's fair to knock lebron's Teammates bc he literally hand picks every player he plays with.
Agree with most of this. Scottie Pippin, MJs greatest advocate for him being the GOAT, even says "they didn't ask MJ to do a whole lot. Just to score. And he did that better than anyone."
Lebron has been the best player in the league for a longer period of time than MJ ever was and I think there is an even separation between Lebron and the next best as there was with MJ and the next best.
Lebron made it to the finals when he was 14 years old playing with guys you wouldn't even take at the YMCA
The one thing I disagree with is that I do think you can talk bad about Lebrons teammates. Even though he may have had a hand in picking most of them, this isn't an argument of whose the better GM.
Also, let's add another point. The atrocious coaches Lebron has had.
Pumpkinhead said:Note taken with the triple double comment.tmaggie50 said:
19 6 and 6 isn't even close to a triple double. Given his 28 shots it's clear he pressed the entire game (rightfully so). That's not an impressive stat line. That's a diff argument for a diff day.
most of what you just said plays to the aura around MJ. The tongue. The flu. The iconic statements. Etc. He was the superstar in the perfect time as marketing changed and he became the face of sports. It's not possible to capture that again with everyone having so many different outlets for exposure.
I also wonder how Jordan would have fared in the current internet age and social media. My recollection, not going to spend time researching, is he often would go out on gambling adventures, even sometimes late the night before playoff games.
That's an interesting thought. It was certainly a different time and he was no angel. I wonder if he would have been more of a villain than the second coming he is. When you look at how other players have been characterized, I think he would have been labeled a "bad boy" for the NBA. Fighting teammates. Difficult to get along with because he was so competitive. Heavy gambler. Etc.
That would be a tough call. Jordan is definitely the more explosive scorer, and overall a better perimeter defender. Meanwhile LeBron can play any position on the court at a super high level.drewbie08 said:
If both Jordan and LeBron were available in the same draft, which one do you pick as your franchise player?
I think I'd go with LeBron to start a team because of the versatility, that would be my deciding factor to start a franchise, even though I'd still rank Jordan as 1a in the GOAT conversation.
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